Gut stasis

[Bangbang]

So now Bangbangs had gut stasis as well. They want me to feed her just hay but she wont eat it. HELP



edit: stasis

 

[DazyDaizee]

I don't know what you've tried already.. but you can try chopping the hay and/or soaking some in water, some rabbits will eat it this way.
You should try offering several different brands and types of hay. Some rabbits prefer coarser hay, some prefer softer, some prefer different types of grass hays over others. Timothy is always a great one, but try Orchard Grass, Brome, Oat, etc and see if any of them entice her.

I am also concerned about feeding JUST hay for stasis. I would up greens as well because the moisture content is crucial for resolving stasis.

This is my favorite article on stasis:
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-7/gi.html

 

[tonyshuman]

It is really important to get some water into her. Give pedialyte (dioralyte in UK, not sure what the AUS version is) to her by a feeding syringe. I usually offer canned pumpkin for a bunny in stasis, along with lots of water, pedialyte, vegetables that have been soaked in water. Also give her some probiotic if you can--here we have Bene-Bac and Probios, but if you can't find that, use human acidophilus capsules--just cut them open and put the powder in water in a feeding syringe or on wet greens. I don't think just hay is a good option--canned pumpkin is great because it is wet and has lots of fiber. Also give some simethicone (ovol I think is the brand name there) baby medicine 1mL/hr for 3hrs. I'd make sure she gets at least 20mL of water or pedialyte into her.

 

[Maureen Las]

How is Bang Bangs doing??

 

[Bangbang]

Hi all, she's doing much better. I'm really not happy with the vet that saw her everything she said seems to contridict what the other vet told us.
Bangbangs doing well I ended up giving her critical care, hay (and carrot out of desperation). Her poops are looking good now, she's weeing normally, and back to her old self.
It's just been a nightmate from the calcium sludge to this!

I'm trying to get my hands on some different hay, the problem is where i live, we just dont have access to much variety or good quality products. The vet i liked gave me a link to www.oxbow.com.au they have different hays that are low calcium high fiber and ive emailed them too see if i can order some and get it shipped over to perth. At least that way i can try some different types and see how she responds to it.

I'm still concerned with her diet though, this other vet said
"Just feed her hay occasionally some carrot and apple"
That just seems totally wrong to me?!?!

When she had the calcium sludge the vet said to feed her oaten hay and fresh vegetables making sure they are low in calcium?

I'm really confused.

I printed off the documents i got from this site regarding calcium content but i'm confused as to what's considered a low calcium content?

Further more i've adopted two baby guinea pigs that were dumped at work, I want them to live with my older guinea pig as she's attached to Bangbang (Bangbang doesnt care for her at all) and when Bangbang came to live with me the pig stopped eating so I had to bring Bangbang back to my parents!!!!
Now I was firstly going to ask whats the best way to introduce two young female pigs to a 2yr old female pig? BUTTTT now i THINK one of the pigs is pregnant!?!?!? I'm trying to recall how long i've had them i think around 3weeks now when i got them the vet thought they were around 3-4weeks old?! They are all definately female but we have no idea where they came from. Adviceeeee please??

Much more stress and i'll explode!

 

[Bangbang]

Just one more little vent to get it off my chest!! I'm just so frustrated as even the vets that know the most still seem to be so behind! In the end it’s her life on the line if they give out incorrect or inadequate information. My biggest concern is where this is all heading, without the right information I’m limited in what I can do, it’s really stressing me out. I want the best for her; I want her to be healthy and to live till she's an old bunny. She's just turned 4, I want many more years with her and at the moment it just like one hurdle after another and I’m really scared of where this is all heading, arugh just feeling so emotional right now i just love her so much if anything happens to her I’m just going to be so crushed.

 

[ra7751]

Umm....I see the same misinformation is in Australia too.

Carrots and apples should be considered treats and should be fed in limited amounts. Hay should be the vast majority of a rabbit's diet.

Any hay that is safe for a horse is safe for a rabbit. Find the equine community as horses also need unlimited amounts of grass hay.

