New rabbit fat and tiny poos

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by zupper, Dec 12, 2019.

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  1. Dec 12, 2019 #1

    zupper

    zupper

    zupper

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    Hi. My new rabbit is 2 year old and is very fat, his belly is just very big, he has some fat around his bum too, He's back is not that fat, nice and round but I can't feel too much fat on it I can feel his spine and ribs.
    He looks healthy and grooms himself quite well his feet are spotless, but his poos are very tiny and not a perfect shape. But he eats his food, not much maybe it's just first days in a new place but he eats vegs well and some hay too.
    I didn't want to make big changes it's only day 2 but I think his food is totally wrong, it's a muesli type mix with grains and he gets lots of treats blocks and balls with dairy and grains, honestly his poos are very tiny but looks like it is normal for him as he started pooping only 2 hours after we got home there were 2 small drop shaped poos and about 15 more in a couple hours, he eats and moves around fine, he likes to be petted and handled, he was thumping last evening a lot and looked a bit stressed but then flopped and slept well. In the morning there were no fresh poos at all, I removed all his dairy/grainy balls from his cage, I still give him his muesli mix removed some flakes from it and added my regular nuggets instead, just a little I am going to transfer him to them gradually.

    In the evening he had more poos in his toilet, they weren't that black as previously but shape is still weird, like drop-shaped or even cubes. I think it's because of his food is unsuitable bt he likes it I am trying to reduce it and remove flakes and added some my own pellets so I can change gradually, but he won't eat them only eats his loops. But he eats vegetables pretty well, I've got some kale and baby corn from his previous owner and he ate corn with appetite but I am not sure it is good for him so I won't give him more. Today he finished his kale and I gave him a couple of sticks of celery with plenty of green leaves, he ate it all. He eats his hay too.

    I've decided to minimise his dry food and no treats just give him more hay for a few days, but these tiny black poos just scare me but I believe it's his normal style.
    He is a very calm rabbit and friendly likes being petted and handled, he's calm and confident not looking sick or anything I don't know if it's normal for him but it's really weird poos.

    I fostered a little lionhead once he was also on grain sticks and dairy treats and his poos were also black and drop-shaped, but he was very tiny and didn't eat much at all, after a couple months of a good diet he was all good and his appetite and his poos vere excellent, so hopefully this new rabbit will be good too.

    I just can't believe he survived 2 years on this food I feel sorry for him.

    In this photo you can see his poos black and irregular shape, on the right are three perfect poos of my 3 month old babies I put there to compare, they are even bigger than some of his poos. He also had lots of cecotropes left in his toilet last evening but that probably because of new home and all, first I thought he can't reach his behind so can't eat them but later I saw him getting them and eating so that's good.

    This evening 2nd day there's no cecotropes left so I think it was just stress.

    So I am going to change his food gradually to plain pellets, feed him leafy greens as my other rabbits, celery usually, cauliflower leaves, cilantro, mint basil etc, little gem lettuce sometimes. No carrots, apples and other treats until he's better.

    Any criticism or suggestions would be appreciated.

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  2. Dec 12, 2019 #2

    zupper

    zupper

    zupper

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    Went to check on him and found a large sticky poo on his back, had to clean it with water and dry, after that he produced one more in his litter box it was stinky and weird, wet no mucus no diarrhea but very big stinky zeppelin. I didn't take photo but found something similar in google, maybe a bit bigger, about an inch long.
    https://binkybunny.com/forums/topic/weird-wet-bunny-poops-pic-reposted/
    No small poos at all, I've changed his litter now to see what new poos he will produce.

    Could be stress or maybe too much vegetables? He had a handful of kale and two full sticks of celery during the day, with green leaves. Also I gave him his dry food coloured loops I removed peas flakes and grains, added a little bit of plain pellets but he only ate his old loops. He ate hay during the day and drunk about 70 ml of water (bottled still water low calcium )

    No cecotropes, no dry poos, his stomach is quite large and soft, I did 10 mins massage a few times during the day. He had dry poos during the day, lighter not black as last evening as he ate more hay today, but still smaller than normal and drop-shaped mostly. No mucus.

