need emergency bunny vet in detroit area and some information

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b24karrot

b24karrot

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
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Location
Oak Park, Michigan, USA
HELP!!!! I have what may very well be a very bad situation here and I am unable to find an emergency vet in this area that has any answers. I have 5 bunnies. The first was originally purchased (my mistake), the next 4 are rescues. My latest rescue came from a veterinarian who had a bunny dropped off to them in horrible condition. He was a lop earred rabbit who had been dumped in outside in the middle of winter. They cared for him for a fw months but werent able to find a home for him. I agreed to take him home. He has had tooth and eye problems since he was found. His teeth have to be ground down and he has had to have a few extractions. He has had some awful abcesses on his cheek and jaw area. He had to have a large amount of dead fleash surgically removed about 6 months ago. He has had breathing issues but we couldnt find a cause of this, so it was assumed that since he was just a little guy when he was dumped outside, that he may have suffered lung damage and he was near starvation when found. His dewlap is not losing hair nor is it wet. It has swollen up though like a bullfrog. When I touch it, he doesnt seem to be bothered by it, but it has a very firm feel. I'm not looking for an "internet diagnosis", my problem is that it is sunday. I have called the emergency vets in my area and I cant find one that is knowledgeable about rabbits. My fear is "pasteurella" and I know that it is extremely difficult to diagnose and often gives false test results. I have 4 other bunnies in the house. So I am concerned about the risk of rehabbing this bunny in the same house with the others. I also have a dog with leukemia who is currently going through a chemotherapy protocol. I also have heard that this has at times caused deaths in humans. I am desperate for two things....one a vet in the detroit area that even if they arent an emergency doctor. i can get them in to tomorrow. Two, a human doctor that can give me some answers if in fact it is pasteurella. If anyone out there has been through this illness with their bunnies i would love to hear from you. Knowledge will be my best weapon in getting all the bunnies through this. I would so very much appreciate some help asap from any members. thank you
 
Thanks Angie.
The Vet that takes care of my dog and her chemo is OVRS, one of the best vets in Michigan, they are one of the few that have a blood bank for animals, but they do not do rabbits usually, but I called them and talk to a great person who has 5 buns herself and she recommended a place called Ark Vet. It is about a 45 minute hike for me but I will make the trip tomorrow.
Coley was found two Decembers ago under a tree in northern michigan almost dead. My vet took care of him and did their best to rehab him then I took him in. My vet said hat he had terrible teeth probably due to malnutrition and being out in the cold so long. You should see the x ray of his teeth, they are all going in different direction and none of them are even. He has drainage from his eye which the doc said is more than likely caused by the teeth problems. He has already had one tooth removed and a large abscess on his jaw cut out. The deal with the vet was if I took him any and all problems related to or caused by the teeth they would pay for, but at this point I would really rather have an absolute bunny expert take care of him and pay the extra cost. He is very closely bonded to one of my other boys buns and too lose him would break all our hearts. But I also have to think ahead about his quality of life, I mean if we are going to have to have surgery every 6 months to cut out abscesses then is that really a good life for him? I don't know I am so concerned. Then I have to worry that if it is pasteurella have I put my dog at risk with her lowered immune system because of the cancer? Has it affected my girlfriend with her being recently told she must have COPD. The doctor really does not know what she has because he can not seem to solve her breathing problem with any meds or treatment, so now I am thinking what if it has mutated to her. I don't know, hopefully tomorrow I can get some answers, I hope.
 
If the bun has a lot of dental infection and toothroot issues it could very well be anabscess caused by an infection in the mouth.
I have a rabbit with very bad *(genetic) teeth and he has needed to have many of them extracted because they were infected. I have never dealt with a jaw abscess, however with one of my own.

I am glad that you found someone to see him and after you find out the problem you can think about 'quality of life issues"

How kind of you to take in this poor little lop. he is very lucky. :hug:
 
I know you are not supposed to have favorites but he is mine, he is just so adorable. I am pretty sure he was meant to be a bigger bunny but was stunted, and he is just so runt like and so precious, my life would be less without him, I just really want him to be okay.
 
