Need help with Big Sis and babies

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jil101ca

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Yesterday morning I noticed that Big Sis didn't seem herself. I've been watching her very close asshe is a full sister to the doe I lost on Dec 31. She isnot moving,not eating, not drinking, not feeding her 7 days old kits.She had 10 but the little funny coloured one didn't make it. He died the night before this all started.She is not grinding her teeth and I am amazed at the body condition she has lost in justunder 2 days.The kits are also losing their chubbiness very fast.

I don't know if I am doing right but I have forced feed her a slurry and electrolyts and hand fed the babies after trying to get them to nurse off her, it appears that she has no milk left, the babies went from nipple to nipple kinda of franticly.It took a lot to get the babies to nurse from a bottle. I am assuming this because it is so different for them.When we (hubby helped)were done.their little bellys had something in them(slightly round)but not as fat as I hink they should be. How much is enough for them? do their bellys need to be as fat (bursting)as when she was feeding them? It took us almost 3 hrs to feed them.

I'm afraid she is dying and don't know what else to do. the vets around here won't even look at her, they don't do rabbits. any help would be appreciated, please...Her sister died when her kits were 4weeks.
 
Yes, definitly keep giving her lots of pedialyte and pellet slurry.

I'm not sure what the underlying problem is, as all of these are symptoms of some sort of problem.

Keep getting the babies to nurse off of mom, if the demand of nursing babies stops, her milk will dry up for sure. It is normal for the babies to switch from nipple to nipple, but they are probably not getting as much milk as before. So keep getting mom to feed them, then follow up with a hand feeding.

Keeping mom hydrated will make a big difference, so keep giving lots of pedialyte, as much as she'll take.

--Dawn
 
to get her to nurse i have to flip her over,which she allows by just lying there.totally out of character for her.She won't let the babies go under her at all. She does sit in the box a lot but presses herself down so they can't get under.

i am syringing the electrolites. how do I know when it is enough? She doesn't fight it at all and I'm afraid to over fill her. I did see her have a pee and have put something under her cage to catch the poops to see if there are any fresh ones.


 
Does she have mastitis? Are her nipples swollen?

I've read something about does that can have issues around day 10 with milk and how it can kill mom and the baby - but I don't remember where it was. I'm dead tired from the show and still have to unpack but I will try to look through my books tonight and see what it was..

Peg
 
I found something but I'm not sure it is what this is - so I'm PM'ing Pam Nock to ask her to look at this thread.

Peg
 
I'm not sure what the problem is, but I would not continue to breed rabbits from out of that line.

Pam
 
Try some jello water, gatorade,or some parsley drenched in water. My rabbits all love the parsley and will eat it when all else fails. Also try some plain old fashioned oatmeal and see if she will eat that. Puta crock of water in her pen if you use a bottle waterer.Anything to get her drinking fluids.
 
[*] Newborn to One Week: two - two anda half cc/ml each feeding (two feedings per day).
  • NOTE: Many newborn mammals cannot urinate/defecate on their own. The baby bunnies will require the stimulation of the mother's grooming tongue on their bellies and ano-genital region in order to release a stream of urine and those pinhead-sized poops. Fortunately, you do not have to use your tongue. Use a cotton ball (or even a very clean and disinfected fingertip) moistened with warm water, and gently tap/rub the urogenital area until you feel the baby's abdominal muscles tense and get that rewarding stream of warm pee! (Now you see why we suggest you use a towel on your lap.) Getting a urination response may take 15-20 seconds of stimulation, or even more. Many sources recommend doing this before feeding, and if it works--fine. However, sometimes the stimulus of a full stomach makes this easier. If the baby will not urinate before feeding, try again after feeding, and you will likely get a good response.
    Failure to stimulate the babies to urinate/defecate can in the death of the baby (the bladder can actually rupture if it is not stimulated to empty!), so be sure you do this procedure diligently, gently, and patiently! It may take a couple of weeks before the babies are able to urinate and defecate on their own.Watch for signs of redness/irritation around the anus and uretrhal opening, which indicate you are stimulating too vigorously. Back off on the pressure, and apply a bit of soothing calendula ointment (available at health food stores) to heal the irritation.