    Also one very weird thing. After I cleaned his back he was a bit stressed after that, I put him on my knee for another massage and when I had my finger near his spine on the left side on his back little bit higher than where are the bottom ribs there was something like vibrating in this spot only it was so weird lasted a few minutes feeling like there's an alien inside really scary. What that could be? Maybe nerves or parasites?

    He was an indoor rabbit but also using backyard he is vaccinated I was told.

    I will try to call his family tomorrow they said that he's healthy but I think there are some problems or maybe just stress from changing homes, but his poos were tiny drop-shaped yesterday evening, I never saw normal poos yet.
     
  3. Dec 12, 2019 #3

    Apollo’s Slave

    Apollo’s Slave

    Apollo’s Slave

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    Muesli is not good for rabbits at all. Changing to a Timothy hay based rabbit pellets will be much better for him and he’ll probably like them a lot more. And I don’t think dairy is good for rabbit either. The diet for my one year old rabbit is, a lot of hay (unlimited) and unlimited water. A handful of veggies twice a day and 1/8 cup of pellets. I changed Apollo’s diet from non hay based pellets to Timothy based the moment he came home with me. It’s sounds like he might be quite skittish and gets stressed easily (as most rabbits as you probably know), so I wouldn’t change his pellets for now but just stop giving it to him for a few days. His poop is probably that shaped because he isn’t getting enough hay and fibre. I would stop the muesli/pellets and leave out the two celery sticks during the day. If you are afraid he isn’t eating the hay, maybe try switching to a different type like meadow or orchard grass or Timothy if you don’t already.
    If this continues, I would get him to a vet just to be sure that everything is okay with him. I’m not an expert and this is just what I’d do personally. Hope this helped. I’d love to know how he gets on
     
  4. Dec 12, 2019 #4

    zupper

    zupper

    zupper

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    Yeah I know muesli is not good but he won't eat plain pellets at all so my idea was to mix them with his muesli so he can get used to them gradually. I removed all diary and grain balls he loved them but no. First I did exactly as you suggested I stopped muesli and gave more hay and put some straw in as well he probably never saw straw before but he liked it, I thought some extra fibre would be good for him. I have a half bag of his usual hay it's orchard I think he eats it and gave him some meadow hay what I usually use too. In the evening I found 9 dry poos in his toilet, they were better colour not black and better shape like more round but still very small. 9 dry poos that's a very little outcome! And he produced 3-4 big soft zeppelins I removed them I think they were his cecotropes just not fully formed, they were very stinky and sticky.
    After I've changed his litter to see his new poos and removed those 9 dry poos and soft zeppelins a few hours later, his litter box was empty from 5am to 10am and it looked like he was sitting there and trying but nothing came out. I was really scared and gave him a handful of his muesli, he immediately started munching them I gave him another celery stick with leaves too and he ate leaves with appetite but left stick for later.
    At 3pm I checked him again there are dry poos in his litter box, maybe 20-30 but small again, at least I am happy he produced some. I am going to give him his muesli again with plain pellets mixed in and celery greens, he has plenty of hay and straw there too.

    Thank you very much for your input, I will keep posting here. He is not skittish I covered his cage first and wanted to leave him alone but he was thumping seeking attention so I brushed him and he liked it removed some small knots from his bum, he liked it did belly massages a few times yesterday he liked it, he likes being handled actually.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  5. Dec 13, 2019 #5

    zupper

    zupper

    zupper

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    Some info on bloating and remedies
    -------------
    Bloat

    What causes bloat ?
    Not a disease but it is a symptom of various diseases – see Mucoid Enteritis, Bacterial Enteritis, GI Stasis, and Coccidia for more details.

    What are the symptoms of bloat?
    *quickly becomes fatal!! *Chance of survival is low!! rabbit becomes lethargic, stops eating and drinking, eyes may appear to be sunken in, fur will look dull and lifeless, stomach will be noticeably swelled on both sides of the body, may have diarrhea (with or without mucous presence) or may have constipation.