Wow....I can understand you concern here. First let's discuss Pasteurella. Most infections in rabbits do contain this bacteria. It is an opportunistic bacteria. It is found in all mammals (including humans) and many birds sub-clinically. It is always there but in an ideal world, the immune system will easily handle this bacteria and keep it under control. Any species will a compromised immune system would be at a higher risk for an active infection. Fortunately, most strains of Pasteurella are sensitive to Penicillin and can be managed by appropriate drugs. Pasteurella will many times manifest in the respiratory system but can infect any body tissue.

And you are correct in that Pasteurella can be difficult to diagnose. Pasteurella is a "faculative" anaerobic bacteria meaning it can live with or without oxygen. Certain strains do not survive to the petri dish. If we have presentations of a bacterial infection without a growth, we treat for Pasteurella. In an abscess, Pasteurella and other bacteria are found as "tag alongs"....taking advantage of a weakened immune system caused by the infection at the core of the abscess.

As far as the rabbit....I have a concern about why a male would have a dewlap. Usually this is the result of being overweight, fluid retention or a dental abscess. Based on the history you provided, I would be concerned about three things here....first, a dental abscess....second, fluid retention and last, Metabolic Bone Disease. Most surgically "repaired" abscesses will return. I do not perform surgery on abscesses, but if there was a large amount of necrosis, debridement would be indicated. I use a "cocktail" of drugs and an aggressive support protocol in dealing with dental abscesses. Metabolic Bone Disease is not something many vets consider. The name is quite misleading....it does lead to a condition similar to osteoporosis in humans....but it can affect any body system. Diet is the leading cause of MBD....usually a diet deficient in Vitamin D which helps with the absorbing of calcium. And the old tale about elinimating all calcium from a rabbit's diet also leads to issues from MBD....most of the time it is dental due to loose teeth, fractures or a diagnosis of "arthritis". Those of us that rehab wildlife are keenly aware of nutritional issues.

I have dealt with many dental abscesses. I am not a vet but I can be available to consult with your doctor regarding treatment if this is an abscess. I use some drugs that are "outside the box" and not something most vets have used.

Randy
 
Everyone has been so supportive and helpful...thanks so much. Randy, you are amazing!I am going to print out the info you sent me and take it with me to the vet tomorrow. I thank you so much because I know my best chance to have a positive outcome is to be armed with as much diverse info as is possible. If the vet wanted to contact you would it be through email or is there a phone number? I dont want to infringe on you or your time but if you were ok with them contacting you...well i would appreciate it. This will be my first visit to them so hopefully they wont be put off by my printed out material and such. When i said dew lap i didnt mean it literally. Its just the most specific way to refer to an area under his chin. He is in fact a bit underweight. He doesnt have a pear shape. He's long and thin with no real curves. If the bunny modeling world were to look for a skinny model, it would be him. Due to his tooth problems, he has never gotten the hang of grinding his teeth on hay and rough things. He will eat broccoli, cauliflower, carrots and oats. If he had his way he would eat yogurt but once i got him from the vet we put a stop to all the sweets. He was irritated for a while but now things are better. If we can just keep his tooth problems under control, i think things would fall in place. Any suggestions on teaching a bunny to chew and eat hay? Would orchard grasses or something other than timothy be more appealing?:bunnydance:
 
Orchard grass is often sweeter than Timothy. I find that if you cut down on pellets and/or veggies (careful to cut down on anything--do it gradually to keep the GI happy), the bunny will start eating hay on their own. You can also stick a piece in his face until he chomps on it and remembers it tastes good.
 
