Four months and a handfull they are.

[macgilli]

So, my two mini rex are now five months, and they are starting to become a handful to take care of. Only a month or two until the Spay. Depending on availability of the vet, as well as their condition.

I still love them, a lot and still try to spend a lot of time with them. With the holidays, there was a lot of upheval, however we are back on a normal routine. They handled two trips out of town like champs, although they tend not to like the car. It was a lot of handling for them, a lot of movement. However, thankfully that is done.

Now then, what's been happening;

First off, the fighting. They are starting to fight a bit, I get that with does they will be territorial, however I am hoping that they would not fight as much due to the fact that they are sisters, however they do chase and mount each other. I get that it is to be expected, however most of the time they will do it in my office when they are let out.

Weird thing, they spend most of their run time, actually all of their run time in there, with litter boxes, toys, and water. Even the litter boxes are staggered for changes to ensure that they have some continuity. I've seen them chase for a short time around in the cage. However when in my office, this will turn into a 5 minute or 10 minute chase from one side to another. Normally it is Nimue (the brown mini rex) chasing Ava (the black mini rex). However sometimes Ava is the dominant one.

With that as well, I notice that Ava has much, much different behavior now in regards to my office. Most of the time now, she hides scared under, behind things and will not even let me approach her. Getting her back into the cage in the living room is a huge challenge. She exhibits all of the signs of a scared rabbit (hiding low to the ground, ears up), hunched posture and will run at the slightest provocation. Now, this normally happens later at night. She will barely come over for treats at this point, if she does, she grabs them and runs.....Nimue is of course, always Nimue and is as loving and affectionate as ever. Last night there was a huge, noisy chase from one end to another which could be heard loudly in the next room. There was no clawing or anything, however it is something that does seem to happen about 2-4 times in a 5 hour span.

In the cage though, Ava is completely different, she comes up for pets and treats and they get along great.....

I'm wondering if anyone has an idea on what to do?
Any idea on causes?
Any idea on solutions?

I will lay down on the floor and she will look at me, sometimes come over, however she is eating normally, using the washroom, etc okay. Will also move around, however feels totally afraid. Other times they will cuddle up together like nothing has happened...its weird anyways.

In their cage, none of that other than a brief chase. Ava is much more confident in there, unless she knows that it is time to go out and that means being lifted out of the cage, however once she is in your arms she loves it.


The next topic is litter box training. I'm tired of cleaning up after them. I really am. I know that its part of the game, and I'm fine with it, to a point. It is at the point that my office is needing to be swept and vacuumed out every 2-3 days due to the fact that they are well using the entire office as a giant litter box. They tend to go everywhere.

Right now let me discuss the office layout. First off, there is NIC cubes along the exposed walls (which there are few). Under the desks with cables, as well as everything else is blocked off. In one corner is a pair of litter boxes, one of which is in a box on its side to allow them for digging, the other near their water bowl.

Under another desk, in an area with two entrances, is another litter box. All litter boxes uses either carefresh, shredded paper, or paper pulp bedding. All three are lined with Hay.

So, what has been happening. First, they have been peeing on jackets a lot, as I had a pile of laundry and some jackets that have fallen off the hooks. That one is easy to fix as I cleaned it up and dread the dry cleaning bill for it. They don't really pee anywhere else, however they defecate.....everywhere. Mostly between the two boxes. They do tend to pee in the boxes most of the time (On my laundry being the exception). However now with the jackets gone I will be keeping a closer eye on things.

My office looks like looks like this;
-------------------------------------------
| DDDDDDDDDD BBBBBB 0
| DDDDDDDDDD BBBBBBBB 0
| DD *D BB 0
| DD c c DD BB ------|
| DD DD BB 0 |
| DD 0 |
| ** DD 0 |
| w DD BB 0 |
|HH DD BB 0 |
|HH **DDDDDDRRRR BBBBB 0 |
|HH **DDDDDDRRRR BBBBB 0 |
--------------------------------------------

Legend;
* - Litter box
0 - door
D - Desk
R - Dresser
B - Bookshelf
W - Water dish.
C - Chair

Note - I do know the formatting is a bit messed, I didn't use Unicode formatting, however the room itself is 15x 15. All the walls are straight by the way. Also, there is no space between the desks at the top, and the bookshelves.

Note 2 - The furthest to the right litter box is under the desk, and it is in a corner as there is a storage locker under the desk next to it.

Most of the defecation handles around the desks, and in the middle of the floor, in a sort of circle based around the left most chair. There is also a little bit around the bookshelves.

So my question is, should I add in another litter box? I was thinking another one under desk number one, or another one near the door?

Would it be in my best interest to pick up some cage sections and use them to box them into a smaller part of the room, until their poo habits improve? Or should I hold myself and work more at it after their are spayed?

In the cage as well, there seems to be defecation performed throughout the cage, only around 50% -75% are in the two boxes in the back corners of the cage.

One of the reasons I ask, is I am going through a lot of hay, and a lot of bedding, as well as vinegar. I'm thinking that hay racks may be a good option for the litter boxes, however they keep pulling them down, or ignoring them completely. So after a few times, I just stopped using the one I have.

Also in the cage, any idea for flooring? Right now I'm using mats, and well they are tending to be chewed up. So I'm looking to replace the flooring on it, once I do the next cage expansion from 3x3x2 cubes to 4x3x2 cubes.

Anyways, any help or comments is appreciated on this one.

 

[OneTwoThree]

All right, you have a few problems.

First, you need to separate the bunnies until they are spayed + a couple weeks to a month recoup/getting rid of hormones time. Then you need to bond them properly, in a neutral area over a period of time.
This may seem like overkill, but rabbits can seriously hurt each other, and while they get along sometimes, the times that they dont are serious enough to do major damage.

