Help! Diagnose this young rabbit

[cornflakes]

Doc told me the oral antibiotic has amoxicillin in it and
couple other things...but mostly amoxicillin....the link above said it was listed as "dangerous" for oral....it even said never give amoxicillin orally....but I called another vet and he also confirmed and said it's ok for oral antibiotic for rabbits.

Anyways...i gave him his first days dose ...difficult as it was...he wouldn't stay still for it....tried my best. I'll be giving it the next 5 days.

 

[whitelop]

It says that amoxicillian gives diarrhea after administered orally. So I would keep a lot more hay out there for him, for him to eat and try to keep everything as normal as possible. And make sure he has a lot of water because if he gets diarrhea, he could get dehydrated and thats not good. Rabbits get dehydrated very quickly and it can become really dangerous for them. So if I were you, I would give him extra water and extra hay while you're giving him the antibiotics.

I hope the antibiotics help him!

 

[cornflakes]

Yes, I read that too. I found it very strange that those sites said how bad amoxicillin is for rabbits if given orally...but the vets here all said it's fine. Somebody must be wrong? I'll look out for any diarrhea in the coming days. Since he wouldn't stay still for me to feed him the antibiotic, probably half or more of it just ended up on the ground or on his fur. I think he only got a quarter of the actual liquid in his mouth lol.

I decided to pour some on the carrot pieces and he was eating the carrot along with the antibiotic on it lol. I decided for tomorrow's attempt, I will pre-cut the carrot sticks with a groove in the middle (so it acts like a "slide"). Then I'll angle the carrot up high so he has to tilt his head back and reach a bit to eat the carrot stick...while he does so, I will pour the antibiotic liquid down the carrot groove and hopefully he'll get most of it in his mouth.

Administering the eye cream has been difficult too. Since he's a wild rabbit, he won't stay still for me to put it in his eye. Unfortunately, this isn't a droplet. It's an actual jelly cream that has to be put in his eye! I have to be careful not to damage his eye with the tip of the tube....I washed my hands and made sure they're clean cuz I'll try to massage or rub it in his eye if I miss.

Another thing is, I put the steel fence and divided the pen now. But sometimes it seems they want to reach each other still (the new male and the dad rabbit). The new female rabbit (black eye patch) was the only biting fur and being aggressive during her pregnancy phase. The other one (orange eye patch) was actually very gentle and similar to the dad rabbit. But since I have separated the 2 new rabbits from the dad rabbit, it seems that the orange eye patch tries to reach out to the dad rabbit....maybe they liked each other. Unfortunately, I put him with the black eye patch rabbit since they came together at the same time....guilty by association? (just to be safe).

The weekend is coming up and nobody will be able to administer the meds for 2 days. I was thinking, should I take the dad rabbit home with me for the weekend to administer the meds? Or will missing 2 days not be a serious problem (then I just resume the meds on Monday when I'm back)?

 

[Ilovemyrabbit]

I don't know much about the matter, but I just wanted to say that I'm really sorry about the condition the poor dad rabbit is in. And I hope he clears up soon. He's really lucky to have you. And it seems like your doing the right thing by getting him antibiotics. The poor bunny, I really hope he gets well soon. I'll be praying and thinking of him often ray:. Keep us updated.

 

[cornflakes]

This of course has made me think about Lucky Star again.... I wonder why when he had the ear infection, I was only given medication for the ear infection (revolution)....but no sort of oral antibiotic?? It makes me think that since Lucky Star had the ear infection for so long and it went untreated, it may have spread deeper in his system? So even though the ear infection was cured and dealt with, physically he was looking better and healing up, but could that have also been the time when he may have either contracted another infection/virus/bacterial? I'm still so mad about that. The problem with language barrier and cultural differences, I'm starting to feel like these korean vets don't really give a ****. They'll just give me the bare necessity but not give me a heads up warning about what other illness or risk of disease he may have incurred.
I was just so focused on the ear infection, when I saw that it was getting better, I didn't think at all about the possibility there may have been something else internal that I couldn't see. So we were just happy to see his ears got better and fur was growing back...but then one day BAM...he just loses all coordination and dies within 12 hours.