Feeding only timothy hay is another of those myths. They should receive a "buffet" of hays....especially those with dental issues. Hay has two main purposes.....it controls GI transit time and is vital in the hind gut fermentation process and second, it is the primary way to keep the teeth worn down (assuming proper occlusion). Different types of hay require different chewing mechanisms which wear the teeth better. Any hay that is safe for a horse is safe for a rabbit. And with your rabbit, I would be inclined to offer more alfalfa hay as this type of hay contains much more nutrition than grass hays. When feeding alfalfa like this, it is important that the animal (any species) receive Vitamin D (especially D3). This supplement is found in most higher end pellets or it can come from daily exposure to unfiltered sunlight. At this time of the year, northern latitudes receive too little sunlight to meet dietary needs. I use the leaves of alfalfa to teach baby cottontails to eat grass. High end alfalfa will have crushed leaves.....just about being a powder. It might be beneficial to deworm this rabbit using Panacur for most worms or Ponazuril for coccidia. Most vets still use Albon for coccidia but it is generally not too effective and it can damage the bacteria in the gut. And we give an injection of B Comp....a vitamin.

I would personally try to get him away from those veggies as they can sometimes cause issues. I prefer greens such as romaine lettuce, parsley, cilantro and dandelions....and dandelions are very nutritious. And cetainly stay away from yogurt....not only do most yogurts contain sugar, they also contain lactose and rabbits do not handle lactose well at all. The idea behind yogurt is the bacteria that alters the pH in the gut....and rabbits need an acidic gut. That type of bacteria can be found in many lactose free probiotics such as Bene Bac. Oxbow's Critical Care and APD's Critter Be Better also contains probiotic bacteria. Keep in mind that the bacterial cultures found in probiotics are not the type of bacteria that is needed in the gut....but the cultures found in the probiotic will encourage a favorable envionment for the growth of beneficial bacteria.And I would highly suggest acquiring a product called "BioSponge". When you are dealing with a sick animal, that can upset the bacteria in the gut and result in diarrhea induced by the bacteria Clostridium. BioSponge is highly effective at binding enterotoxins caused by Clostridium.

It is easier to contact me by my direct e-mail. I check it regularly during the day. [email protected] I will be "out of pocket" next weekend as we are lecturing at the state wildlife symposium.

Randy
 
So much to take in! I thought i was doing such a good job at educating myself about my rabbits and how to best care for them and i feel like i still have come up waaaaaay short! yikes! Ok, let me try to summarize this...
I currently feed them Oxbow Bunny Basics T (timothy pellets). It has Vitamin D IU/kg 900. Is that a high end pellet?
The diet for my rabbits is romaine, parsley, raddichio, one mini carrot, brussel sprouts and timothy hay, with night time pellets and some oats.

I think you are saying that i should change that to romaine, parsley, and dandelions with a buffet of hay and grasses.
For Coley who has the tooth issues I should feed him romaine, parsley, dandelions, with a buffet of hay and grasses along with some high end alfalfa leaves to encourage eating and grinding his teeth. If he doesnt take to the hays, I can give him some of the critical care to keep the fiber in his gi tract. I should also deworm him using panacur. I will get the biosponge. Is that a good start for getting things back on track?
I am amazed at how much misinformation is out there when it comes to caring for bunnies. I really thought i was cruising along giving these bunnies a great starting foundation. i will have the vet tomorrow address the issues that are going on with his teeth and eye. Thanks a million for the help to everyone. I will be shopping for some new additions to the bunnies diet and going to the vet. Wish me luck and i will keep everyone posted.
 
That pellet is about the best you can get without specially ordering your pellets. It's what I feed my guys, and I've never had problems with it. I know Randy doesn't like it very much, though. It has a good amount of vitamin D, though. Some other ones that are popular are American Pet Diner or Sweet Meadow Farms pellets, but they're even more expensive than Oxbow (unless you buy Oxbow from Petsmart--they charge about 2x as much as my local pet food store chain) and have to be ordered on-line--they don't sell it in stores.
 
This is a bit far, but I've used this emergency vet and they were very knowledgeable about rabbits. I used the one in Novi and I'm not sure about the Rochester one.

http://www.theanimalemergencycenter.com/

I've used a vet in Clarkston and one in Westland too that I like but they have pretty limited hours. They are multi-vet offices and the ones who see rabbits only work a few days a week and Monday isn't one of them. :(

Good luck!
 