And for the calcium issue. Well, rabbits do metabolize calcium differently than most other animals and excrete over half of their calcium intake in the urine. The part of this issue that I have a problem with is that rabbits have bones and teeth and those body parts need calcium. And a lack of calcium can cause a condition known as Metabolic Bone Disease. The name if misleading. While it does lead to brittle bones, it is a system wide issue and affects all body systems. Can cause anything from dental issues to fractures to seizures, organ failure and death in some more extreme cases. While it has long been thought that limiting calcium will prevent bladder sludge....not necessarily. Some rabbits, like people, are prone to calcifications like sludge and stones. Some of the deposits are not caused by calcium but by mineral deposits in the drinking water. But there are two issues that are primary in this issue. One is that most domestic rabbits are dehydrated since they eat an artificial diet. Just think, wild rabbits eat mostly vegetation and that is mostly water. Also, most domestic rabbits are deficient in Vitamin D. This vitamin is crucial in aiding in the body's abosorbing of calcium. Since many of our rabbits are either inside or sheltered quite a bit if they are outside, they don't get sunlight.....and exposure to unfiltered sunlight and/or dietary supplements are the only way to get Vitamin D. Ask your vet or any human nutritionalist since most humans are also deficient in Vitamin D since we don't get outside in the sun much any longer.

Randy

 

[Maureen Las]

I get my hay from oxbow

Iwonder if they have distributors in other countries..:?

It would cost a whole lot to ship hay from midwestern US to Australia....

The doctor is Wrong that a rabbit needs hay only occasionaly; they really should have it all the time. I think that maybe some of our members in Australia or surrounding areas could possibly be of some help but it seem as ifI have heard before that hay is difficult to get in Australia althoughI don't know why. What are horses fed in Australia ?. here in the states a lot of horse hay is a grass mix , maybe some alfalfa but usually grass hay; the hay here for horses (in general) could be fed to a rabbit .
The low calcium diet for a sludge rabbit is a something that is really done as a precautionary measure. There is so much conflicting info on this that it is no wonder you are confused; we all are in away.
Some people feel that to lower the calcium content too low will weaken the rabbit's skeletal system and cause problems in itself. it is now thought that diet is not the main cause for sludge but most likely the body's inability to use calcium corectly; possibly there are other minerals and vitamins that need to work with calcium in order for it to work efficiently and be utilized correctly by the body.
Maybe this is a genetic factor, maybe it is environmental (the need for Vitamin D in the form of sunshine ) in order for the calcium to be utilized. I do not think that anyone is clear on this yet.
Right now there is a thread that is active by Amy27 in re. to her rabbit Chase who has been successfully treated for blader sludge over a long period of time. it would be worth it to read this entire thread as it is an excellent case example with a very positive outcome.

She just started Chase on pellets after many years without them and this has surprisingly helped him.
I would think that one could lower calcium levels in veggies, not feed alfalfa and feed a lower calcium pellet but not actually work to eliminate all calcium which would be difficult to do anyway.

Supplemental fluids ifor a bladder sludge rabbit is of utmost important and some folks even add cranberry juice in small amounts to increase the water intake ; if the problem is serious the rabbit can be given subqutaneous fluids.

Anyway once againI recommend reading Amy27/s thread on chase as Bladder Sludge 101

 

[Maureen Las]

LOL Randy I was writing while you were posting; i don't think that we contradicted each other !!

 

[Maureen Las]

Here is Amy's thread on Chase

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=43493&forum_id=16

 

[Bangbang]

Thanks for that, my biggest issue with the low calcium diet is exactly that, she needs calcium for bones etc so cutting it out is just absurd!

I meant to write "hay and occasionally apple/carrot"

Bangbang spends most of her time outside, her cage is outside and she free ranges in the yard so she gets a lot of sunlight. Her diet used to be fresh hay, veggies, pellets (which she no longer gets) and whatever she ate in the garden. I feel with her its not a high calcium diet but more likely she has a predisposition to the condition. She was also overweight but is no longer.
I can get oxbow in australia but from eastern states its still not going to be cheap but too bad i want whats best for her so ill just have to make sacrifices elsewhere.

any info on g.pigs?

 

[DazyDaizee]

What type of hay do you normally feed? Or what made up the largest portion of her regular meals when she had the bladder sludge?

GPs: Females are generally easier to bond than males. From what I've read, it's more similar to rat bonding than rabbit bonding. Pigs often WILL fight at some point to work out their dominance. Fighting is okay without serious injuries and it's better to let them get it over with than to keep breaking it up and delaying it. Once the dominant pig is established and the pecking order down from there, you shouldn't see fighting. Bickering does occur in some groups, but often females tend to just get along after they've figured out their place in the group.
I, personally, have never bonded two GPs. I had an old male and a young male. It worked for a while, then the young male hit puberty, there was a lot of fighting, I separated, not knowing what to do. After several attempts to reintroduce as I would with rabbits, fighting still occurred and I had the young male neutered. Before we tried reintros the older male got sick and passed away. However, I read a lot in the mean time, preparing myself to "bond" them. And once I found that it's similar to rats (which I've done more than 25 intros with), I realized how much more sense it made.

