How does this work....

[CoolWaterRabbitry]

Ok, so my mother is wanting to breed Sable Marten NDs. She so far has two does (a Jr and Sr) and has a black Sr doe with 1 leg that was more like a "Buy one and you can have this one since I need the space" kind of buy.

So anyhow, she and I talked with another ND breeder that had some Sable Martens at the last show, and she talked about if you can't find a SM buck, you can use a REW? (if I heard her right)

Now, we're going to be looking for a buck for the two Sr does (and to use for the Jr, but that's a while off). The black she's not 100% concerned with producing SMs from (my mother will most likely have blacks or some other color along with the SM)

So what color buck, if there is no sable marten, would best produce a sable marten(if any)?

Here's the Sr sable marten doe's pedigree:

Herself: Sable Marten

Sire: Sable Marten - Grand Sire: Black(GG Sire: Silver Marten-Black, GG Dam: Chinchilla), Grand Dam: Seal Marten(GG Sire: Black, Silver Marten-Black)


Dam: Sable Marten - Grand Sire: Sable Marten (GG Sire: Sable Marten, GG Dam: Silver Marten-Black) Grand Dam: Smoke Pearl Marten (GG Sire: REW, GG Dam: Siamese Sable)




Here's the Jr sable marten doe's pedigree:

Herself: Sable Marten

Sire: Smoke Pearl Marten - Grand Sire: Smoke Pearl Marten(GG Sire Smoke Pearl Marten), Grand Dam: Smoke Pearl Marten(GG Sire: Sable Marten, GG Dam: Siamese Smoke Pearl)

Dam: REW - Grand Sire: REW(GG Sire: REW, GG Dam: Sable Marten) Grand Dam: Himalayan-Black(GG Sire: Himi-Black, GG Dam: Himi-Black)



and for kicks the Black Sr Doe's Pedigree:

Herself: Black

Sire: Black - Grand Sire: Chestnut(GG Sire: Black Otter, GG Dam: Opal), Grand Dam: Black(GG Sire: Black, GG Dam: Black)

Dam: Tort. - Grand Sire: Black(GG Sire: Tort., GG Dam: Black), Grand Dam: Black(GG Sire: Black, GG Dam: Black)



Just wondering, what color of buck should we look for? Along with color, what should we look for in his pedigree to produce Sable Marten?



Thanks!

 

[Shaded Night Rabbitry]

A rew buck from an otter program bred to the sable martens.
A rew buck from a shaded program, bred to the sable martens.
A sable buck bred to the sable martens.
A smoke pearl buck bred to the sable martens.
A sable point buck bred to the sable martens.
A tort carrying rew bred to the sable martens.
A black otter carrying rew bred to the sable martens.
A blue otter carrying rew bred to the sable martens.
A black carrying rew bred the the sable martens.
A black carrying rew bred to the sable martens.

That's the order I would try to find a buck in. Until you find a sable marten buck, you're going to have some fun trying to get the tan pattern instead of self...

I also don't know if you can use black silver marten with sable marten. i'd assume so, as long as the agouti gene is kept out... You should be free of sable agoutis... But be wary, and get someone else to confirm that first. =D

 

[Shaded Night Rabbitry]

Actually the black/blue otter carrying rew and the black/blue carrying rew should be much higher on the list... They're more likely to make a tan patterned carrier of sable marten. =D

 

[lelanatty]

You could use a REW, but I would very strongly advise against it. REW's can cause so many color problems that it's just not worth it unless they have extremely outstanding type AND come from a shaded and/or SM background. That is not a very likely combination.
If you can't find a sable marten buck, the next best thing would be a black silver marten, especially if they have sable or seal marten in the background or any shaded colors. Also, you may find a rabbit marked as a black silver marten, but is actually a seal marten since it is hard to tell the difference.

The next best thing after that would be a siamese sable or siamese smoke pearl if your mother wants smoke martens as well. They should produce siamese sables and sable martens.

And about the sable agoutis, the same rules apply as with the otters. Otters apparently can't carry agouti, so neither can silver martens, since they are the same thing except for the cchd gene. No worries there.

 

[Jaded]

Wow this looks confussing!