    [align=justify]If the feces come out liquid or "smeary", it's a sign of potentially serious trouble. Consult your rabbit-experienced veterinarian at the first sign of diarrhea, as this can be fatal in only a few hours in a baby rabbit.[/align]
[*] One to two weeks: 5-7 cc/ml each feeding (two feedings per day). The amount will depending on bunny, and may be much LESS if the baby is small.
  • NOTE: Do not allow a baby rabbit overfeed at one sitting! Once a baby learns the Turbo Suck (tm), he can suckle so quickly that it'spossible for him to ingest a volume too great for his little tummy.Although it's unlikely for the stomach to rupture, stretching it too taut can cause pain, gas, and make the baby sick. It is better tounder feed slightly than overfeed. If in doubt, let the baby rest for about a minute after feeding, then offer the nipple again. This gives time for the stretch receptors to respond and let the baby know he's really full.
[*] Two to three weeks: 7-13 cc/ml each feeding(two feedings). Domestic rabbits' eyes open at about 10 days of age.Start introducing them to timothy and oat hay, pellets and water in a shallow dish.
[*] Three to six weeks: 13-15 cc/ml each feeding (two feedings) As always, quantity may be LESS depending on the size of the rabbit.
  • NOTE: At the age of about three weeks, babies will begin to experiment with solid food. Not only is it important to continue enriching the formula with colostrum, but at this stage it is time to inoculate them with normal rabbit bacterial flora from a healthy, parasite-free adult rabbit. Start to scout for a potential cecotrope donor when you first take the babies into your care. When they're about 2.5 - 3weeks old, obtain a fresh cecotrope and mix it into a small quantity of formula. You will probably have to feed this as if it were medicine, as most babies do NOT enjoy this "special" formula. But it will help to establish their normal flora at a time when the stomach pH is likely not to interfere with proper colonization of healthy bacterial flora farther down the intestinal tract. Inoculation for 2-3 days in a row seems to be sufficient for establishment of normal flora.
Per this website:

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/orphan.html
 
I'm really wondering if mom has mastitis - I read that does will crave water when they have this.

I really think she needs to get to a vet ASAP and be checked. She may need to be put on antibiotics.

I've never dealt with this before but from what I've read - Mastitis is nothing to be fooled around with or wait to try and fix it on your own...(not saying you'd do that).

Peg
 
I bought Big Sis in to tend to her and she passed away in my arms...She just turned 1 and this was her first litter.

Just a note for tiny's mom. the first thing I did yesterdaywas check her nipples and theyappeared normal looking.

Now to try and keep the babies going. I fed them again and they all nusred from the bottle a little better than the first time. Their little tummys are more rounded. They are eating about 1 1/2 ml, some more than others. there are 2 that have the bottle figured out and are latching right on it. I'm going to keep them in the house until they are much older.I will keep you updated on we making out with them.

I've had such bad luck with my rabbits i have to ask myself what i am doing wrong? And do I want to continue with such a heart breaking hobby?
 
:hug2:

Oh my goodness... I'm so sorry to hear that Big Sis passed away. I dont know anything about breeding so I will not try and give you any advice.I just wanted to pass on my condolences. So very sad that this is your second loss. :tears2:
 
I am so so sorry to hear about Big Sis,especially after losing her sister, maybe there was something in them that couldn't cope well with motherhood. Do you have any more girls/mums from this litter? You did all you could you know, it was obviously very quick, just got to keep them babies going strong now!
 
I only had the 2 does from that line. I do have a junior buck i kept from Little Sis(doe that died in Dec) that I wanted to use.If it is something in the line should I not use him just in case?

Last night I was very upset but I'm better this morning.

Tinys mom, thanks for the info, for some reason last night only the first paragragh showed up and I was about to do a search on orphaned babies and their care.
 
So sorry to hear you lost the doe.

I had something similar happen with the first Checkered Giant litter I raised back in January (I think, maybe Feb.) Except in Clementine'sc ase it was a weather/stress induced upper respiratory infection that literally killed her over night- before I could even think of getting her on antibiotics.

I raised the kits from 12 days old with great success. I used a kitten milk replacer with a dose of heavy whipping cream mixed in. I used syringes instead of bottles so I could be sure of the exact amount seach baby was getting. I kept track how much each baby was getting a teach feeding on a notepad. I numbered the inside of their ears with permanent marker to tell them apart from each other. I did all of this' record keeping' so I could better track how the babies were doing.Some of the smaller ones never ate as much as the larger ones, but I knew it wasn't a concern as long as they were being consistent with their feedings.

I fed every three hours until the point that they weren't eating as much at each feeding- then backed it down to every fours hours, etc.This happened pretty quickly. I stayed with three feedings a day until they were around 3.5 weeks old and was able to just do two feedings a day. If I remember correctly, the babies started out at around 4cc'sper feeding and when I decided to introduce pellets, they were up to12-16 cc's per feeding!! I kept fresh hay in their box with them fromthe start, and they nibbled on it as soon as their eyes opened. I won't get into the science behind why replacer milk can't be fed once a day like mom's milk- but it's an unfortunate fact, lol!!

Good luck, it is hard work- but definitely possible to do.

I, like Pam, would question the mothering potential of future rabbits from this line since you've had similar problems with two sisters.Either that, or look into how you are managing the lactating does.
 
I'm so sorry you lost your doe. It always hurts to lose an animal.

I would use a syringe to try and feed these guys - or an eyedropper.

