My little Cookie is being treatment for E.C

Advertise with us
Shop deals on ebay
Love your rabbit
shop deals on amazon
Rabbits Online Forum

Help Support Rabbits Online Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
K

karen354

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
Location
wrexham, , United Kingdom
Hello I'm new here and I'm after some advice.. My beautiful little bunny Cookie has suspected E.C :( I really have no idea about it and not sure what treatment he should be having. He will start a 28 day course tomorrow of Panacur and have been told to treat my other buns with a 9 day course..

My hubby took him no me but he wrote everything done so he wouldn't forget anything.

Cookie has weight loss, very slight head tilt and is faling over to one side. She weigh him and didn't think he was too much under weight.. He lives with another bunny Sally and the vet said not to put Cookie with other buns but they are firm friends and I cannot seperate the pair..

Any advice please?

Thank you

karen
 
Hi, glad you found us. One of our infirmary mods is kind of an EC expert--he has successfully treated a few bunnies with it, which not many people can say.

I would like to know why they think it is EC and not an inner ear infection. Inner ear infections are very common and cause head tilt and balance issues. One way to check is to look at the eyes while the rabbit is resting. If they are moving on a horizontal direction (toward the nose, then toward the tail), it is likely to be an inner ear infection. If they are moving up and down, it is likely to be EC-caused brain damage.

Here's some info
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/head_tilt.htm
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/otitis_interna_media.PDF

Our EC person is not happy with how the -bendazoles like panacur work in treating it. They are not very good at penetrating the blood-brain barrier, which is where most of the damage is caused by the parasite. He prefers the use of Marquis (ponazuril), which is much better. It was developed for horses to treat a similar parasite that attacks their brain.

Here are some other alternative treatments to Panacur:
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/cuniculi/pyrimethamine.htm
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/cuniculi/Starsky.htm

I don't like that your vet said to separate him and Sally. At this point, if Cookie does have EC, he's pretty far into the disease. Head tilt is not one of the first clinical signs of EC--more commonly, bunnies start having urinary tract problems, and hind leg weakness early in the disease. In addition, almost all domestic rabbits will already have been exposed to the parasite, most likely when they were still babies. Being exposed to an active infection is not likely to increase their risk of getting an active case themselves. The parasite lives dormant in the body until a stressful situation causes the immune system to stop keeping it under control, and then you get a full-blown infection. It's very important for Cookie psychologically to stay with Sally. Another of our members had a few bunnies that got EC (only one at a time), and she has them all living together (7 or so bunnies that all get along in a herd-like thing), and having the sick bunnies stay with the rest of them was very good for the sick bunnies' in terms of morale. The others did not get sick.

If our EC guy doesn't pop into this thread on his own in a few days, I will email him.

For now, I'd stay with the treatment you were given, but also look for a different vet, or present your vet with the info I gave you from the Medirabbit website. You will want to rule out an inner ear infection. If that can be ruled out, there is a blood test for EC. In addition, it would be good if you could get him on Marquis instead of Panacur if it is indeed EC.

How old is Cookie?
 
I agree with the first poster. I would get another opinion and have Cookie's ears checked.

I have had two rabbits with EC. I never separated them from their bonded partners even as they were slowing declining.
 
Hi Karen....I have been treating EC for years and have done some in-depth research on the topic. As I have noted in past posts, EC took two of my favorite rabbits....including the name sake of our rescue. This was at a time when nobody knew about EC. It is a very misunderstood and misdiagnosed issue.

EC is a protozoan parasite. It is found in nearly all domestic rabbits subclinically. It is usually passed from the mother trans-placental but can be passed by contact with the spores found in the urine of an infected rabbit. There is only one way to confirm EC and that is post-mortem. In the US, there are several labs that can titer a blood sample to see if antibodies are present. This does not confirm active EC but is used in the overall diagnosis.

For many years it was assumed that all head tilt was caused by EC primarily due to the fact that it was known the EC migrates to the brain and causes inflammation. We know this isn't true. The inital presentations of every EC case I have seen has been some degree of hind quarter paresis (and in every case I have seen it has been the left rear leg) and a degree of urinary incontenance. This is many times misdiagnosed as a urinary tract infection. An antibiotic is usually prescribed and things get better.....but it's not the drug but the immune system mounting a response. EC overwhelms the immune system. Since the infection is in the brain, the immune system mounts an all out attack but leave the flanks open to opportunistic bacteria which leads to roving infections. The weakest point for these infections in rabbits are the ears. In the abscense of trauma, a middle and/or inner ear infection has been the cause of every case of head tilt I have treated. If the rabbit is EC positive, it is not so much the EC causing the problem but the bacteria that is allowed by the stressed immune system. The most common pathogen found in ear infections is pasteurella but there can be other bacteria in there too....and the infections doesn't have to be bacterial....I have seen yeast cause head tilt. Drugs such as Sulfatrim or Baytril are usually prescribed but in today's world, those drugs are usually ineffective.