 

[Shaded Night Rabbitry]

lelanatty wrote:

You could use a REW, but I would very strongly advise against it. REW's can cause so many color problems that it's just not worth it unless they have extremely outstanding type AND come from a shaded and/or SM background. That is not a very likely combination.
If you can't find a sable marten buck, the next best thing would be a black silver marten, especially if they have sable or seal marten in the background or any shaded colors. Also, you may find a rabbit marked as a black silver marten, but is actually a seal marten since it is hard to tell the difference.

The next best thing after that would be a siamese sable or siamese smoke pearl if your mother wants smoke martens as well. They should produce siamese sables and sable martens.

And about the sable agoutis, the same rules apply as with the otters. Otters apparently can't carry agouti, so neither can silver martens, since they are the same thing except for the cchd gene. No worries there.

; idk how it is in Texas, but almost all the rews here are from self and shaded lines... Well... I know Lonestar and the other big BEW breeders are in texas, so I assume a lot of the rew's there have the vienna gene, and therefore have lots of problems...

But I've had more problems with my shadeds having color problems, then my rews.


Another thing to look at; do you want your shadeds REW based, or himi based? Because a cchl cchl rabbit is not going to be showable in most cases. And himi's, in most shaded programs, come out terrible. (There's always the exception, however.)

PLUS. Himi martens are not showable at all. REW can cover marten just fine, and still be showable. And will be AWESOME for any form of shadeds, be they marten or self based. REWs keep shadeds awesome and pretty. Himi can help the points, but if you start with the correct stock you seriously shouldn't have a problem.

I still saw rews would be the best option, but like usual, we'll agree to disagree. =D

 

[RabbitLover94]

I agree that REWs would be very good in a Shaded program. I have never heard a true case of a REW causing color problems. My Siamese Sable buck carries the REW gene and his color is fantastic! My Blue Otter doe may be carrying shaded or REW, but her color is perfect as well. Anyway, good luck!!

 

[lelanatty]

Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote:

; idk how it is in Texas, but almost all the rews here are from self and shaded lines... Well... I know Lonestar and the other big BEW breeders are in texas, so I assume a lot of the rew's there have the vienna gene, and therefore have lots of problems...

But I've had more problems with my shadeds having color problems, then my rews.


Another thing to look at; do you want your shadeds REW based, or himi based? Because a cchl cchl rabbit is not going to be showable in most cases. And himi's, in most shaded programs, come out terrible. (There's always the exception, however.)

PLUS. Himi martens are not showable at all. REW can cover marten just fine, and still be showable. And will be AWESOME for any form of shadeds, be they marten or self based. REWs keep shadeds awesome and pretty. Himi can help the points, but if you start with the correct stock you seriously shouldn't have a problem.

I still saw rews would be the best option, but like usual, we'll agree to disagree. =D

If the REWs in the north are from shaded lines mostly, that's a good thing and if she does end up having to use a REW, that will be a plus. In Texas, I think most of the REW's are out of otters and selfs. The BEW's here seem to be in their own little world. I've actually never seen a REW-based BEW in all of the 5 years that I have been looking at Lone Star's web site. It looks like all of her VM's are otters, chestnutsand selfs.

She definitely doesn't need himi-based because of the obvious fact of himi martens, which rarely ever show up anymore because people are actually careful about what they breed together.

I have this doe who is a silver marten, and her color is ridiculously washed out and much lighter than it should be. It actually made me question whether she was a shaded or a solid. Her father is a REW. I bred her to a black silver marten and her baby's color is much better than hers. Her mother's color is beautifully black. I also have this chocolate buck who has REW is his background, and he has got stray white hairs in his saddle. I would show him if he didn't.

Anyway yes, we can agree to disagree with each other, butshe needs to decide for herself what she wants to do based on what is available where she is.



Best of luck CoolWaterRabbitry to you mother and to you. I hope you find what you need.

 

[Shaded Night Rabbitry]

lelanatty wrote:

If the REWs in the north are from shaded lines mostly, that's a good thing and if she does end up having to use a REW, that will be a plus. In Texas, I think most of the REW's are out of otters and selfs. The BEW's here seem to be in their own little world. I've actually never seen a REW-based BEW in all of the 5 years that I have been looking at Lone Star's web site. It looks like all of her VM's are otters, chestnutsand selfs.