    What are the medicinal treatments for bloat?
    Sub-Q Hydration Therapy & Reglan for pain relief (requires Vet Rx).

    What are the homeopathic treatments for bloat?
    Push *room temperature* fluids orally via syringe- mix of 3cc Probiotic, 3cc Electrolytes, 6-8 drops Infants Colic or Gas Drops into 6-10cc warm water, given 2-6x daily (up to 24cc per day), also try to get the rabbit to move around as much as possible, and offer as much gentle stomach massage as he will tolerate…. ALSO – Birch bark and Chamomile will relieve pain, Blackberry is for diarrhea, Dandelion, Celery, Dill, will increase appetite, Plantain aids in diarrhea as well as helps gas and regulates gut mobility – as will Fennel, Grass, Licorice (Anise), Oats, and Raspberry leaf’s and twigs.

    How can bloat be prevented?
    Offer unlimited, consistent daily amounts of high-fiber hay, do not introduce any new foods or treats and do not switch brands of feed for kits 3-14wks old, offer un-sprayed / non-chemically treated Willow Tree leaf’s and branches/twigs daily… wean kits slowly and properly …. Avoid any forms of stress-inducing situations – such as changing cages, loud noises, unfamiliar visitors, and travel.

    https://rabbitpedia.com/rabbit-health/bloat/
     
  6. Dec 13, 2019 #6

    zupper

    zupper

    zupper

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    About ileus (GI stasis)

    Gastrointestinal stasis, GI stasis, GI hypomotility or ileus is a serious condition that requires immediate attention. The condition occurs when the gut stops moving, is blocked, or is full of gas.

    Symptoms
    • Loss of appetite (anorexia) or changes in eating habits. A good way to test this is to offer fresh herbs or a favorite treat.
    • Small to no stool, loose or mucous covered stool or diarrhea.
    • Sitting in a hunched position or pressing stomach against the floor.
    • Loud tooth grinding which is an indication of pain. This is different than the "tooth purr" that indicates pleasure or contentment.
    • Loud GI sounds or complete silence in the stomach. You can use a stethoscope or listen with your ear pressed against the stomach.
    Causes
    • Stress. Examples of stressful events include changes in housing, introduction of new rabbits or other pets, recent illness, trauma, or surgery.[1]
    • Dehydration.
    • Lack of dietary fiber. Rabbits whose regular diet consists primarily of pelleted feeds are at higher risk of developing GI stasis as the pellets are usually high in calories (high in digestible carbohydrates), low in fiber, high in protein, and highly digestible.[1] Similarly, rabbits routinely fed large amounts of high-simple carbohydrate, high-fat treats such as nuts, seeds, baked goods, and fruits are also predisposed to GI stasis.[1] Acute episodes of GI stasis and dysbiosis are common following ingestion of a large volume of these treats.[1]
    Diagnosis
    Gastrointestinal stasis can be usually diagnosed as non-obstructive or obstructive ileus.

    Non-obstructive Obstructive
    Clinical Signs

    • Gradual onset (days to weeks).
    • Gradual reduction in fecal size and output.
    • Crave fiber.
    • Initially bright; gradual onset of depression and abdominal pain.
    • Mild to moderate dehydration.
    • Sudden onset (24-48 hours).
    • Fecal output stops abruptly.
    • Severe depression.
    • Abdominal pain.
    • Reluctance to move.
    • Symptoms of shock.
    • Severe dehydration.
    • Death in 24-48 hours.
    Radiographic findings
    • Compacted material in stomach and sometimes caecum, often with halo of gas.
    • As symptoms progress, entire GI tract gas-filled. Stomach usually last to bloat.
    • Fluid present only late in disease.
    • Fluid and gas present cranial to obstruction.
    • Bubbles of gas in stomach with no halo.
    • If cecal obstruction, fluid and bubbles of air in cecum.
    When palpating an affected rabbit's stomach, the stomach usually feels firm and doughy and remains pitted on compression. Rabbits with GI stasis have few or no gut sounds.