Hi everyone.
Well got Coley to the vet today and here is where we are:

Since Sunday his nose has started to have a discharge which the vet says is not good. The doc said she could clearly feel his jaw line under the lump so she was pretty sure it was NOT an abscess due to bad tooth root. She aspirated the lump and said it was really hard to get anything out and when she finally did she said it was the same consistency as brie cheese, ( sorry to any of you that eat that stuff), so based on that she said she was again pretty sure it was NOT an abscess, but she sent it out for a culture and asked us if we wanted a cytology which she explained was rather expensive, but we said yes for sure we wanted it. The doc said it maybe a lymphoma, based on where it is and what the matter inside looked like.On the good side she said Pasteurella has a very distinct smell and she did not get that smell from the matter inside.
So she sent us home with an antibiotic, Baytril, to give very 9cc twice a day, and a probiotic to give every other day. We explained that he will not eat any hay so she gave us Critical care to give him for the next week and we mix his probiotic in with that.
She was very surprised that he was eating like a little piggie and drinking tons of water with the nasal discharge he had.
The mass on him is around his throat and looks just like a large dewlap that would be on a female rabbit, and since he already had breathing issues from being out in the weather for so long during winter he can not swallow while on his back, so we lay him down and inject the Critical care then set him on on his butt to chomp it down.
The doc will call us in the morning with the culture results but says it may take a few days for the cytology.
The doc said to NOT feed him alfalfa because of the calcium content, so now I am confused about that since Randay said to feed it to him.
So how does this sound to everyone, does this all sound like we are on the right track? Anyone ever deal with anything like this kind of mass? Any ideas with the info I have given what it may be.
Randy any ideas for me? Any other treatment I should be doing here?
Coley is a tough little guy, he lasted outside in Northern Michigan in winter, he survived, then he has these horrible teeth but he eats like a pig, he had that awful abscess removed, since we got him over the summer he has gained 2.7 pounds and his coat is gorgeous, he is my little miracle bunny, he will fight till the end and hold on,I just need whatever is wrong to be treatable, cause if it is he will make it, I don't care what it costs me, I will pay and he will make it. I took out a loan to put my dog through three protocols of chemo over 3 years, and she is doing great now, I did not give up on her I will not give up on him, I will do whatever I need to for him to be okay. Please sends us your bunny prayers everyone, and anyone with any ideas please please please share them with us.
 
What the vet found clearly sounds like the description of an abscess to me.. everything that you described including the thick cottage cheese pus.

You can do nothing now but wait until the vet give you results tomorrow,however, for an abscess baytril is not strong enough to do the trick.
he will need injectable bicillin ( procaine and benzathine G penicillin ) given subqutaneously and another potent oral drug preferably something like azithromycin.

if he ( the vet) doesn't think that it is an abscess I wonder what he thinks that it is.
is this a rabbit knowledgeable person/?

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11791&forum_id=10
 
Hi Angie,
This vet is not our usual vet. Our usual vet is not someone we believed to be a bunny expert, but the vet we saw today came very highly recommended from Oakland Vet Referral Services which is one of the top vets in my state. They techs there take their rabbits to ARK vet, which is where we went today, it was quite a drive, about 45 min. but we made the trip cause Oakland, where our dog gets her chemo treatments, referred us there.
Now I am even more confused................and with confusion comes worry.Now I have to wonder if this vet really does know buns or not.
 
I have a question:
In the article you posted Dr. Brown states that an abscess has the consistency of toothpaste...................which is NOT the same as cottage cheese. Toothpaste is thick and smooth, where cottage cheese is lumpy and not smooth...........more confusion.
 
The abscesses I've dealt with have been somewhere in between, so I would think both are appropriate re: the description.

Otherwise its usually a clear liquid or tissue, quite a bit different than any form of pus.

Really sounds to me like a textbook abscess. I'd say find another vet, but honestly, if it turns out you've spent that much money on tests, etc, that really were not necessary, these guys will still owe you.

If you can't get a refund, get free treatment from here on in -- as long as they do have a rabbit savvy vet, or if the treatment doesn't require any more expertise. (Or at least not much and they're willing to follow the advise on all the Vet articles you should print out for them).


sas :expressionless:
 
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