She definitely doesn't need himi-based because of the obvious fact of himi martens, which rarely ever show up anymore because people are actually careful about what they breed together.

I have this doe who is a silver marten, and her color is ridiculously washed out and much lighter than it should be. It actually made me question whether she was a shaded or a solid. Her father is a REW. I bred her to a black silver marten and her baby's color is much better than hers. Her mother's color is beautifully black. I also have this chocolate buck who has REW is his background, and he has got stray white hairs in his saddle. I would show him if he didn't.

Anyway yes, we can agree to disagree with each other, butshe needs to decide for herself what she wants to do based on what is available where she is.



Best of luck CoolWaterRabbitry to you mother and to you. I hope you find what you need.

Even then, a rew from an otter and self would still be a bonus. A rew from a shaded program would cause seal martens. And; while we're on the topic... Your washed out BSM could very well just be a seal marten. I've seen a lot of them. (And to be honest, I know that a lot of them came from my favorite breeder, who decided to breed sable points and BSMs together.)
Actually, at my last 4H show a seal marten took BOB even with the judge mentioning it was a seal marten. pissed me off. >.>;


Anywho. You've really never seen a rew from Lone Star? I see them all the time. ; LOL. Oh well. XD




yes! Good luck finding what strikes your fancy. =D

 

[leo9lionheads]

Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote:

lelanatty wrote:

If the REWs in the north are from shaded lines mostly, that's a good thing and if she does end up having to use a REW, that will be a plus. In Texas, I think most of the REW's are out of otters and selfs. The BEW's here seem to be in their own little world. I've actually never seen a REW-based BEW in all of the 5 years that I have been looking at Lone Star's web site. It looks like all of her VM's are otters, chestnutsand selfs.

She definitely doesn't need himi-based because of the obvious fact of himi martens, which rarely ever show up anymore because people are actually careful about what they breed together.

I have this doe who is a silver marten, and her color is ridiculously washed out and much lighter than it should be. It actually made me question whether she was a shaded or a solid. Her father is a REW. I bred her to a black silver marten and her baby's color is much better than hers. Her mother's color is beautifully black. I also have this chocolate buck who has REW is his background, and he has got stray white hairs in his saddle. I would show him if he didn't.

Anyway yes, we can agree to disagree with each other, butshe needs to decide for herself what she wants to do based on what is available where she is.



Best of luck CoolWaterRabbitry to you mother and to you. I hope you find what you need.

Even then, a rew from an otter and self would still be a bonus. A rew from a shaded program would cause seal martens. And; while we're on the topic... Your washed out BSM could very well just be a seal marten. I've seen a lot of them. (And to be honest, I know that a lot of them came from my favorite breeder, who decided to breed sable points and BSMs together.)
Actually, at my last 4H show a seal marten took BOB even with the judge mentioning it was a seal marten. p*ssed me off. >.>;


Anywho. You've really never seen a rew from Lone Star? I see them all the time. ; LOL. Oh well. XD




yes! Good luck finding what strikes your fancy. =D

Sorry to butt in but REWs can't produce seals, which is why they are bred to shaded variety colors to prevent seals.

CoolWater I live in Michigan and if your looking for a Sable marten buck talk to Molly or Doug Covert they are judges and are at most local shows. This spring I got a sable marten doe from them and if they don't have a sable marten a REW from them would work very well as there REWs are from shaded lines.

 

[CoolWaterRabbitry]

Thanks all this gives us a good idea what to look for. I'm not sure when we will be doing this though, I just found out that my mom is in the hospital after a bad fall and this puts everything on hold. I'm on my way out the door and praying that she's ok, but I just thought I stop in and say thank you. will update later

 

[Shaded Night Rabbitry]

leo9lionheads wrote:

Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote:

lelanatty wrote:

Sorry to butt in but REWs can't produce seals, which is why they are bred to shaded variety colors to prevent seals.

CoolWater I live in Michigan and if your looking for a Sable marten buck talk to Molly or Doug Covert they are judges and are at most local shows. This spring I got a sable marten doe from them and if they don't have a sable marten a REW from them would work very well as there REWs are from shaded lines.

Oh my gosh, thank you so much for catching that.

i've been all over the place lately. too much going on to really check over what I type. xD