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Pam, the difference in your situation is, you arent killing a cow just for the eyes and leaving the rest to rot.

Its a very fine line we tread upon, on what is humane and what isnot. Many people have problems with using chimps and primatesfor experiments, but rats/rabbits/mice, they dont care. Allanimals deserve respect, be they primate or otherwise.

As much as I dislike animals used for research, I know it is anecessity, but it isnt the same thing as decapitating a rabbit or a cator making 'finger gloves' out of mice just for a piece of shock valueart.
 
As much as I dislike animals used forresearch, I know it is a necessity, but it isnt the same thing asdecapitating a rabbit or a cat or making 'finger gloves' out of micejust for a piece of shock value art.
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Exactly. Mice or rats used in research (a necessary evil) at least diedwith a purpose: to find cures or treatments for diseases. These micedied so their mutilated corpses should be photographed.
 
bunsforlife wrote:
Asmuch as I dislike animals used for research, Iknow it is a necessity, but it isnt the same thing as decapitating arabbit or a cat or making 'finger gloves' out of mice just for a pieceof shock value art.
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I agree 100%, butDEAD IS DEAD. While I know that someday Imust die, because that is the cycle of life....I also know that MYpreference would be to die of natural causes !!NOT for research so thatothers may live OR FOR ART!!. I would love to say that I'd be a herolike that but I wouldnt and I'm not going to be pretentious. The beautyof being human is that we have a voice to say no. The downfall to allthis is that we sometimes forgetWE ARE THE ANIMAL'SVOICE.

Please keep in mind that I DONT AGREE with this women's art....I thinkshe should be stopped ASAP...but consider for a moment the method ofdeath for the two opposite purposes.

On the one hand, reserch related death will often bepainful,and frought with health problems and side effectsfrom testing. This is not humane.These animals make HUGEsacrifices for "others". On the other hand,IF the reports aretrue andNathalia uthanizesbefore hand, in my mindit would be the better way to go.JMHO

Again...I DO NOT SUPPORT HER ART!! I just wonder where the line issometimes. It's hard for me to separate in my mind how death in oneform can be ok but in another it's not.

Lanna
 
I'd rather die than survive on treatment known to have been tested on innocent animals.
 
But that would mean to never accept anytype of medical treatment, over the counter medicines, vaccines,etc. What of a family member dying of a heartattack? Extensive studies have been done using rabbits.

Pam
 
I hope nobody minds but I am going to send a linkto this post to my Ethics teacher, I think she would find it a veryinteresting post to look at, maybe it will give her insight for futureclasses, and maybe it will help make even more people aware of thisissue.

Fergi's mom

p.s. I am not touching this with a ten-foot pole :pI have ahard enough time in my ethics class figuring out why I believe what Ido and whether or not it follows a chain of thought that is logical.More often then not I have a position but can't back it up:shock:Kind of embarrassing!
 
Fergi wrote:
Ihope nobody minds but I am going to send a link to this post to myEthics teacher, I think she would find it a very interesting post tolook at, maybe it will give her insight for future classes, and maybeit will help make even more people aware of this issue.

Fergi's mom

p.s. I am not touching this with a ten-foot pole :pI have ahard enough time in my ethics class figuring out why I believe what Ido and whether or not it follows a chain of thought that is logical.More often then not I have a position but can't back it up:shock:Kind of embarrassing!
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Yes! That would be wonderful!

Pam
 
pamnock wrote:
Should any life be more sacred than another? Wecan eat cows and pigs (which are very intelligent by the way), but notroast the rather stupid pony? (Someone wanted to have a ponyroast where I used to live).

What about the little flea, fish, the fly or the rat? Do theynot struggle to survive? Our ownbodies serveasa cemetery for millions of organisms slain by our immunesystems.

Were do we draw the line and what is happening to oursociety? A woman OD'd at someone's house in ourtown. They didn't know what to do with her, so they took thedeceased and propped her up on a hay bale in a field!
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of course we could take on the mr Smith from the Matrix anddecide that humans are a virus on the earth:p okwas feeling a little devilish LOL
 
Gabby -- I'm sure the animals certainly feel thatway! How many species have we been single handedlyresponsible for wiping off the face of this earth? :X

Pam
 
Having bought Vogue for the second and last timethis month, I was disgusted to see pictures of rabbit fur trussed upinto a coat for some size 6, 6ft2" model to strut around in!A picture of a 2 headed fox stole and fur gilet made me sick!I don't know how these people can think that it's nice to have a deadanimal draped over their shoulders.

