HOT TOPICS: Cross-breeding

shop deals on amazon
Shop deals on ebay
Advertise with us
Love your rabbit
Rabbits Online Forum

Help Support Rabbits Online Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
TinysMom

TinysMom

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Messages
15,929
Reaction score
42
Location
, Texas, USA
I promised a few breedersseveral days agothat I was going to open this topic up for discussion where we could discuss this without having it directed at any one person or situation. We had a topic on this and it had some very good information in it for people to consider - but now I would like to have those insights here all in one place.

I'm going to have several questions in here - feel free to answer any that you want to - all - none - part - etc.



  1. Have you ever used "cross-breeding" - meaning using two different breeds of rabbits (or a non-purebred) in your breeding program? If so...why?
  2. Would you ever use a non-pedigreed rabbit that is cross bred in your breeding program? Why would you do this? Why wouldn't you do this? Would your reasons be based on cost/expense (I can get this rabbit for cheap and not buy another one) or based upon the rabbit itself (I can see X in this rabbit and it will add to my herd).
  3. Would you buya rabbit from someone if in the pedigree of that rabbit - there is a cross-bred rabbit? What about rabbits in general - if you knew a breeder used non-pedigreed rabbits or cross-bred rabbits - would you buy from them?
  4. Are there any specific advantages/disadvantages that you see in cross-breeding?
  5. Anything else you want to share?
Once again - as a "hot topic" - I ask that we remember that NONE of our comments are to be directed to any one person, situation or rabbit. I'm asking that we remember that the forum policy is that we agree to disagree - that is - we hear each other out - and then agree to move on and not take things personally.

Also remember the derogatory terms directed towards a person are not allowed. For instance, "I find this isn't a smart/great idea..." comes across a whole lot better than "How stupid can you be to do such a thing..."

Thanks in advance - to those who were patiently waiting for me to start this up - thanks so much. I wanted to do it at a time when I would be home to moderate (aka - weekend).


 
Ok - I will start some discussion going on this.

1. I've not "deliberately" used cross-breeding before - but I have had a few situations where a buck got loose while a girl was out or whatever. Because of that situation - I had lionlops and fell in love with them. In fact - I got more requests for those lionlops than for lionheads for a bit!

I have a situation right now where I am toying with this decision - well - two really. First of all - Mercury got loose and gave me some really pretty sandy flemish giant bucks...but they're topping out at something like 6 pounds? (Mama wasn't a flemish).

I never thought I wanted to breed sandies till I saw them -- but I've got to say that they are growing on me. I toyed with the idea of getting two sandy girls - taking them to the boys - and then three generations from now - having full-breds. It helps that the bucks have their daddy's type.

But I keep thinking about "do I want to use this cage space and be behind the 8 ball during the whole process when for about $50 - $100 more I could get a pedigreed sandy buck to add to the two girls I would want to get." I think...hmm..."feed and cage space - times 2 years - to get to a purebred line.

So basically - I'm not keeping them. If I go with sandies - which I would love to do - I'm gonna cough up the money and get a trio.

But I also am thinking about breeding some lionlops - which are a crossbreed. I know which lionhead I'd like to use - but I need to find one or two does that I'd be willing to take to him. I may do that this fall and just have those three dedicated to having four lionlop litters per year as pets (since I know they'll never pass ARBA).

2. I guess I sorta answered this above. I would use it if it was for a specific reason. For instance - if I saw a non-pedigreed or potentially cross-bred buck that was a KILLER for the type or head or whatever and I NEEDED that in my herd - then yes - I would consider it.

However, that yes would probably equal less than 5% of the time that I'd ever do it - if that much.

I'm just one who figures "why wait 2+ years to be at the purebred stage when I can be there sooner.."

3. If the person was upfront about there being a cross-breed in the pedigree (ie. using the F1, F2, etc. method) and they could explain to me why they had done the cross-breeding (assuming they had done it) - I would consider it. If they said, "Well...I had the rabbit so I used it.." and that was all they could say - sorry - I'm outta there.

But I know of a lionhead breeder who started using some hollands a few years ago in her program - for just a couple of litters - she's now at the fully-pedigreed stage and from what I've heard - her lionheads have improved dramatically and she does much better on the tables. But she did it for a specific purpose and she was very open with people about it. In that case - sure - I'd buy from her IF I liked the rabbit in front of me.

4. I don't really see any specific advantages to cross-breeding. Yeah - it brings in other bloodlines...but so does buying a quality animal from a breeder.

In my personal opinion - the only reason I would recommend it is because someone would have no other option or they aren't willing or able to buy quality stock.

