Litter training advice please!

[rabitgrl]

Hello there!

I just brought Bob home a couple of days ago. He is about a year old, and unaltered. He was previously living in a cage outside.

I have had house rabbits before - about 10 years ago now. I know he will be better behaved once he is neutered, but that probably wont be for a couple more months.

He has an ex-pen size enclosure in the laundry room where he stays when we are sleeping, or away from home. It is a nice laundry room, adjacent to the dinning room. Just wanted to mention that in case it sounded terrible.

Anyway, I think he is really pretty good for being un-neutered, and for being new to litter boxes and house living. However, he has peed on the carpet a couple of times, and on the floor of his enclosure a couple of times. He has left quite a few piles of poo on the carpet, but obviously that is not the biggest concern.

My husband is new to the idea of house rabbits, and Bob's accidents have got him talking about moving Bob outside. So, in the interest of marital harmony, and keeping Bob indoors I am looking for any tips for helping Bob with his litter training.

When/if he pees on the carpet should I immediately return him to his enclosure?
Does cleaning the litter box daily help or hurt with training?

We are using shredded paper with a layer of hay for his litter - if that matters. He seems to like this as far as I can tell, and does spend a good amount of time in the box.

I realize he might be doing as well as can be expected, and maybe this is just a vent, or me hoping someone will say he is doing as he should etc.
I just thought I might as well ask for help, in case there is something more I can do.

Many thanks,
Sarah

 

[JBun]

Neutering is usually what does the most good for litter training. Then they aren't quite as driven to mark everywhere. But until then, sometimes giving them too much freedom too soon can lead to accidents. You may need to limit his time out of his pen until his litter habits improve. And when you do let him out, closely supervise. If he does go to pee on the carpet, tell him 'no' and either usher him quickly back to the litter box, or pick him up and place him there. Hopefully he'll get the idea after you do that a couple times. It may help too, to leave a little soiled litter in a corner of the litter box until he gets better at using it, and also having an extra litter box out for him when he's playing may help as well.

A rabbit is considered litter box trained when it consistently pees in the litter box. Poops are a completely different matter, and depends a lot on the individual rabbit. They will leave their poop everywhere to mark their territory. Some will stop poop marking their territory after they have been in a new place long enough that they no longer feel they need to do it. Neutering often helps with this as well.

 

[rabitgrl]

Thanks JBun. I think you are right about too much freedom too soon. I was letting him have the run of the house for most of the day, and just feeling very comfortable. He is such a sweet, well behaved bunny, but I need to remember there are limitations to what I can expect from him. I let him out this afternoon, with much closer supervision and there where no issues. I think he is going to need that closer monitoring until we are able to get him neutered. I also plan to get a second litter box today or tomorrow

 

[PaGal]

I second all that JBun had to say. You can place hay for your bun to eat either directly in a corner of the litter box or hang a hay rack above the litter box so the bun will sit in the litter box while eating. Buns tend to pee and poo while eating.

Ant poo outside of the litter box pick up and place in the litter box. Any pee outside the box you can soak up with the corner of a paper towel and place this in the litter box. I always clean areas where a bun has peed with a mixture of vinegar/water which breaks down the urine so even the bun will not smell it and return to the same spot.

If your bun seems to pee in one particular spot then place the litter box there. I clean cages once per day. Not sure if providing them with a clean home helps them to prefer it that way. :0

I took in two rabbits that had spent their life outside until now. It did not take them long to learn but I did notice they seemed to pee more outside of the litter box if there cage was not clean, especially if I had provided them with something to chew on and they did leaving little pieces of cardboard or paper around. For them I did not clean the litter box as often or as thoroughly for the first several days to keep from removing all of their scent from the litter box. So for the first week I would change the litter but not thoroughly clean the box.

Make sure you have a litter box that is adequate in size for your bun. From all I have heard most buns don't do well with the corner litter pans.

 

[rabitgrl]

I am back with new and distressing developments in our situation with Bob

I had originally provided him with an ex-pen in the laundry room, but he is able to jump over the pen walls. So, to ensure he has access to food, water, and litter boxes I have just let him have the run of the laundry room. This is roughly a 18' by 6' space. He poops all over his room, but most pee is in (or near :/) his litter boxes. I have also started letting him out in the garden daily. It is completely fenced with a 6' fence, and I watch him closely the whole time - so it is a safe outdoor situation.

He continued to pee on the living room carpet, even with a second litter box, and while being closely supervised. I greatly reduced his living room time to about 2-3 15 minute intervals a day. During this time I was watching him closely, and he still pooped everywhere, and peed on the carpet and curtains. I do put him in the litter box when I see him start to pee, but I think he is really being territorial, and wants to mark his favorite spots in the living room. Also, he takes a somewhat aggressive stance when I am sweeping up his poop, and spends a lot of time chin marking everything, including his own poop. He has bumped the dust pan of poops out of my hand on more than one occasion, and frequently follows behind replacing the poops I sweep up.