As far as treatment for EC, Panacur (or one of the "bendazoles") have been the drugs of choice over the years. But I have one problem with those drugs....the parasite is in the brain and those drugs can't penetrate the blood/brain barrier. My current drug of choice is Ponazuril....marketed by Bayer as Marquis. It is used against Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis (EPM) in horses. EPM is almost identical to EC and rabbits are nothing but miniature horses. As far as a possible ear infection, my drug of choice is either a specific version of Penicillin or Convenia....both are safe only when injected....very few rabbits can tolerate these drugs if given by mouth. Another possibility is Chloramphenicol.

Hope this helps....and have a friendly discussion with your vet about this. Very few vets have actually seen a real case of EC and thereis a lot of incorrect information in the references they use.

Randy


 
Hi, I went back to the vets and asked for Metacam and antibiotics which they gave me yesterday. I got up this morning and Cookie's slight head tilt was so much worse..
I cried and cried and then hubby came out to him and he started aswell ... He's still eating lots which is good and seems okay in himself. This morning he was just faling over to one side but at this moment he's a little better ..
 
OK, what is the antibiotic they prescribed? It's good that you got pain medicine for him, and that you've got antibiotics to help with the probable ear infection. It would be good to start on a different antiparasitic (ponazuril) if you can).
 
Feel really upset Cookie hasn't shown any improvement but he only started Baytril, Metacam and Pancuar late Saturday afternoon. I phoned the vets to ask could he have a stronger antibiotic and she said no Baytril is the strongest and if i was treating a human it would be given to someone on their way out( not sure what she was on about)
So he's on Pancuar for 28 days, Baytril and Metacam for 7 days thats about it. The vet was very negative and said Cookie may have to be put to sleep:(

I need to find a new vet do you agree?
 
I would certainly find a real rabbit vet. Baytril is all but ineffective....totally obsolete. Panacur is the old fashioned (and ineffective) way of treating E Cuniculi. And as I mentioned, the idea that EC causes head tilt is very outdated and we know it's an incorrect assumption. Time is essential to get any vestibular infection under control....it has to be treated much more aggressively.

Randy
 
I'm going to see if I can get him to another vet tomorrow.. I've had a lady contact me to say there is a vet about 40 minutes away from here and the vet there is an exotic vet, I'll be checking first thought to make sure he knows his stuff.. I was annoyed with my vet today her attitude was not very good or very positive.
 
Cookie has been kept in he's very poorly he's dehydrated.. Blood tests are being done and have been told the next 24hrs are critical. If he gets through the next 24hrs and responds to the treatment then they'll put him on agressive treatment.
I'm so upset but I know he's in the best place for him.
 
Cookie got through those 24hrs and is home but still isn't out of the woods yet. He's on a steroid, panacur and eye gel my vet has sent off lots of so we are waiting for them to come back.
He won't treat him for E.C as he say's its a very misdiagnose illness so until he knows for sure he put him on the stong steriod. The only thing is Cookie is sleeping all of the time, he will eat when I put food next to him and will drin from a bottle when i put it to his mouth.
 
Maybe I am confused...but you say your vet doesn't want to treat for EC but is giving Panacur? That is the old school (and ineffective) treatment for EC. And steroids in a rabbit is not a good idea at all. Since all of this started with a bit of head tilt, that clinically indicates an ear infection....that has to be fought by the immune system. A rabbit's immune system is already very weak even in a healthy rabbit....steroids suppress immune response. Totally the opposite of what your rabbit needs. While it may appear that a steroid is helping, it's actually causing many more problems. Swelling (in this case in the ear) is caused by an immune system response. The swelling will subside by using steroids....but as with any drug, there is a trade off. In this situation, the entire immune system is brought down and that opens the door for additional infections. Inflammation can be addressed by other drugs....the key is picking the "lesser of the evils" since every drug has side effects. I am not a vet, but in my non-professional opinion based on my many years of treating "special needs"....this is an inappropriate line of treatment that may give the appearance of being effective short term only to return with a much larger problem down the road.

Randy
 
The test has come back and Cookie has a problem with one of his kidneys that's why he's giving him the steriods. I have to speak to him again on tuesday and we'll chat about what Cookies treatment will be from then ...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top