(Please notice - I am not saying EXPENSIVE stock - my holland lop thattook two BOBs and has had three judges all say she has potential - was $40 and the cheapestof all the hollands I bought).

I feel like using a cross-breed rabbit puts me behind in my breeding program. I now have to feed that animal (and its offspring) until I reach a fully-purebred status. By the time I add in those food costs and my time and energy...I might as well have started out with something other than what many would consider a "mutt" rabbit.

In addition - amongst the breeders I know - most breeders who do cross-breeding are labeled as being "newbies" and other terms. TO THEM...its like saying, "I don't care enough about my breeding to use the best I can..".

I've seen newer breeders privately "blacklisted" (and you can't tell me it happens) because of stuff like this.

Does this mean I will never ever cross-breed again?

Well....if I have a chance at the flemish giant with pink and purple spots and polka dots....pegasus wings...and the bill of a duck....

....and if it is broken...

...it just might tempt me.




 
1.
Nope. I have definitely considered doing it to bring new colors into my breed, namely Tan, although there are already some, I wanted to do it as a project. However, it never materialized because I know that I do not have the means nor the experience to do this. Maybe one day I will. So in that case the reason would be to improve the breed by binging in new color options with different blood.

2.
Most likely I would not use a non-pedigreed rabbit unless it was worth it, meaning that the rabbit was absolutely amazing in type and would fit in with my herd. BUT, it is highly unlikely that a rabbit of that kind of quality would come out of a program that doesn't keep track of pedigrees, unless they started with good stock and were just completely inbred-- and inbred isn't good either, in my opinion (topic of inbreeding may be good for another hot topic or just another topic post).

3.
It would depend solely upon the quality of the rabbit(s). If a breeder is crossbreeding and it is working to improve their breed, that's great, and there is no reason not to buy from them.

4.
There are many advantages to cross breeding. For example, creating new breeds. That is always fun, though it is a risk if it doesn't catch on. The disadvantanges are that people may think it is cheating. And in a way, it is, because the point of having purebred rabbits is to improve a breed using stock that exists. If someone is just being lazy by using another breed instead of seeking out better stock within the breed and actually trying to improve their line, then it is really only hurting their breed.
 
I did cross breed when I was a kid but that was when I was young and did not know much. I joined 4H and got some pedigree mini Rex's and it took of from there I only did the 2 breeding's my Cali with my french lop.

Now I did see this one cute bunny on here the angora lop. I would love to work on them but not until I get my English lop line and my English angora line solid first. I think it would be a good project me and my kids can work on together.

I believe that if people did not think hay I want a lop bunny that is about the size of a dwarf then there would be no Holland lop. So people have to start with an idea. That is just my thought.

I would buy from someone as long as they told me and I really needed that type in my lines.


 
TinysMom wrote:



  1. Have you ever used "cross-breeding" - meaning using two different breeds of rabbits (or a non-purebred) in your breeding program? If so...why?
  2. Would you ever use a non-pedigreed rabbit that is cross bred in your breeding program? Why would you do this? Why wouldn't you do this? Would your reasons be based on cost/expense (I can get this rabbit for cheap and not buy another one) or based upon the rabbit itself (I can see X in this rabbit and it will add to my herd).
  3. Would you buya rabbit from someone if in the pedigree of that rabbit - there is a cross-bred rabbit? What about rabbits in general - if you knew a breeder used non-pedigreed rabbits or cross-bred rabbits - would you buy from them?
  4. Are there any specific advantages/disadvantages that you see in cross-breeding?
  5. Anything else you want to share?
1. I have cross bred before. Intentionally. A couple of years ago when I first got into breeding rabbits, I crossbred a Lionhead with a Holland Lop. I don't generally condone cross breeding, but that was back when I started.

2. No. Just no. I wouldn't do this. I prefer my stock to be pedigreed so I know what is behind them. I can't stand not having background information on any of my rabbits. I most certainly will not use a mutt in my breeding program. I would rather spend lots of money on a quality pedigreed animal, than an unpedigreed mutt rabbit.

3. I would not. I like my lines to be all purebred & from nice stock. I probably would, as long as I knew what I was buying wasn't crossbred.

4. I don't see an advantages what so ever.

5. Nope :)

 
1. when you raise a breed that has a very small gene pool, sometimes you have no other choice but to cross breed.
2. Yes. if i see a nice rabbit at an auction that looks like a standard chin, florida white, etc, that meets the standard I will pick it up and use it.
3. It depends on who that person is that bred the rasbb
it. If I know its for breed improvement, yes. If its to cheat to win, no.
4. Should be done only to improve the lion. i was told last night that many jersey whoolies, and lion heads, and netherland dwarfs are crossed together for improvement. And that some of the winning rabbits have either one of these breeds mixed in the background.
 