I know I should only have a good thoughts and memories....but I'm still overwhelmed with frustration and anger that somebody didn't know better to suggest to me that he may have had an internal disease that could have been cured or treated at around the same time as his ear infection. The reason why it made me think this is because when I read about the eye infection for the dad rabbit yesterday, it said something like, if the eye infection is not treated, it could spread to the brain, attack the nervous system (thus lose coordination) and lead to death. Then when I read the medication on the eye ointment...one of the ingredients role was a nervous system blocker or something that would inhibit or block the infection from spreading to the nerves and brain....

So when Lucky had the ear infection for about 6-8 months untreated....then finally I got him treated....could something have gotten through to his nervous system or brain? Even though the exterior ear infection all cleared up and the crust fell off and the fur re-grew.....3 months later, he gets like a sudden stroke or attack of something that exhibited symptoms an internal bacterial infection, affecting both his urine and his brain (the loss of coordination would indicate it was a brain attack). He wasn't paralyzed...he could move his legs front and back fine...it was just all out of whack and coordination....so it must've been some slowly processing infection that was slowly deteriorating his brain until the final day it suddenly manifested itself externally and he died within 12 hours.

I wish I could have had an autopsy done to know exactly what happened....but since I don't know and probably never will...I'm just always angry when I think back ....if someone (the vet) could have suggested or warned me of possible risks and take precautionary tests....I WOULD HAVE. I don't know...it just feels like he didn't have to die...there was a window of opportunity to save him and the ear infection wasn't the only issue then, but it was the only one that was externally evident.

 

[whitelop]

Well he had ear mites then and the revolution took care of the mites, but like you said you didn't get any antibiotics to fight what was probably going on in the inside BECAUSE of the mites.
I think there is a huge cultural difference between the way people take care of their animals in other countries. Which is really crappy. I would be a little cautious of the vets over there because they might not be as rabbit savvy as other vets.
When do you come back to Canada? This fall? Maybe you could ask the people that you work for to let you have the dad rabbit? You could ship him or probably bring him as a carry on on the plane, depending on what airline you take. Then in Canada he would have a happy life we you or you could find someone else to take him and give him a good home if you didn't want the responsibility of him.

I think if you just try to get as much of everything into his during each dose, its going to help. Like with my cats, I have one that fights me and only gets half doses but it usually makes her better even still.
Or if giving him the whole dose isn't working that well, you could split it up into two different dosing times, like when you get there and before you leave just half the dose each time. That might be easier to give to him. And then try to put a little bit of eye ointment on his eye each time you try to give him the antibiotics.
I don't know about the 2 days that you won't be there. I think maybe you should take him home with you, but you wouldn't want to put any added stress on him. So either way, its difficult. Maybe someone else could help you with what would happen with the antibiotics.

Do the people who own the rabbits understand that the male and female that are together will just continue to breed and the female will have back to back litters? Like as soon as females have the litter of kits, they can get pregnant again so they would have a 4 week old litter of kits then have newborn kits. Thats not very good for her. Rabbits don't go into heat like other animals do, they're induced ovulators so when they mate they drop eggs to be fertilized.
Anyway, I hope they know that and if not, then the male should be separated from the female at some point to give her a break.

 

[JBun]

Please, DO NOT give any more of the amoxicillin. There is a reason it is on the dangerous antibiotics list, it can be fatal if given orally to rabbits. It kills off the good bacteria in their gut, and allows bad bacteria to flourish and cause fatal diarrhea. Once this happens to a rabbit it takes many meds to even have a possibility of clearing up, but quite often can't be. Diarrhea in a rabbit is a critical situation, it's not the same as it is with us. Once a rabbit gets diarrhea, it often dies. The dad would be better off not getting the oral antibiotic, and just try the eye ointment if you can't get a hold of a *safe* antibiotic for rabbits. You'll want to keep a very close eye on the dads poop to see if the little that he got, caused any problems. If you can't get a hold of any probiotics, it might be best to try the ophthalmic antibiotics first, without the oral one, to see if that is going to work. Oral antibiotics should really be given with non dairy probiotics. If you find the eye infection isn't clearing up with just the eye ointment, then maybe try oral antibiotics that are safe for the dad bun to take. For safer antibiotics, the safest one is enrofloxacin, oxytetracycline might be a possibility and more readily available where you are(always make sure dosages are correct). But you want to ask for one of these specific antibiotics, and don't just let them give you whatever they want.