Second, they are marking against each other, and thats why they are basically pooping everywhere.Nothing you can do about this besides spay them and wait for the hormones to disappear. It sucks, I know. I'm dealing with it as well.

Is there a reason you lift Ava out for play time? If you have a NIC cage, it seems like you can make a door on the ground level that she can come and go when she pleases. Thats a much better option than forced playtime, especially when its with a bun who bullies her.

I put hay in cardboard boxes turned on their side, and shove a litter box in it, and haven't had a problem with it being torn down or anything.

For flooring, linoleum is inexpensive and you can buy it to the size you need.

 

[macgilli]

Hey there.

You just confirmed what I was expecting to hear after all my reading. I figured they were marking against each other. Once they started being aggressive, I figured that I would have to eventually separate them out. I knew once they were spayed it was going to be 2 weeks to a month to keep them separate. So I've been making plans to either A- Build two smaller cages, or B - Expand to 4x3 then split it down the middle to a 2x3 (For at least a week after the spay a 1x3 so they don't run around and hurt themselves.). I'd like to do it now, however the vets want to wait until 5 months, and the only rabbit vet in a 60mile radius wants to wait until 6 to do it.

I knew there was going to be some fighting, I've been watching them and it mostly looks like chasing now, so that is a relief as I don't want either injured / killed, been through them both being sick last month, and that was not fun on either of us. Well, I think they liked the baytril, as well as all the attention.....

The NIC cage has a door on it, I don't use it much as they are rarely out in the living room / dining room. Unfortunately, the girlfriend isn't too keen on just having them have the run of my office (Ava is her rabbit) all the time, which is what I wanted / want / will be doing to do all along. We don't really use the living room all that much anyways, however that is a story for another time. Or at least I don't use it except to see the rabbits.

Essentially they both have to be carried in and out of the office so I'm thinking of relocating them into there for now, as at least that way I can just open the door for them.

I do the hay in cardboard box on side, and that is the one they never use....I just cleaned it last night and there was nothing in the box again, hell it was barely disturbed....

My plan for separating them, which will be taking place this weekend (Due to logistical concerns - Mainly cleaning / scrubbing / finishing the bunny proofing to my standards, and possibly rearranging it) is to probably put Nimue in my office, as she tends to get into less. I'm worried though about socialization at that point, as I spend most of my time in the office when I'm at home, so I'm worried that Ava will get much less socialization than Nimue. The other alternative is that Ava gets the run of the living room, I'm wondering if that would work at all?

One question on bonding them, does it work different since they are sisters and have always been together?

 

[OneTwoThree]

2x3 is really too small for a rabbit :/ Is there a way to bunny proof the living room and make it so they have their own 3x4 minimum cages? 4x3 is actually pretty small for 2 bunnies.

Bonding should be the same, they don't really feel family ties.

 

[macgilli]

Bunny proofing the living room has been in the cards for a while. There's a few obstacles to it as its open right to the dining room and kitchen. My plan was 4x4x3/4, building 2 levels upwards originally linked with ramps. I was waiting on that for a few things to work out in life first- eg, relocation (Non framed NIC sections are a lot easier to move vice a framed one) and time to build the wood frames (for the exterior, as well as the interior )to do it.

The main limitations with cage design are sadly like aircraft - "All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics. TSR-2 simply got the first three right. - As Sir Sydney Camm said.

http://www.harbourshoreapartments.ca/Floor.html#B - That's the layout of the apartment, right now the cage is next to the kitchen. The M Bedroom is my office where they have the run.

I'm thinking a few solutions, however they all get the last one wrong. My ideal would be Nimue gets my office, Ava gets the living room / dining room / kitchen (not likely as it is too slick for them) and both rooms are bunny proofed.


The awesome thing about my office is that it is -much- easier to rabbit proof (due to all the furniture) as all the cables are behind cage sections / cardboard, and are run across the tops/ backs of desks. I've left them in there for 2-3 days at a time (the politics dimension) with no real issue. On the weekends, they tend to be in for 16-20 hours as well. In some sections of the walls it is actually NIC cubes (where the litter boxes are, and where the main desk is), the rest is a bit curious, however pictures do it much better justice)

My ideal, again this is the ideal is free run completely, with the NIC and pet carrier held for when we travel home. However, again, politics. I'm thinking right now for the next 6 weeks is - Nimue - Free run of my office once I'm done with it this weekend. Ava - the 3x3 in the living room with open access once its bunny proofed. (I didn't set up the living room so I don't really know what can be done.)

I'm thinking with Nimue, she's going to get a 3x3 in my office (2 sides are already in place for the days so I can hopefully litter train her in there).

The bonding thing is going to be interesting to do. One question is, can you hold spays past 6 months? My ideal all along was to do it at 3-4-5 months so to avoid growth of hormones, however with the distinct possibility of a move in the next 2 weeks to indefinate, I may want to hold the spay for a few weeks after we move due to time, space, financial constraints, as well as to set up new living spaces for them. I don't think it should be an issue?

 

[macgilli]

Well, it looks like its going to be two cages in two separate rooms, with them each having the run of the room. I think its time to start from scratch with litter training them. Its going to be a long, fun weekend of re-arranging the entire apartment.

 

[OneTwoThree]

You can spay past 6 months. I have no advice otherwise, I haven't been able to litter train my very smart flemmish because of hormones, she was spayed 9 days ago so hopefully they'll wear off soon...

 

[macgilli]

Only 6 weeks to run on that one. I'm doing it as soon as they are ready to go. I think part of my problems were that I found it hard to really focus on one rabbit and train them, so they are only both partially trained when it comes to litter boxes and actual command training....

The territoriality of it as well also seems to be an issue. Hopefully this resolves it.