This is kinda off topic... But did you know that Brian Hartzel done cross breeding before. He's 1st JW was a cross bred ND/Fuzzy Lop (and it won BOB several times).
 
mistyjr wrote:
This is kinda off topic... But did you know that Brian Hartzel done cross breeding before. He's 1st JW was a cross bred ND/Fuzzy Lop (and it won BOB several times).
Click to expand...
yes this is off-topic and goes against the guidelines of this topic.

However - I will leave it as an example to others of what I'm NOT looking for in this topic.

We're not looking for hearsay/gossip - but instead - looking for the opinions of the people who are actually ON THIS FORUM and willing to speak for themselves.

Thanks to everyone who has followed the guidelines thus far.


 
dixonsrabbitry1 wrote:
1. when you raise a breed that has a very small gene pool, sometimes you have no other choice but to cross breed.

4. Should be done only to improve the lion. i was told last night that many jersey whoolies, and lion heads, and netherland dwarfs are crossed together for improvement. And that some of the winning rabbits have either one of these breeds mixed in the background.
Click to expand...
Yes - I agree with your first point and I know that when lionheads were first brought into the US they were crossbred with Netherland dwarfs especially to bring down the size and I know that they've been bred with hollands to get the stance folks wanted.

In the five years I've been breeding - I've never heard of cross-breeding lionheads with jerseys been encouraged or discussed much - and always discouraged the few times that it was brought up on the lionhead rabbit list where lots and lots of breeders hang out - I used to have the archives from 3 or 4 years of chats. What many COD holders and experienced breeders told those who would ask about this was that a Netherland/Holland would help influence type/size and it wouldn't mess up the coat/wool at all. I know of no experienced breeders who would recommend that particular combination because it did not work towards improving type and you'd be having to deal with a different coat for generations to come.

[line]
Edited to add: To keep my comments from being "heresay" - members can feel free to join the lionhead rabbitusa list on yahoogroups. It has over 690 members at this point in time...has been around for over 8 years...and has thousands and thousands (and thousands) of messages in their archives. You do have to join the list though to read the messages (and I think you need to be prepared to give your rabbitry name and website information to join - I don't know - I think that changed over the last couple of years).

You can find more information here.

You can also join (I think) by sending a blank email to
[email protected]

[line]

However- this post was really about doing ANY cross-breeds - not focusing on lionheads or any other (even though I did sorta mention the lionlops).

When someone who has won major wins (let's say on the national level) with a rabbit that is still not purebred and is an F1, F2 or F3 wants to come on here themselves and talk about their rabbits - I know we'd love to listen to them and hear their input. Perhaps some of our members will want to reach out to them and ask them to join...after all - we have our own famous judge Pam Nock as part of this forum - we'd love to have others who are well-known also.

I just want to point out that as I've shared...I'm not against cross-breeding - have done it myself - and will probably do it again for lionlops since I do get people asking for them a lot.

Now...sorry for my ramblings - back to the topic as it was meant to be discussed...
 
  1. Have you ever used "cross-breeding" - meaning using two different breeds of rabbits (or a non-purebred) in your breeding program? If so...why?
  2. Would you ever use a non-pedigreed rabbit that is cross bred in your breeding program? Why would you do this? Why wouldn't you do this? Would your reasons be based on cost/expense (I can get this rabbit for cheap and not buy another one) or based upon the rabbit itself (I can see X in this rabbit and it will add to my herd).
  3. Would you buya rabbit from someone if in the pedigree of that rabbit - there is a cross-bred rabbit? What about rabbits in general - if you knew a breeder used non-pedigreed rabbits or cross-bred rabbits - would you buy from them?
  4. Are there any specific advantages/disadvantages that you see in cross-breeding?
  5. Anything else you want to share?
1.) No. I haven't and I won't, not intentionally anyway.

2.) Again, no. I'm VERY strict about the animals that come into my herd. Breeding Himalayans, there's no other breed that matches that type. Breeding in a mix would only screw up type and probably color. I'd rather save my money and buy something nice.

3.) In my breeds, no. There are breeds where it can be acceptable. Like using fuzzy hollands in AFL projects, or fuzzy netherlands in JW project. It's also acceptable for meat rabbits. Sometimes crossing in another breed can help with larger litters, better growth rates... etc.

