help? 4 week old babies adopted!!!

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I really don't think you should. If they are doing fine by themselves then I don't think introducing something that is not adequate for a rabbit is ideal.

Also, in the past I asked Randy about giving cecals and he said to not do it because it potentially introduces a new bacteria to them (as in not their mother's one).

I wonder if people in the Rabbitry might be able to help more than in Nutrition and Behaviour.
 
Maybe these might be relevant

from http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=46523&forum_id=16

Something you did say raised my concerns.....you mentioned KMR and Goat's Milk in the same sentence as cottontails. KMR and Goat's Milk are inappropriate for rabbits. That idea comes from years ago when it was thought cats and rabbits were similar (and some vets still think that way with medical treatments). We now know that it isn't the correct nutrition for a rabbit. It's OK to use short term to condition the gut to formula. But long term, it is nothing close to what mom's milk is and falls far short in nutritional values. Even the professional formulas we use in rehab can't match the nutrients in rabbit milk....we are getting closer but we aren't there yet. The formulas I feed are much higher in protein and fat and is fortified with proper components that KMR and Goat's Milk are lacking. We have several formulas we use with rabbits but this year it seems we are having more success with Pet Ag 33/40...aka Esbilac Puppy Powder. It has to be the powder and not the pre-mixed stuff. The powder is much higher in fat and protein and contains more fortified components.

This thread might be useful to read http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=46203&forum_id=8

and this one too.
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=46109&forum_id=8

Generally it seems to say that alfalfa hay is important, and offer unlimited pellets and hay.

I'm hoping someone can clarify about the KMR because I've read in plenty of places here it is not necessarily ideal.

It sounds like your kits are doing well at the moment eating, and they are stable? Producing good poo? Eating? Drinking? Weeing?

I just worry about introducing something potentially not great, and not needed, to them.
 
You know Tracy
I think that I'll move this to the rabbitry ; there have been several other posts re. 4 week old being adopted out.

Our breeders are really good with this sort of situation

I had suggested supplemental feeding in another thread and was told
NO"
 
I am only recommending KMR as a vehicle to dissolve some cecals in, based on those sites I posted. They say it can help establish the right GI bacteria. I don't have any experience of my own with this, I have just read it on those sites and in those posts. It's up to you if you want to do it, since there are conflicting opinions about it. I recommend reading the links Flashy and I posted so you can get an idea of whether or not you want to give the babies cecals from another bunny, how many, and how often. I am not in a position to argue one way or the other, since my experience is totally second-hand and comes through Naturestee's experience and reading those sites I posted.

Please read the first-hand accounts of people who have done this or not done this and whether or not they had success. These are posted in the sites we've linked to. Only you can make the decision if you want to feed them cecals, and I think we've provided good information arguing both for and against it. It comes down to a judgement you'll have to make for your own bunnies.

The input of breeders who have seen this before would also be good.
 
I was just about to quote tonyshuman but then she edited it :p. I completely agree. My experience is only through reading about others, I have never experienced anything like this first hand.

I also completely agree that it comes down to your judgement and what you think it best :) We all want what's best for your bunnies, at the end of the day.

You have a lot of info here, and hopefully some breeders might chime in too, and that will hopefully help you make whatever decision you feel is right for these bunnies :)

Please keep us updated.
 
Thanks for all of the help.
They go in and out with there eating habits for example.....one day they will eat allot then the next day they will hardly eat anything.
My concerns are they don't poop allot at all:(
I already gave them some KMR and cecal and they drank it like there was no tomorrow! They don't eat hay.
 