As for the 'artist' woman, well if we murdered our rabbits and stuckthem on a canvas, we'd be done by the RSPCA for animalcruelty! As my partner has just said, it's just cheapcontroversy to sell **** art!

She should be prosecuted for this slaughter! I can't evenlook at the website as I fear I may be distressed by it. Icry at RSPCA adverts on tv, so goodness knows what I'd be like.

I am vegetarian, but I agree that people can eat meat if they like, Ijust don't see how there is a need to wear it as we have so many otherfabrics and faux furs on the market to choose from, I also don't seethe need to kill innocent animals just to make money! I dosee the need for medical research, not cosmetic, as I'd be dead if itwasn't for recombinant DNA technology.
 
pamnock wrote:
Gabby -- I'm sure the animals certainly feel thatway! How many species have we been single handedlyresponsible for wiping off the face of this earth? :X

Pam
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THat is a problem, humans have difficulty doing things in moderation,and for the good of something. If we had shown some restraint orrespect towards animals, we might still have certain specieswith us today.

We take over the land they once so freely ranged on, then wonder whythere are bears or cyotes in the back yard. We can't kill them all thenwhere would we be? Wondering why we are missing yet another speciesfrom the earth, but i do think we need to find a better wayto live with them.

We take over one part of the planet and then once we have filledthat up we spread out and take over more. Iwouldn't be suprized if we did kill the earth.

As for me I'm doing my part not to over populate the earth ... of humans LOL no human kids for ME! LOL

I do feel there is a time and purpose for everything, I think we just have to know where to draw the line.
 
OOhh, this topic treads on so many thin lines... I love it!...LOL.
There has been many good points onall angles here.

I agree, scientific testing is a must and I do back it up -not just for our own medical benefit, but for every other living thingas well... Think about it, it even affects the Vegans -whether they like it or not in more ways than one. When thescientists made the fertilizers and pesticides for our farmers toensure a good crop, it had to be tested to ensure the fertilizerswouldn't harm or kill the wild animals that may andwillconsume the crop... as well as testing the pesticides toensure it killed what it was specified to and not everything else inthe vicinity.... vast majority ofall these tests were donewith live "lab" animals.

And why not purchase that rabbit fur coat? Chancesare the rabbit was killed formeat (be it human or animalconsumption) and the fur was used as a secondary "commodity".The rabbit is already dead, has already been processed, it doesn't needit's fur anymore... and as many have already said - best to make useofALL of the animal and not let any go towaste.

Another touchy subject - but it was previously mentioned...

Ifeveryone had a choice in thematter,I'm sure we (people) would all choose to go in our sleep, but it's theluck of the draw.Personally, I know that when it ismy time, regardless of how - I don't want my death to be in vain - forany reason... If I could save liveswith my death - so beit! (**Hoping I don't cross thin lines**) My family knowsthat when it is time, I am a designated donor - anything anyone needsto extend their lives can take it - then I'm going to be donated to theMedical schoolsas a teaching/learning toolforfuture doctors.

LikeFergi's Momsaid before - wether ornot I can backup my statementswith a sensible andreasonable answer is another story, these are my opinionsandwhat I belive to be the best way I know to give back toeveryone.

 
Personally I'd hate to go in my sleep. And youknow what? I'd love to die of the experiments they do on those animals.ON CAMERA. Then see how many people support it. The sad part is: we arenow able to develop ways to research things without killing. We'vealready got some (like artificiallygrownskin).Thing is, people don't want to change, it costs too much to develop(even though it's cheaper afterwards)and they aren't gettinganything out of it. Scientists get recognition for helping humans. Notso with animals.
 
Well, as far as testing goes, there are alot of unecessary and cruel animal tests. Cosmetic testing isabsolutely unacceptable, there are humane alternatives. As faras pesticides and fertilizers go, most of them do kill animals and areshown to cause damage to humans! :shock: Thus the reason why organicfarming is becoming a much more viable alternative.