I hesitate to describe Bob as agressive, maybe teritorial is a better word. He has never bitten, and he behaves beautifully with my two young daughters. They are pretty loud, and the youngest is not always super gentle, but Bob has unending patience with them. He allows them to pet him anytime they want - even on the paws and tail. Of course I make sure he can get away from the girls if he wants to, and they are not allowed to pick him up ever. He truly seems to like them, and the attention. He actually comes running to be petted, and seems so sweet and gentle in every way other than his marking.

Anyway, today he pushed his way into the house. He does this frequently when we open the laundry room door. However, I had just cleaned the carpets and did not want him on them until they had dried. He would not return to the laundry room on his own so I picked him up - which he never likes - and he sprayed me.

So at this point I wonder if he should not be allowed in the main part of the house at all? Am I still giving too much freedom? Should I try to put a roof on the ex-pen and not let him have the whole laundry room?

In regards to neutering, I know it will help, but how much? The rabbits I had in the past were much younger when neutered, and not displaying the kind of behavior Bob is. He is already a year old. I plan to neuter him anyway, I just wonder how much of this I can expect to change. Currently we are in the middle of finishing some work on our house, and don't have the extra money for a non-emergency medical procedure. Also, I am still trying to find a good vet. Local neutering prices range from $75-$300, but I have yet to find anyone who seems really experienced. Just not a lot of demand for rabbit neutering around here I guess. I just wanted to lay this out for anyone wondering "why not just neuter him now". I also want to make clear that although money is an issue he would be taken to the vet if he seemed sick at all, or was having a medical emergency.

Any thoughts, or advice are deeply appreciated!

 

[lauraloo]

Hey I feel your pain, Larry was a nightmare peeing everywhere, and pooping! Bramble was the same. After they had both been neutered/spayed the peeing slowed down and eventually we decided to get rid of the cage as it was just been used as a toilet (we live in a flat and they have free reign except for bedroom, and living room when no-one is home) we had litter trays everywhere so they could get used to them, and then slowly removed trays until they just had their main one.

I use puppy pads to help with the stink and hay, they are changed daily and free up more space so my buns have more binky room. They prefer clean trays as soon as they see me going to change it they are nudging my ankles! Larry also bites my dust pan when I am sweeping up stray poops, he also likes to show me he is boss by throwing dust pan/poops/litter tray around!!!

It was hard and it took awhile, but it's been worth it. And going back to having them `seen to` it helps, lots and lots.

 

[Tauntz]

I'm still a new bunny mom compared to most of our members but have a suggestion for you. I would put Bob back in the xpen in the laundry room to limit his space. Second, I would use a sheet or other cloth covering to cover the xpen. I use this method with my buns. I attach the sheet using plain old-fashioned wooden clothes pins. My buns have not jumped out of their xpen yet. Others will probably be along for with their advice but this has worked so far for me with my two does.

 

[Blue eyes]

I agree that limiting his space is step number one. I would not let him on carpet until he's neutered and has had a month or so for his hormones to dissipate. Right now, he's just learning some bad habits that I'm sure you don't want to become the norm. Your laundry room sounds like a large area, so maybe use the x-pen w/ a sheet over (how tall is it, btw?), and then for his exercise time, let him use the rest of the laundry room. I wouldn't even be having him outside yet (but that's me.) I think limiting his area will help him more to get the idea of the litter box.

My thought is that with a consistently limited area (for now) he is more likely to get the idea of the litter box. Of course I do think neutering will help, but for now, limiting that space should help much. You also mentioned that he's peeing 'near' the box. Do you know if he may actually be in the box but that his bum is just hanging over the edge? If so, then he may need a box with higher sides. Also, how large is the box?

 

[rabitgrl]

I think I will try the sheet idea tonight.

Blue eyes - the pen is 28" high.
One litter box is a mid-size cat one, which is too small, but I already had it. The other one is a storage container, maybe 5 gallon, with an opening cut in one side. I know the cat one is just too small, and I did see him pee over the edge one time. The storage container one, there is really no way for his bum to hang outside of it, but it does get peed next to sometimes. I plan on replacing the cat box with another storage container, just haven't gotten around to it. Bob is a flemish giant - so he is a pretty large bunny to accommodate and keep caged.
I think I will try securing him in his enclosure tonight. However, I am already feeling a little guilty since he enjoys the whole laundry room so much.