Hi,

DO NOT USE KMR!! Or Goat's Milk. That is very old school ideas that come from that ancient time when it was thought that cats and rabbits were alike. There are fundamental differences in the guts of rabbits and cats. Rabbits are herbivores and are hind gut fermenters.....cats are carnivores and eat meat. Big difference. In the rehab world, we do sometimes use KMR or Goat's Milk to precondition an intake's gut....but those formulas are nothing much more than water....and they are used very short term. They are totally inappropriate nutrition for a rabbit. Even the professional formulas we use in rehab can't match a rabbit's milk....close, but not quite. It is likely that these rabbits may need formula in their diet. The best we are using with rabbits right now is Esbilac Puppy Powder....not the pre-mix liquid.....the powder. We generally feed approx. 10% of body weight twice a day....once a day if they are eating solids. And as mentioned, and we use in rehab, a probiotic is certainly indicated in this situation. That gut still has to convert to the acidic adult gut....and if you can buffer and control that conversion with probiotics, the more likely the babies are to survive the true weaning (and I can assure you that these rabbits are not weaned and do not have what I call a "ready gut"). I also do not feed cecals from another rabbit....another outdated idea. First, if you are getting cecals from a rabbit...something isn't right. They need them to support their own system. And you never know if you are transferring parasites. And the idea about feeding cecals is another of those ideas from a time that little was known about rabbits. We are routinely raising cottontails (and they are much more difficult than domestics) that never get cecals from their mom or another rabbit. I raise cottontails strictly on the Esbilac powder mixed with Bene-Bac (a probiotic). They are also bedded in alfalfa hay....food all around. I never offer cottontails pellets during rehab...but I do with domestics...and I also give them small amounts of high nutrition greens such as kale, dandelions and carrot tops. The primary concern in baby rabbits....and often overlooked....is hydration. This is one of the primary killers of baby rabbits in rescue. We think nothing of sticking these guys with sub-q fluids.

So in summary, based on my experience of hand raising hundreds of baby rabbits---

If you offer a formula, use Esbilac Puppy Powder. Offer a diluted formula of about 1 part powder to 4 parts water and then over a period of a couple of days come up to full formula of 1 part powder to2 parts water.

Add a probiotic to the formula.

Offer unlimited hay....mostly alfalfa but grass hays too.

Offer very limited high nutritional greens.

Offer a high quality pellet.

And one final comment....in most US states....it is illegal to remove a rabbit from it's mother until they are 8 weeks old....and that is true even in this backward state of NC.

Good luck. It will be a challenge but I can assure you that these guys can pull thru if you play your cards right. We do it every year from February thru October with wild rabbits and from time to time with domestics. Think smart and understand how a rabbit works....and keep in mind that it is not a cat or a goat.

Randy
 
On occasion, we've had to wean babies at 3-4 and they do just fine on regular pellets. (I usually give a little steam rolled oats also) A little bit of apple/carrots/greens can be added for additional moisture to the diet. Any type of formula isn't necessary for weaned bunnies that have been doing fine on their own. Most of the immunoglobins are acquired from colostrum that thebabies get from their first few days of nursing.

Remember, that in the wild the babies are weaned by 31 days when the new litter arrives.

Pam

 
pamnock wrote:
On occasion, we've had to wean babies at 3-4 and they do just fine on regular pellets. (I usually give a little steam rolled oats also) A little bit of apple/carrots/greens can be added for additional moisture to the diet. Any type of formula isn't necessary for weaned bunnies that have been doing fine on their own. Most of the immunoglobins are acquired from colostrum that thebabies get from their first few days of nursing.

Remember, that in the wild the babies are weaned by 31 days when the new litter arrives.

Pam
I agree. ^

From my limited experiences...

The ones sold at local pet store here were advertised at 7 weeks. Like you, Pam, I've supplemented with teensy pinches of oats and apple for eastern cottontails as a rehabilitator. Minimal pinches for domestics after a certain age. Like you Pam I've also closely monitored and added greens, tiny apple bits or carrots.

We've watched the eastern cottontail babes in our front lawn be lectured by mom to establish their own apartment and area, and mom said, "no more milk!, you're big enough!"

I hope they'll grow big and strong, and continue to thrive and be healthy! Hoping Mom Rabbit gave them a good start!!

 

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