And I can see what you mean about the rabbit fur coat, but all theother fur animals are raised and cruelly killed just for theirfur.
 
This is what I meant m.e. It's not thefact that it was a rabbit coat, it was the fact that it was fur atall! Personally, I don't wear leather or anything like that,just because I don't like the thought of it, or the smell for thatmatter. Wet suede jacket?! Bleugh! Stinksto the high heavens!

I still don't like the fact that animals are tested on, but I do acceptthat it has to happen. If not, I'd be injecting myself withpig insulin. At 12 years old, being 5ft4" and 2 and a halfstones, Iwould have died. My father wanted me tolive, I wanted to live... there's no wayhe or I would havesaid "Oh no, the technology used to save my life has been tested onanimals so I don't want it." I can't see many people,themselves, or their children, refuse medical treatment because animalswere harmed in the making. Even a simple paracetemol for aheadache would have been tested on them. :(
 
Delphinum wrote:
This is what I meant m.e. It's not the fact thatit was a rabbit coat, it was the fact that it was fur at all!Personally, I don't wear leather or anything like that, just because Idon't like the thought of it, or the smell for that matter.Wet suede jacket?! Bleugh! Stinks to the highheavens!

I still don't like the fact that animals are tested on, but I do acceptthat it has to happen. If not, I'd be injecting myself withpig insulin. At 12 years old, being 5ft4" and 2 and a halfstones, Iwould have died. My father wanted me tolive, I wanted to live... there's no wayhe or I would havesaid "Oh no, the technology used to save my life has been tested onanimals so I don't want it." I can't see many people,themselves, or their children, refuse medical treatment because animalswere harmed in the making. Even a simple paracetemol for aheadache would have been tested on them. :(
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I think it is easy for somene who has never had touse a life saving medicine to say they would never use one that wastested on animals. I think it is quite a different story for those whohave been there and their life depends on it.
 
I do agree that if an animal is killed for meat,why waste what's left? People don't just skin animals and leave themeat, they use it. I really don't have a problem with that conceptbecause life and death is all part of life and it's just how it works.However, I do have my opinions on testing on animals. If you wouldn'ttest it on a human, why would you on an innocent animal? There areother ways to test things and I do not think testing on animals is byany means humane. It may be good for us as humans but not necessarilyfor the animals. Testing on animals is a form of abuse and I don'tthink it should be tolerated.
 
People don't just skin animals and leave the meat, they use it.
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No, not always. Mink and fox are two examples of animals whose bodies are incinerated after being skinned.
 
Wow, you all havetossed in nearly every subject on all sides of all the lines! Myopinions run really closely with Pam and SunnieBunnies. To back upbriefly, the art thing certainly didn't do anything for meartistically, but it also didn't repulse me as much as it did some ofyou. I could let it make me very angry, but honestly watchingsome of the shows on TV that show abused and suffering animals thatlinger on and on in pain, that upsets me far more. Pam's inquiry as tothe feelings of others on animal trophies and such...I'm from a longline of farmers, hunters, and outdoors-men. Hunting was never donesimply as a sport. It stemmed from necessity in the early years andbecame more of a family/social event in the later years. Trophy sizeanimals were kept and mounted and the stories are still told andenjoyed. I think in general, most people who lived off of the land hadtremendous respect and appreciation for wildlife. Of course, there arealways exceptions. As far as animal testing goes. I believe in it. Iwould like to see it done as humanely as possible. But insituations where there are nogood options for humane testing,I would still pick the testing in hopes that it might result insomething significant likehaving my husband cured of hisdiabetes,my daughters cured of their Juvenile RheumatoidArthritis or myself of Lupus.I do believe (most)humans exist higher in the pecking order, though I do prefer many of myanimal friends to some humans I know. I think as the highest earthlylife form, it is our responsibility to stand up for and protect thosewho are not able to do so for themselves. The subject gets touchy. Allthings cannot be saved. One last thought. It has been scientificallyproven that thousands of life forms have become extinct with absolutelynothing whatsoever to do with man. It is a giant "circle of life" typeof thing, if you will. All of the things you hear all the time that wehave "made extinct" isn't always factual. Many of those things wouldhave happened whether man had been on earth or not. It just doesn't fitcertain political agendas to bring that to light.

RaspberrySwirl
 
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