Why would you not let him outside if it was you?
I just did because he was always outside at his previous home and I thought he might miss it. Also, I thought it would be a way for him to run around a little, since he wasn't being allowed in the main living area as much. He really seems to enjoy his time in the garden, so I would hate to stop it.

The people I got Bob from had him in an outdoor cage half the size of his ex-pen. They were also feeding him dogfood Anyway, I think it is my tendency to indulge him more than I should, and now I will have to toughen up and restrict him a little more.

 

[Blue eyes]

I was thinking that being outside is more space in which he can potty wherever he likes. This will be fine normally, but I was wondering if it could be counter-productive or confusing while in the process of litter training him. He may wonder why it's fine to 'go' anywhere when outside but not when inside (if he can grasp the difference). I could be wrong on this, but that was my thought process. Confine him now in a small area until he gets the idea of the litter box. Then, gradually expand his area in increments, being sure he always returns to the box. As he shows consistency in each slowly expanding area, then his area is expanded more & more. Then once he's consistent inside, then it shouldn't be a problem (hopefully) to allow him outside.

I know you want to give him lots of space, but limiting it now may be the quickest way to get to that point without him getting in bad pee habits. Carpet peeing can be a hard habit to break, so not giving him the opportunity at all would be best for now.

For a Flemish, some people get one of those black plastic cement mixing bins from home depot/lowes. They seem large enough (& cheap enough) for a litter box for a Flemish.

 

[Azerane]

It sounds like you've got yourself a little bit of a challenge. Having been an outside bun that was used to pooping and peeing wherever and whenever he felt like it, it may be tricky to break those habits. I won't say that yes, neutering will help 100%, because there are times when it doesn't, but it will help, mostly with the spraying I should think, but it should help with the peeing on the carpet too.

Everyone else has pretty much covered most things, keep him in his ex-pen if possible. If he pees or poops outside his box, wipe it up with some paper towel and dump it in his litter box, once he's got the hang of that, then you can let him out into the rest of the laundry. I would be reluctant to let him back into the rest of the house until he's been neutered, especially since he seems inclined to pee on the carpet, which sounds largely territorial to me. I know it sounds cruel and horrible, and he may rattle and shake his ex-pen to be let out, but it's in his best interest until you can get him peeing only where he's supposed to so he doesn't end up outside.

Also, I'm not sure where you're located, but you might be able to find a good rabbit vet near you from this listing: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f21/pin-index-vet-listings-10295/

 

[rabitgrl]

Thanks Blue eyes and Azerane for your thoughts.

Bob is still free range in the laundry room - just haven't had the heart to pen him up yet. He does do so well in there. I mostly just notice little piles of poop, but most if not all pee is getting in the box.
I probably should have mentioned the laundry room is carpeted, but it is a much less fluffy and enticing carpeting I guess.
He is not being allowed in the main house for now. I do see that letting him outside may be counter productive, but I am still on the fence about it. He really does seam to love his outdoor time.

I checked the vet listing, but no one was in a very reasonable driving distance to me. I live in the state of Oregon and most of the vets listed were near Portland, about 1.5 hour drive from me. My grandmother has offered to help pay for his neutering, so that should help it happen sooner. I just need to find the right vet.

I will update again when and if there are changes.

Thanks again to everyone for all the helpful tips and advice. I really appreciate it )

 

[rabitgrl]

Hello again!
Well Bob was neutered last Tuesday! He was very naughty after surgery though, and pulled out his sutures twice. Due to this he had to wear an e-collar for three days. This was a total nightmare, and litter habits were out the window during this time.

After removing the collar he seemed to be peeing in the litter box again. However, last night and this morning he has been peeing by the litter box again. I know he is not hanging his bottom over the edge becuse it is too far away from the litter box for that to be possible.

I mentioned that the laundry room is carpeted, but I removed the carpet under the litter boxes - so it is just concrete there. I am also planning to remove the carpet from the whole room very soon. Our laundry room is in need of an update anyway and the carpet was already super old, and I don't mind the concrete. Anyway, the bigger issue is what I mentioned in my first post. My husband would rather Bob live outside, and all this peeing is not helping.

In the last few days my husband has mentioned a couple of time that we need to start work on the outdoor space for Bob. When I express my unhappiness about this he has stated that he really doesn't mind Bob in the house "if he would just stop peeing on the floor". To be honest I have a hard time arguing with this.

-So, I have tried soaking up the pee with a paper towel and putting it in the litter box. It still remains to be seen if this is helping.
- I tried fencing him into a smaller area, but he pushes the fence over, jumps out, etc. I think he really needs a cage with a sturdy top and bottom to truly be contained. He is just too large and strong for the ex-pen to work.
- As mentioned he is now neutered, but I realize it takes a while for the hormones to settle and the territorial behaviors to end.
-He is not allowed into the main part of the house until the carpet peeing stops.