4.) I'll say this first- ONLY IF YOU HAVE THE EXPERIENCE. Have you been raising rabbits for less than three years? Are you still kinda fuzzy on the details of your breed(s)? Do you know how to pick the POL out of a litter... accurately? If you answer no to any of these questions... NO. You aren't ready! It's a whole different situation and you have to realize that. YES it could yield good results, but if you don't have the experience to back it up, it's a fruitless endeavor. I don't have problems with it when it's done with planning and with a goal in mind. but it's just not worth the trouble otherwise, IMO.
 
TinysMom wrote:
hat as I've shared...I'm not against cross-breeding - have done it myself - and will probably do it again for lionlops since I do get people asking for them a lot.

Now...sorry for my ramblings - back to the topic as it was meant to be discussed...
Click to expand...
I don't know if she will com eon and join. i will ask her. She says she gets a lot of lion head breeders that take a second look at her jersey whoolies that end up with thicker ears, etc. maybe she will let me copy her message here.

The f1's shown at nationals do bother me. Esp when you know the person doing a cross like is only doing it so they can have an easy win(without naming names here). There is one person in my breed that does this, and rabbits bred down from several generations that are still line bred out of that crossbred line have nice type, but no coat.many of the older chin breeders refuse to purchase from that line. Those that have done so have had problems with it. I am currently helping someone that has *that line*, plus mine. Since mine will be cross bred to theirs to improve hopefully it will help them out. They didn't even know the rabbits they purchased were crosses. they are probably going to get ghost chins, and white rabbits somewhere down the line, and lots of them. Grrrrrrrrr. I have a feeling its going to come to a point that the new, and the old lines can be bred together, and i hope it benefits the breed in the end, and not the other way around. i don't have a problem with f2's and 3's as long as the bunny looks nice, and meets the standard. and the animals were used for improvement purposes.

Nope not against crossing either. If you do it its best to have experience, or have someone else that does help you out. :) Not just jump the gun and go cross a standard chin to a florida white so you can have an easy win at nationals. ;)
 
dixonsrabbitry1 wrote:
TinysMom wrote:
hat as I've shared...I'm not against cross-breeding - have done it myself - and will probably do it again for lionlops since I do get people asking for them a lot.

Now...sorry for my ramblings - back to the topic as it was meant to be discussed...
Click to expand...
I don't know if she will com eon and join. i will ask her. She says she gets a lot of lion head breeders that take a second look at her jersey whoolies that end up with thicker ears, etc. maybe she will let me copy her message here.

The f1's shown at nationals do bother me. Esp when you know the person doing a cross like is only doing it so they can have an easy win(without naming names here). There is one person in my breed that does this, and rabbits bred down from several generations that are still line bred out of that crossbred line have nice type, but no coat.many of the older chin breeders refuse to purchase from that line. Those that have done so have had problems with it. I am currently helping someone that has *that line*, plus mine. Since mine will be cross bred to theirs to improve hopefully it will help them out. They didn't even know the rabbits they purchased were crosses. they are probably going to get ghost chins, and white rabbits somewhere down the line, and lots of them. Grrrrrrrrr. I have a feeling its going to come to a point that the new, and the old lines can be bred together, and i hope it benefits the breed in the end, and not the other way around. i don't have a problem with f2's and 3's as long as the bunny looks nice, and meets the standard. and the animals were used for improvement purposes.

Nope not against crossing either. If you do it its best to have experience, or have someone else that does help you out. :) Not just jump the gun and go cross a standard chin to a florida white so you can have an easy win at nationals. ;)
Click to expand...
I'm gonna ask that it come directly from her...sorry. If she's posted messages about it on an email list - folks can always join that and read the archives.

And speaking of cross-breeding...um...looks like I am going to be doing it after all - but for a purpose. No - the purpose isn't show-related but I do have a specific purpose for it.
 
I personally wouldn't cross breed as I simply lack the experience and knowledge to get the desired results. Having said that if I were an experienced breeders who knew her standards inside out etc... I probably would find it more rewarding two spend a few years to achieve a certain goal even if it involved crossbreeding than just going out and buying the right animals. I always enjoy the process more than the result:)
 
I have never used a cross bred in mymini-rex program. I am a stickler for a pedigree with the mini-rex. I however did have a trio of mini-satins and they had florida white and mini-rex in their pedigree. I guess it depends on whether the breed is well established or new. I see no reason for crossbreeding if the breed is well established unless you are trying to create a new variety.

I am considering crossing an otter mini-rex buck with a couple of broken black holland does to create otter and broken otter plush lops. I have lots of people asking for them as pets.