    Treatment
    You should seek immediate veterinary assistance if your rabbit has not eaten or passed stools in the past 12 hours or is exhibiting other symptoms of GI stasis. Your vet will provide proper treatment and care. If left untreated, GI stasis can be fatal in 48 hours.

    The key principles in the treatment of GI stasis are the following:
    • rehydrating the rabbit and stomach contents
    • restoring appetite
    • correcting electrolyte imbalances
    • stimulating gastric emptying
    • promoting normal gastrointestinal motility
    • softening and lubricating impacted food and hair
    • alleviating pain
    • providing nutrition
    • treating any underlying disorders
    Rabbits should receive fluids either intravenous, intraosseous, or subcutaneously, depending on the severity of dehydration. Stomach contents can also be rehydrated by assisted feeding with a syringe. Two commercial products available for this purpose include Oxbow Critical Care for Herbivores and Sherwood Forest SARx. If these formulas are not available, blended pellets soaked with water or an oral electrolyte solution can be used. Pureed vegetables or baby foods are also an option, but these foods are not sufficiently high in fiber. Force feeding these formulas can help prevent hepatic lipidosis, which can develop quickly in a rabbit with a negative energy balance.
    ...
    At-home treatment
    For at-home initial treatment when you first notice symptoms, you can do the following:
    • Check the temperature of your rabbit rectally. Normal rectal rabbit temperature should be 38.5–40°C (103.3–104°F).
    • Check the consistency of your bunny's belly. A dehydrated rabbit will feel doughy. A normal rabbit will have the consistency of a balloon. A bloated rabbit will feel like an overfilled balloon. If your rabbit is bloated, please find your nearest emergency vet and start treatment promptly.
    • For an acute gas attack, feed 1 to 2 cc of infant simethicone (20 mg/mL suspension) to your rabbit (all sizes) every hour for the first three hours, then every three to eight hours.[3] This product is easily obtainable in the baby sections in a drugstore, pharmacy, or supermarket as a liquid suspension or 125 mg gel capsules. A bunny can safely receive the contents of half a capsule at the rate described above.
      Simethicone has no known drug interactions and is not absorbed through the intestinal lining. It acts only on a mechanical principle: it changes the surface tension of the frothy gas bubbles in the gut, joining them into larger, easier-to-pass bubbles.[3] While this treatment alone will not return function to the intestinal tract, it appears to have no ill effects.

    • Try to keep your bunny hydrated to help break up any masses in the stomach. Offer up herbal teas and cold wet fresh vegetables nearby within easy access if your rabbit does not seem to want to move.
      How to help
    • Making sure that the stomach is not hard with an obstruction, reach under your rabbit's belly and gently massage your rabbit's abdomen to help stimulate the muscle and break up gas bubbles. Pocket vibrators and vibrating toothbrushes are also great for this purpose. Be sure to keep any massage gentle as an aggressive massage can cause torsion, internal bleeding, or rupture organs. Elevating the hindquarters a few inches can also help any gas pass more easily.
    • Make a heat pad available to your rabbit to lay its stomach on. Heat can help prevent your rabbit from going into shock. A heating pad, a plastic bottle full of hot water, or a SnuggleSafe disc should be wrapped in a towel to prevent burns.
    • Keep a quiet environment away from predators and barking dogs.
    For the following tips, only feed without a veterinary visit if your rabbit is swallowing and not refusing the syringe:

    • A gut motility drug such as cisapride (Propulsid) or metoclopramide (Reglan) can be given to get your rabbit's GI tract working again only if there is no blockage. The dosage is 0.1cc per pound of body weight....
    [​IMG]
    https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Gastrointestinal_stasishttps://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Gastrointestinal_stasis
     
  7. Dec 13, 2019 #7

    Apollo’s Slave

    Apollo’s Slave

    Apollo’s Slave

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    That’s good that he’s getting a little better. At least you know that he’s digesting. It’s great that he likes being handled! Apollo kicks and runs all over the place when I start to pick him up so I have to let go to make sure he isn’t hurting himself!
    Best of luck
     
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  8. Dec 13, 2019 #8

    zupper

    zupper

    zupper

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    So, it is end of day 3 in his new home, now situation looks like under control but was quite bad.