Is it possible he will always pee on the floor?

Should I keep trying to secure him in a smaller area? This would mean buying or making more of a cage, as the ex-pen set up has failed in every attempt.

Any other thoughts or advice are welcome. I really want to solve his peeing out of the litter box so he can be a house rabbit.

 

[Blue eyes]

Couple thoughts...
...one is that you are correct that it takes time for hormones to dissipate. I have heard that it can be a full month, possibly two.
I wouldn't make any major moving decisions until those hormones have had time to go away.
...second, I know you don't want to confine him, but I truly think that litter training starts in small spaces. If you could use a dog crate or make a temporary NIC cage, you can put the litter box in there. Once he realizes that if he pees outside the box then he HAS to sit in his own pee, I think he'll start getting the idea.

Whenever I bring a new (rescue) bunny home, I always confine them to their cage for 48 hours. I think this helps them establish, right from the start, where their litter box is. They don't like being messy, so they catch on quick. Then when I begin to let them out for roaming, I use an x-pen to greatly limit that roaming (initially). Again, small spaces. They have to earn the larger space.

All that said, I really think that he just needs that time after his surgery for those hormones to settle. Confine him to a limited area and things should go easier.

After that time has passed, I'm wondering now whether it wouldn't be a good idea to move him (his dog crate cage) to another area altogether, maybe the kitchen or someplace without carpet. Then, when you give him a little roaming room (with the x-pen surrounding his cage), it will be a newer area that does not have the scent of his prior peeing places. Perhaps he keeps smelling his old peeing spots and maybe that's another reason he keeps going there. If you do decide this tactic, I'd wait a bit until his hormones have had more time to go away, that way it increases your chances for success.

 

[rabitgrl]

Thank you Blue eyes
All very good advice. I realize now he does need the confinement, it has just been more difficult than I thought. I think I will get some nic cubes tomorrow or the next day, and try to build him a cage.

Unfortunately when I checked his stitches today he had gotten them open again. We will be heading back to the vet in the morning, and probably have to go through the e-collar ordeal again :headsmack
I have had three other rabbits neutered in the past, and they never did this. He is such a pickle on so many levels. It's a good thing he is so handsome and charming.

 

[Azerane]

Cant they not give him internal sutures or use the medical glue instead of external ones every time? I do hope he stops pulling at them though and can heal up quickly. I am glad to know though that he made it through the surgery well. If he was getting better with his litter habits before the neuter, it's possible that being away for a bit and coming back again just made him want to re-assert his territory as well. Also as you said yourself, it will take time for the hormones to die down and then you should hopefully have an easier time of it.

Are there any toys that you know he loves that might keep his mind off of fussing with his stitches?

 

[PaGal]

Confining does really seem to help with the litter training.

Does the area he is in get messy with hay, chewed cardboard or some such materials? I ask because the two females I have would pee outside of the litter box if I gave them something to chew and they created a mess with it in their cage. If their cage is relatively clean or clean they will not pee anywhere but the litter box. A little too much paper or cardboard in the cage and they use the whole cage as a litter box.

You can try to be sure and clean up the urine as soon as possible and clean with a vinegar/water solution. This will break down the smell of the urine so even your bun won't smell it. If he can smell where he has previously urinated then he is more likely to pee there again. At the same time you can clean the litter box less frequently so the litter box has a nice strong odor for him. With my girls I clean the litter box every other day because theirs is huge but when I was litter training them I would swap out litter every other day but only really clean the litter box every four days. Then I would just hose it out and let it dry. Luckily they trained in a few weeks.

 

[rabitgrl]

Yesterday I cleaned his litter box area really well with vinegar, and he has not peed out of the box since. I feel like he is making progress, he just slips up from time to time.

Azerane - I think they are the internal kind, and I know the vet applied the glue more than once before we left. I honestly don't know how he is getting it open. He doesn't even lick the area when I'm around. It just looks like there is dried blood, and a small opening at each incision sight, but I am certainly no expert.I will report back after our trip to the vet.

PaGal - the area is not very messy. I sweep up stray poops and any hay a couple times a day. I also clean up pee right away. I think he is just being territorial as far as I can tell, but we shall see.

 

[rabitgrl]

Just here to say the vet trip was not needed. He did have some dark looking scars, but everything is closed up and healing well. I felt a bit silly, but better safe than sorry. I am so relieved to not need the e-collar again, and to know he is recovering well.

Thanks for all the helpful thoughts and advice, I will report back with any developments

 

[Azerane]

That's very good to know that he hadn't pulled them open again! What a relief. I hope he continues to heal well.