I would suggest not bringing the dad bun home with you. I think it would cause him a lot of stress to leave the environment he is used to, and with an already sick rabbit, stress can sometimes be fatal to them. Probably the best thing to do would be apply the ointment right before you leave for the weekend, and reapply it right when you get back. When you are there, if you can at least apply it 3x a day, that will help give the best chance of it helping to clear up the infection. A trick I used with my buns to apply the eye ointment, was to wash my hands, then apply a bit of the ointment on the end of my finger, then use my finger to get it onto the corner of the eye. I also felt better not putting tip of the ointment tube near their eye, cause I was worried they would move when I did it and it would hit the eye.

It's pretty normal for a pregnant female bun to fight with a male that is trying to mate with her, so that would be what happened to the dad. And it's understandable that he still wants to be with the other rabbits even after being beat up. You'll want to make sure he's eating ok after being separated from the other rabbits. If they were getting along at that point, it might actually stress him to be separated from them.

I think Lucky Star may just have had a weak immune system, that made him susceptible to more easily catching something. What happened to him probably didn't have anything to do with his ear problem. That was caused by ear mites and not an ear infection. It's possible he could have also had an ear infection, but I think after his ears healed from the ear mites, that you would have noticed signs of his ears bothering him. Rabbits can be so sensitive and fragile, and they hide illness well, it can be hard to catch when they are sick sometimes. I know, it's horrible to loose them, and it can happen so fast. I lost a little bun last year, and it still upsets me and makes me sad.

 

[kmaben]

Jen has a valid reason on taking the dad bun home. However, is it a possibility to take the rabbit home, say he died, and not get in trouble at work?

 

[cornflakes]

Sorry I just read the last 2 posts rightn now and I had already I decided to to bring him home for the weekend. I got permission cuz I told them I was taking him to the doctors and that he needed someone to give him meds for 6 days in a row. The bus ride home was nerve racking for him and for me cuz I could tell he was stressed being in the box for the 20 minute ride. When I got him home, I set up his little area quickly and put some unused soft blankets and stuff....I made one section open and the other enclosed (since they like the secure feeling). After investigating for a couple of minutes his new surroundings, he went into the dark corner and sat on the soft blankets...he automatically goes there all the time now to lie down and rest or sleep after eating a bit.

Here are a couple pictures.

I put that fence to split the rabbits up but somehow they still found a way to get to the other side and I found them laying together. When I bring him back, I'll keep using that steel fence...at least until he's completely better and then slowly see if they can be together. The biting may have only happened since the new rabbit was pregnant and building her fur nest.

 

[whitelop]

He actually looks pretty comfortable there. BUT that is A LOT of carrots! haha. They don't need that many, like half to one of those sticks is plenty! Are you still giving him hay? Make sure he's still eating it, thats super important especially since he's stressed out.

He's such a handsome boy, poor thing.

 

[cornflakes]

I forgot the hay at work! I left all my stash there. I'll have to go and buy some for the time being. Oh, I didn't know that was too many carrots. I checked his poop and they're smaller and more irregular shaped now...not those big round cecotropes. I don't know if it's because he's just eating less since the eye infection or if the meds might be giving him a bit of an upset stomach?

I found the translation of the oral antibiotic and it's Amoxicillin, Previcox (couldn't find much info about this), and Ibuprofen .... i'm getting some "don't give him that!" but the vets here are saying to me it's fine. Not sure exactly what to do...I'll just give him a little and try not to do the full dosage if his poop is looking worse.

The eye ointment has Neomycin (3.5mg) and polymixin B sulfate

Besides the wetness in his fur and white pus from his eye....it seems a little swollen around the eye....when should I start to see improvements and when I should I be worried if there is no improvement? Say about 4-6 days?