Why do you think one of the baby GPs is pregnant?
Gestation period is 59-72 days, more commonly about 65 days.
A female guinea pig can be fertile at 4wks old, and a male at 3-5wks, so double check your sexes before trying any intros with the adult female. If your adult female has never had a litter, depending on her age, the pelvis can actually fuse. If this happens and she becomes pregnant, she is likely to require a c-section when the babies are ready to be born and may otherwise die.

 

[Maureen Las]

This is the best guinea pig site there is and thereis also a forum



http://www.guinealynx.info/

 

[Amy27]

I don't worry to much about how much calcium is in the food I give Chase. I tried that and it didn't make a difference. I make sure that I am not feeding her veggies everyday that have the most calcium. I just feed a wide variety of different things. I do try to watch the calcium in treats I may get. I feel like because I am not strick over her food, she doesn't need extra calcium in treats. So I read the back of treat containers and try to pick things with little to no calcium.

I would make sure she gets lots of water. Soak her veggies for an hour before feeding them. That will make them lose a lot of water soluble vitamins but for me, I think it is worth it to get the water flowing through the bladder. The veggies will soak up the water.

Sludge tends to sit on the bottom of the bladder, so the more you can get the sludge off the bottom of the bladder, by bangbang moving around, the better chance you have of the urine containing more sludge when she goes. I try to give Chase as much time as I can out and running around. I love stairs. I think it is a different type of movement then regular running around so I get her running up and down the stairs.

Does bangbang drink a lot of water? You could try to flavor the water to get her to drink more. The only problem with that is if she really likes it, you may be doing that forever. I even tried making my own cilantro flavoring. I blended up cilantro really good with water and put it in a water bottle. I've tried using an animal bottle. I also purchased a cat fountain to try and get her to drink more water. I put bowls of water in all her favorite spots around the house to hang out. I also offer water bottles and bowls. The first 4 years I had Chase I only had water bottles. Well I found out when she got a bladder stone that she actually prefers a bowl. Her caged area still has both. 2 water bottles and 2 water bowls.

As Randy mentioned about the mineral content of your water. I tried using filtered water for filling water bowls and soaking veggies. I bought a filter that attaches to your sink faucet.

 

[tonyshuman]

What about hay grown for horses? Any type of grass hay should be good for her.

 

[Bangbang]

I will look into the water filter actually as here in perth the water is pretty hard. She has always drunk from a bowl she wouldnt drink from a bottle
As for how much she's drinking I'm not sure she has a large ceramic bowl as she used to throw her other bowl around when she was angry.
I'll try getting a smaller bowl and mixing something with the water too see how she feels about that. The veggie soaking is a good idea.

On the whole with her diet, she never gets 'treats' as such she was never interested in the rabbit treats. I've found a source of timothey hay im just waiting on a quote. As the moment she's eating
*oaten hay - i presume its horse hay its from a local pet supply place
*she eats various plants in the garden when out
*some veggies now and then

I'll start soaking veggies a few times a week, what veggies are you feeding Chase??

As for exercise we let her out everyday the minimal time out of her cage would be 4hours, mostly she's out all day. She has free range of the yard so she moves around quite a bit. She's lost all the excess fat now too her weight is now 2.9 (i'm happy with that i wouldnt want her to loose anymore another concern with her not eating properly), she was 3.9 and at that weight was fat.

 

[DazyDaizee]

I would worry about nutrition deficiencies with her current diet. She should be getting a variety of veggies daily and a free choice variety of grass hays (not just one type).
All rabbits should be given a constant supply of fresh hay (often needs to be offered more than once daily) and veggies (a common guideline is 2 cups per 5lbs of body weight). With a rabbit who is not eating pellets, veggies should be increased. Different veggies offer different vitamins, so you should pay close attention to th types you're feeding, and typically offering 3 different veggies daily is best.