Now - I'm going to ask some questions and I'm going to ask that you forgive me if I sound dense or sound like I'm accusing you of something..ok? I don't have time to go back through and read your older posts and try to refresh my memory on your rabbits (and I don't keep track of everyone as good as I should).

a. Tell me a bit again about when your other doe died...didn't she have kits? Or was she pregnant? Were the symptoms the same?


b. Tell me a bit more about this doe again? Did you get them from a breeder? Do you know anything about them? (I was thinking that you didn't have their pedigrees).


c. Do you increase the doe's feed while she's nursing? (I'm assuming you do - but I figured I'd ask)


d. Was the doe (does) drinking a lot of water in the day or so before she died? I'm talking unusual for what she would normally drink?


e. How many does do you have?


f. Did the babies (of either litter) have any sort of dry flakes around their noses or pimples on them? (I read something about this last night that I need to go back and reread). This normally happens after they start getting their fur.

g. Do you do anything different with your mamas than what you do with your other does? Anything additional you give them? Anything you withhold from them?

h. Can you tell me anything about the breeders that you got the does from? Did you check them out at all? Do they have a reputation for healthy rabbits?

i. Can you also tell me a bit about your herd? How many does? How many bucks? How old are the does? (What breed too??)


For future reference, most breeders I know will breed 2 or 3 does at the same time (within a day or so) so that if they have a problem with one doe they can foster the kits out to another doe. You might want to consider doing that.

I hope your little ones are ok and can make it. It will definitely take some work on your part....but they can survive I think.

Peg
 
AThe other doe was a full sister she had a litter when she was about8mths, kindled 8, died when the kits were almost 4 weeks. Same symptoms, quiet and out of character one day, dead the next. 4 out of her litter survived, the other 4 died from entremisis (sp?)

B I do not know anything about them other than they are full sisters california crosses,My hubby's friend got them for me from a breeder up north somewhere when they were 3 mths old.

C I free feed so didn't increase the feed but did give them extra hay (alfalfa/timithy mixed, same hay I always feed)

D drinking the same as normal before symptoms started.

E I have 2 does left, started out with 4

F I didn't notice any thing when I checked on them, all appeared well.

G I do nothing different with them other than give them extra hay to build their nest with

H see B

I My herd consist of: Blacky, doe,3,medium size (8lbs) mixed breed unknown, kindled 2 litters, 1st litter8, second litter 3 still born, due next week. Mama peach, doe,13 mths, pure bred flemish not pedigreed, expecting second litter today, was due thrus past.1st litter kindled 8, didn't cover them, 4froze, killed other 4 due to stray dog i think. Bucky, buck, 1yr,california cross. Smudge, buck,3 1/2 months, son ofBucky and little sis (first doe that died)

I was wanting to foster some with Mama peach but she is going over her due date.Up towhat age will she accept them?If she kindles today the babies will be close to the same size as hers. Also would she have enough milk to nurse 2 litters if she kindles a big litter herself if I spread the nursing out??


 
The milk flow will ajust as the demand increases. I would start by seeing if she'll feed the foster babes in their own nest box not with her babies. If she'll do that, I would start letting the foster feed once a day, and hand feed them the rest of the time. Then once the mom seems to have her milk coming in nice and strong, increase the foster feedings to twice a day.

If she won't feed them in their own nest box, then add them to her own babies. Most mom's will accept new babies up to about 10-14days old. You can take the foster babies and rub them on mom to get them to smell like her, but she shouldn't care too much.

--Dawn


 
My only concern with her fostering them is that the content of the milk is different for newborn babies than it is for older ones - I don't remember what it is that changes..the fat content?

HOWEVER...with that said, having them fostered is the best thing to do for them in this situation.

I would have try to have her feed this litter once per day plus feeding her own litter...perhaps have her try to nurse these when you get home from work and maybe she'll feed her own litter in the early morning hours.

I have one doe here - a lionhead - that kept 24 babies alive for 3 days while I waited for other mamas to have their babies. We had feed problems and I had many still borns and several mamas gave birth but just didn't have their milk come in - plus they were first time mamas.Bless her heart, Matilda nursed those babies - I took her 8 babies every 8 hours. She nurse one batch....sleep a lot.....nurse another batch 8 hours later.

If I remember right - 3 days later other does kindled and were over the feed issues (I switched feed and they had been on the good stuff long enough to be ok)...and we had something like 30 or 32 babies between 3mamas. Matilda still fed 16 I think and the other girls each took on8..and Matilda only fed every 12 hours.

To me, Matilda earned a place in this herd and she'll always live herewith free roam privileges in the rabbitry. She may be a single mane and some what ugly....(the older style of lionhead) but boy - she is an EXCELLENT mama and she did what was needed.

IF a lionhead can do it - so can a flemish - and I doubt you'll have as many babies as I did..

Peg


jil101ca wrote:
I was wanting to foster some with Mama peach but she is going over her due date.Uptowhat age will she accept them?If she kindles today the babies will be close to the same size as hers. Also would she have enough milk to nurse 2 litters if she kindles a big litter herself if I spread the nursing out??
Click to expand...
 
I meant to say this before.

After reading your answers, I don't think you're doing anything wrong -at least nothing that I could see. I am wondering if there is something genetically wrong with the does themselves - especially since they were sisters.

I think some does just aren't cut out for breeding....but ya just don't know till you try it.

Peg
 
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