Should I apply some eye ointment on the other eye too just to be safe? I am aware of not infecting the other eye by using the same finger i used to rub on the infected eye.

 

[KeltonB]

Dad looks so at home there! I am glad you decided to take him home. I wonder if the people you work for would even miss him if you "forgot" to take him back? Or could you buy the rabbit from them? I'd send you some money for sure.

Thank you for taking care of him!:bunnyheart

 

[JBun]

Actually, the dad bun looks completely relaxed and happy. If he was stressed he would most likely be hiding hunched up in the corner and making very skittish movements, but he's laying down, chewing on toys, those are signs of a content little guy Glad I was wrong, and you missed my note and brought him home. Maybe you could just keep him. They won't miss him, right

I'm still insistant on the amoxicillin being dangerous to give him. Even here in the US, there are vets that aren't very experienced with rabbits, and make the same mistake of prescribing amoxicillin. So even though they are vets, if they aren't rabbit vets, and have specific training with rabbits, vets will make this mistake. They think that because it is ok for other animals, that it should be ok for rabbits too, but rabbits digestive systems are different than other pet animals like dogs or cats. Rabbits are hind gut fermenters, and are more like horses in how they digest food. Rabbits rely on the balance of good bacteria in their GI tract, to digest their food and keep things flowing normally. The smaller irregular shaped poop that you are now seeing, is a first sign of a GI slowdown called stasis. This is the beginning sign of the bacterial balance being disrupted. If it isn't corrected, it could continue to deteriorate and you can end up with soft mushy poop, diarrhea, and/or a blockage. Both a blockage and diarrhea can end up being fatal. I'll include some info and warnings about giving amoxicillin, as well as a good explaination of the basic function of the rabbit GI and what happens when the bacterial balance is disrupted. If you really feel he needs antibiotics, getting injections of penicillin would be ok, or for oral antibiotics, call the vet and ask if they have enrofloxacin, oxytetracycline, or even neomycin which can have some side effects, would be better.

With the dad bun showing signs of stasis, I would suggest not feeding any sugary treats, like carrots, and feeding lots of hay. That will help get the gut moving better again. The more grass hay you feed, the better. A little leafy greens, like parsley, would be ok as a treat, unless you start seeing soft poop or diarrhea. If you do start seeing actual watery diarrhea, not just soft mushy poop, or he stops pooping, then it is an emergency. Here is info on what to do for and what meds to give for, GI stasis(pooping stops) and diarrhea, just in case you end up needing it. Hopefully you don't, but I wanted to give you the info for if you find yourself in this situation. And I just want to commend you for helping this little guy. Not everyone would bother to help an animal not their own, and especially in a foreign country.

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/squirts.pdf

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/1/amoxicillin-warning.html
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/exotic_and_laboratory_animals/rabbits/management_of_rabbits.html
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=484#.UZ8FPbx7LTo.twitter

ankara"
Post 3
"The article mentions that amoxicillin antibiotic can be prescribed for cats and dogs. That's true, it can be. But some veterinarians make the assumption that amoxicillin can also be given to other animals and that is not true.

I had a pet rabbit die because the veterinarian prescribed amoxicillin trihydrate for her. She developed a severe diarrhea after two days of taking the antibiotic and the next morning, I lost her.
I found out later that amoxicillin is toxic to rabbits and causes enterotoxemia. It's a condition where toxins from the intestines enter the bloodstream and eventually cause death. So if anyone is thinking about giving their pets this antibiotic, only do if the pet is a dog or cat and at the recommended dose. I wouldn't want what happened to me to happen to anyone else."