Just by offering more veggies on a daily basis instead of a few times a week will increase her water consumption greatly and may help quite a bit with water sludge. Eating only one type of hay is not a balanced diet. I don't know how much she eats from the garden, but be aware of what it is and what it's nutritional value is. There are some poisonous plants that may grow around your yard, and there are some that may be very good for her. But you do need to make sure she's eating ENOUGH fresh greens daily and a balanced diet of them.

 

[ra7751]

Actually, I think your rabbit is getting a great diet (of course assuming proper soil conditions for good plants) and is getting a better diet than most of us feed our own rabbits....me included. I try to mimic the diet of a wild rabbit as closely as possible for my domesticsbut that is difficult sometimes. And your rabbit is getting sunlight....and that is so crucial for Vitamin D for proper calcium processes....and is something even vets don't think of. The sunlight makes up for those not eating pellets. The thing to think about with rabbit nutrition is that humans have concocted a nutritional program. Pellets were originally intended for an industry we don't mention....but pellets are made to fatten them up quickly. Our rabbits get very limited pellets and unlimited grass hay. Not many veggies either. We use pellets only to maintain body conditioning....fortified food makes us for our indoor rabbit's lack of sunlight. But our rabbits always have high quality grass hays (and some alfalfatoo). Proof of a proper rabbit diet is on display every time you see a wild rabbit. The digestive system of a wild rabbit and domestic rabbit are identical. Except for that nasty weaing with wild rabbits....we treat both wild and domestic alike. And wild rabbits are perfectly healthy eating grass, leaves and even bark.....a proper diet just as nature intended. And a lack of Vitamin D.....lack ofdirect sunlight, artificial full spectrum artificial light or by fortified feed....is a huge concern with lots of problems including perceived calcium issues as well as other metabolic problems.

Randy

 

[DazyDaizee]

I would assume that a wild rabbit is eating mainly grasses and fresh vegetation, not dried grass hays. Since water consumption is so crucial to proper digestion and assists with bladder issues, I would assume that this rabbit's bladder sludge could be alleviated or eliminated by an increase in moisture in the diet.
I don't know how much of BangBang's diet is vegetation while she's outdoors, but depending on what she's eating and how much, she may not be getting enough moisture or enough of a variety to allow for a balanced intake of vitamins and minerals.

I do agree that pellets are not essential for pet rabbit health and tend to cause more problems than they actually benefit the rabbit. But I also don't think that one type of hay and the occasional vegetable or plant outside is anywhere near a balanced diet.
Another issue is domestication. Like most domestic animals, our pet rabbits aren't generally as tough as wild rabbits. Natural selection typically leads to only the healthiest, strongest rabbits surviving. So those that do survive to breed aren't likely to have sensitive GI tracts or a proneness to bladder sludge or stones (along with other issues like malocclusion, molar spurs, etc that we see so commonly with our pets). Point being, we often have to make changes to suit our pets needs. Not to mention the shortened life span of wild animals. The effects of their diet may not ever have a chance to show, considering in many areas wild rabbits may only live 1-3 years.

 

[Amy27]

Bangbang wrote:

I'll start soaking veggies a few times a week, what veggies are you feeding Chase??

I feed Chase Endive, Cilantro, and Red Leaf 2 times a day. I also feed Dandilion probably 5 out of 7 days a week. Dandilion is a little harder to find or I would feed it everyday. I am also thinking of introducing Parsley again. I had cut it out a while ago due to it's high calcium content. But since I have since learned that the two probably are not related. I would like to start feeding it again. Dandilion has a lot more calcium then Parsley. I wouldn't worry to much about the veggies you are feeding. I wouldn't feed 3 veggies in one feeding that is over 100 mg per cup but that is more a personal choice. There are very few veggies that are over 100mg per cup, though. I think there are only like 7, butDandilion is one of them.I just try to mix it up.

If Bangbang is over turning her water dish can you get one that attaches to the cage? I would put more then one bowl in her cage so if she dumps one over hopefully she won't dump the other. A cat water fountain would hopefully be to big for her to dump. But they are a little pricey. But the fountainwhen I first got it, Chase was really interested in the water fall. I thnk she started to drink more but then it wasn't as cool and new.

If there is a morning with dew on the grass and plants, if you let her out then she will get extra water from that too. It sounds like she gets lots of time out which is a good thing. I think that is great she doesn't get treats!

It sounds like you are doing everything right. Sludge is so frustrating because it can be so hard to find a solution. I would just encourage you to keep trying things.

Is the vet planning on doing x-rays or any tests to check the status of the sludge?