    His owner didn't tell me that he had any health problems when I asked she said he's all good, but wasn't true. When I saw him first I said oh that's one really fat rabbit, but the truth was that he was just all bloated just like this white rabbit in photo from wiki. He didn't make any poos for the first 2 hours then there were just two black very tiny poos irregular shape, I didn't know him and thought he just needs some space and let him be for a few hours. When I came to check him his litter box was still empty. In a fer hours there were 9 small black drop-shaped poos and I realised there's something really wrong with him. I removed his food and snacks (all dairy-based with lots of grain and corn and peas flakes and fresh baby corn for vegetables). I just didn't want to change anything in his first day home but I was going to change his food gradually, I simply was surprised that he eats such unhealthy food and looks quite nice and round. Well I've noticed that his back isn't fat, but he had a very big soft belly. His back feels normal I can feel his spine and ribs, if she'd tell me he's bloating I'd act differently of course, I just thought it is all normal for him just nice lazy fat rabbit. Well I understand she didn't want me to know he's unwell because maybe I wouldn't take him but really that wasn't nice of her he could easily die I am really disappointed it was cruel.

    Okay so I realised he's very sick only next evening, did some research and tried to help him. He wasn't lethargic but wasn't active, he ate some food and hay but there were a very few poos in his box, and he was mainly sitting in his toilet staring into his wall all hunched and I heard he's grinding his teeth time to time. When laying on his belly he was trying to find comfortable position and also in his toilet.

    I removed his food and snacks, gave him a plenty of hay and water but he didn't eat/drink much. Gave him fresh celery sticks with plenty of green leaves, soaked in water he ate them, then went out got him fresh mint and cilantro, also soaked in water, he probably never had mint as he smelled it first and left it but after he tried a little and now he eats it with appetite, that's great as he also gets water with it and mint is good for digestion as well.

    So day 2 was on hay and fresh greens, celery, mint, coriander, a couple of cauliflower leaves too. Today (day 3) was the same. e was like feeling a bit better but in the evening again looked very unhappy sitting hunched back in his toilet and there were 3-4-5 large sticky smelly soft poos I believe his cecals not fully formed. And his stomach was very big again.

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    I've ordered simethicone but will only get it Monday, but today I made some tea with fennel seeds also good as gas drops, I gave him every couple hours and it helped, he was hungry and ate some hay and all greens, I gave him mint/cilantro/celery every couple hours soaked with water. In the morning I gave him 40 plain pellets in his food bowl, he ate 34 of them by 9 pm. I made a few toys out of hay and he liked them, started eating more hay.

    So, it is about 40 hours at home now, he's definitely better, his stomach is much smaller now and he eats hay, his poos are little bigger and more round in shape, also not black anymore as he eats hay and no or very little dry food, greens as well but he eats hay thankfully now.

    I did belly massages yesterday every couple hours he was so weak.

    Hopefully the worst part is over, now will keep him on hay and greens for a couple days, going to give him maybe 50 plain pellets daily and then we'll see.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
  9. Dec 18, 2019 #9

    zupper

    zupper

    zupper

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    Hi, just to let you know that' he's doing great and today is his 8th day in his new home. First 3-4 days were a nightmare and I honestly thought he won't survive, his poos were so tiny, sometimes only very few and all signs of bloating/blockage. I've completely changed his diet, he got belly massages a few times a day and fennel water for gas, things started getting better on day 5 and now hs poos are nearly perfect, he eats/drinks well and a very good rabbit overall. I've got simethicone on Monday but fennel drops worked so well I've decided to continue with them so will have this extra just in case for the future. Very happy now, thanks for your support.
     
  10. Dec 18, 2019 #10

    zupper

    zupper

    zupper

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    And he's not fat at all, he was just bloating badly and his owner didn't say a thing so I only realised he's sick next evening as his poos were very tiny and deformed.
     

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