 

[kmaben]

I'm in agreeance with the amoxocillin. To much research out there shows Amoxicillin dangerous to rabbits. There is a thread on here between vets talking about even the injectable and how much is to much.
The eye ointment is just fine for his poor eye. (Thank you Shya for the very indepth learning on rabbit eyes.) It should start to look better in more like 7-10 days. It wont hurt to stick it in the other eye but its like taking a tylenol when you dont have a headache. If he's not showing any signs or symptoms of infection in the good eye I'd leave him be. But keep that oinment just in case. Lots o Hay, hay hay! He'll have tummy issues from the move, carrots, getting handled for medicating and the medications themselves. Nothing hay, fresh water, and some TLC wont cure. I'm wondering if I couldnt find missycove or Geoff to chime in on an antibiotic you could request specifically.
He looks rather content and quite at home *hint hint* :whistling
Scaredy rabbits wont interact with toys like Jen said or splay legs out like that. He probably wouldnt be that difficult to tame either and be a loving companion. Plus those ears are mighty hard to resist!
Some countrys dont even care about their people let alone animals. Romania has no reguard for animals as pets and only has one shelter in the entire country. They aren't third world or "backwards" just the country mentality much like the Koreans. You want to save them all but simply cant. It's amazing what you're doing for this one little guy right in front of you.

 

[ZoeStevens]

I would treat both eyes... he could easily rub his face on something on one side, then on the other, and transmit the infection to the other side of his face (it's only a couple inches away, after all), and by the time you notice and treat the second eye the infection could be more resistant to treatment.

And, as you know, be sure not to touch the tip of the ointment tube to the eye. I wouldn't be touch it to your finger. Either let it drip onto your finger (as opposed to wiping your finger against it) or put it on a q-tip and then transfer to your finger.

 

[cornflakes]

Thanks for all that information. This is very disturbing news to hear how bad amoxicillin can be for rabbits and WHY the vets here prescribed it. His poop is definitely smaller and not big and round cecotropes. Actually, i'm not sure if he's pooping a lot now...I saw his rear end and it looks like there's one or two big poops stuck there...just hanging on there.... He's not eating the hay too well....he only wants the other foods (there's this fruit/veggie pellet food that he really likes). I tried feeding him the hay but he doesn't eat it.

I will stop feeding him the oral antibiotic from this moment on ...we're only 2.5 days in. I hope he's not going into GI Stasis.... not sure how else to get him to eat the hay. I won't give him any carrots either for now. Also, he was disturbed today by construction noise going on in our building. It seemed to startle him because he's been breathing really fast all day today....his nose is twitching super fast and his breathing is short and very fast...he lays down a lot and just rests...but the fast breathing isn't really stopping....not sure if that is a sign related to onset GI stasis?

 

[PaGal]

Can you find a cardboard box big enough for him to fit into? If so you could put that in his area for him to hide in. That may help him to feel safer from the construction noises.

If you haven't done so yet you could try hand feeding him the hay. Sometimes if you also hold some hay and just keep holding it near his mouth he may decide to eat some.

 

[PaGal]

Can you find a cardboard box big enough for him to fit into? If so you could put that in his area for him to hide in. That may help him to feel safer from the construction noises.

If you haven't done so yet you could try hand feeding him the hay. Sometimes if you also hold some hay and just keep holding it near his mouth he may decide to eat some.

You could also sprinkle a few pellets in his hay so that he has to forage to get the pellets and he may decide to eat some hay.

 

[cornflakes]

The good news today is that I saw some poop again after not seeing any for a few hours. They were also a bit bigger and rounder now in shape. I didn't give hiim the oral antiobitic (amoxicillin) since yesterday morning, only the eye ointment. I handfed him the hay (he really likes the hairy/bushy part more than the stem...that's all he would eat from me so I picked out all the bushy pieces). I also fed him some dark green lettuce (not iceberg) and parsley. I also did a bit of tummy massaging sessions a few times so not really sure if all or some of those things helped. Hopefully he won't need the oral antibiotic unless i can get a safer one.

I'm wondering if the poop issue might have been due to him being moved to my house and was stressed by the change + the construction noise...now that he's had almost 2 days here he might be calming down and less stressed? SO it's either the not using the oral antibiotic is what helped him get his poop better or that he has less stress now after being in my place for 2 days now.

His eye seems to be slowly getting better....still wet around the fur...but i think it's looking a tiny bit better each day.

He's such a well behaved rabbit. I leave the cage door open all the time now and he doesn't even come out much. When he does come out, he just wanders the room for 2 minutes and then quickly scurries back into the cage lol.

Once I was working on my computer and he came into pop his head and have a look lol.

 

[cornflakes]

Some short clips i took:
Video