Roger
 
Roger - if you create broken otter plush lops - I want one. I would LOVE that.

I have a doe named "Truly" that is chocolate and I kept thinking how I'd love to breed her - but I had no idea what to breed her to. Everyone who sees her falls in love with her coloring and her personality is interesting too. I got her at Eastertime at TSC.

Today I was at the feed store and they asked me to check the current bunnies they have (turned out all 3 were boys) and they have the same "look" about them that she does as far as breed goes. One boy though is chocolate and black it looks like - his face on one side looks half chocolate and half black. I'm not sure exactly what he's going to turn out to be....but he has her body type and stuff.

So I decided to go ahead and get him and use the two together for a chocolate breeding project. I would like to do more research to see if they fit any breed standard - but if not - I'm only looking at two litters per year....

(We have very few breeders here and if folks want to buy a rabbit - they have to hope to find one locally or drive 3+ hours to a rescue or a show or a pet store...this is why I'm willing to do a cross-breed project with chocolates for a couple of litters).

Edited to add: If I had any problems at all selling the bunnies I have - I wouldn't be doing this. The fact is - I have had people asking me about rabbits - what I have - what I'm going to have - and I've had several folks ask me about different breeds...ie....would I be willing to bring in mini-lops or do I know where to get netherland dwarfs, etc. (Until I brought in lionheads - the ONLY rabbits you could find here in town were Californians and New Zealands).
 
OK Peg you are on the list for one. I have several people that have asked me for them. I don't have any problem selling pets either. I have a waiting list now for at least 18 pets and several show rabbits for youth as soon as I have what they are looking for.

I wonder what the chocolates you have are? How big and what kind of fur. Since your area is into commercial rabbits for than fancy I wonder if they have some havana in them?

Roger
 
Roger

I really lean towards thinking they are some form of havana - I need to study the breed a bit more....but if so - I would like to get a havana to work with them....(you read my mind).
 
Peg

I have a friend with some really nice havanas in black, choc and broken in both varieties. I'll send one with the plush lop.

Roger
 
1. Have you ever used "cross-breeding"- meaning using two different breeds of rabbits (or a non-purebred) in your breeding program? If so...why?

No.


2. Would you ever use a non-pedigreed rabbit that is cross bred in your breeding program? Why would you do this? Why wouldn't you do this? Would your reasons be based on cost/expense (I can get this rabbit for cheap and not buy another one) or based upon the rabbit itself (I can see X in this rabbit and it will add to my herd)?

A cross-bred rabbit without a pedigree is a mutt. There is abolutely no justified reason for anyone doing this. Picking up a rabbit with absolutely no history of the color genetics, line, etc. behind it and working it into a breeding program is very irresponsible, for various reasons and money is certainly not an excuse because you'll end up paying for the care of hundreds of rabbits over the course of many years to breed out all the genetic inconsistencies that something like that could breed in.


3. Would you buya rabbit from someone if in the pedigree of that rabbit - there is a cross-bred rabbit? What about rabbits in general - if you knew a breeder used non-pedigreed rabbits or cross-bred rabbits - would you buy from them?

I know people who have crossed an AFL with a fuzzy HL to improve heads or improve _____. I think that's fine, if the person is knowledgable enough to manipulate their herd in that way and has set goals for it. If I were an AFL breeder, I'd not have a problem buying a rabbit with a fuzzy HL in the backround, if that rabbit would do something for my herd.

I would never buy an unpedigreed rabbit because the fact is, there are plenty of nice pedigreed rabbits out there. Again, when genetic inconsistencies are a possibility (in the case of non-pedigreed rabbits), it makes more sense to put your resources into finding a rabbit with a solid history.


4. Are there any specific advantages/disadvantages that you see in cross-breeding?

I don't really see many advantages, clearly. :p Like I said, breeding a fuzzy HL or something into AFL is fine. Or an ND into JW, to bring in certain characteristics or colors. But to do it without a goal, or to "save money" or something doesn't make sense. And definitely not by an unknowledgable or inexperienced breeder. There are breeders who perform crosses that REALLY help out their herd in the long run. But it takes a lot of hard work, money, and cage space. Cross breeding doesn't get you out easy and isn't better economically. So I think it's mostly a disadvantage, but in some cases, necessary.
 
RAL Rabbitry wrote:
Peg

I have a friend with some really nice havanas in black, choc and broken in both varieties. I'll send one with the plush lop.

Roger
Click to expand...
Will it have a surprise inside?

:biggrin:

First I need to make sure that what I have is havana!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top