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OakRidgeRabbits

OakRidgeRabbits

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2009
Messages
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Location
, Pennsylvania, USA
This topic is never far from breeders' minds, but it has recently popped up and reminded me again.

It seems that breeders have a reputation for wanting to make money. The general public and uneducated pet owners seem to have a false understanding that breeders produce volumes of rabbits just to over-price them and make some money.

:?

From personal experience, I can say that the price I ask for show and brood rabbits and the rehoming fee I ask for pet rabbits is never high enough to severely handicap the future owner, nor is it high enough to increase my bank account! The fees go into finding responsible homes for my rabbits and helping to feed the ones I currently own.

I'm sure many of you feel the same way, so how do you deal with these situations? I try to educate those who misunderstand the show/breeding world the best I can, but there are always those who are ignorant to the workings of a show breeder and also unwilling to learn.:(

Do you bother trying to educate people about the workings of your rabbitry? Or have you given up and closed off all connections to the public? It seems that there is more and more of a push toward breeders not bothering with pet homes at all, just sending the rabbits straight to "other sources".

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts! After all, it is the breeding community who will be effective in breaking these myths. Just interested in how you do it!:)
 
If someone gets a smart mouth I just let them go. I have had people reactive horribly over $10... "EACH???? EACHHH??? TEN DOLLARS EACH? Ok, bye!" Crazy. I just let them go, they can go pay $3 for an ill rabbit if they wish to.

I sell for pets, why would I not? What is with all the breeders not selling to pet homes? How do they know breeders will do right by them? Craziness. I do not let strangers to my house for rabbits but that is another thing. A friend has strange people coming all the time for rabbits, my heart could not take that.
 
bunnybunbunb wrote:
What is with all the breeders not selling to pet homes? How do they know breeders will do right by them?
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Well, I think in some cases people just get tired of the griping and complaining and backing out on sales and misunderstandings that can come from pet sales.

I don't think it always necessarily relates to whether the new owner will do right by them, because whether a person has pet, show, or breeding rabbits, we all have different methods of care. So "right" for one person could be "wrong" for another. But as an overall blanket statement, you can usually ensure that a breeder at least has a basic knowledge of rabbit care and can properly care for the rabbit, as well as make responsible breeding decisions.

I know many people have many different reasons, but those are the main that I've heard from people.:)

Also, through all this, I don't mean to say that there are not just as many wonderful pet homes as well. It's just difficult weeding through.
 
Many breeders that I've talked to - especially if they have been doing this for a number of years (10-25 or so) have found that people will buy their rabbits as "pets" and then turn around and breed them and make up pedigrees or tell people, "They're from XYZ's lines" when really - those rabbits are not the quality that XYZ would sell other than as a pet.

Around here, I'm very nervous about placing an ad somewhere for my bunnies because I never know who will show up (and I have refused to sell them before) - but when I place them in the feed store - I know people are 99% of the time going there deliberately to buy a pet bunny. Many times people will call the feed store on a weekly basis to see if they have any bunnies in. I feel like this is less of an "impulse" buyer than others.

Of course I have offered a policy where I will take back the rabbit if need be. I've only had one rabbit returned to me so far and that was because the girl's fiancee's mom (who she was living with) said either the rabbit went - or the couple had to move out. She was crying and crying and I assured her that he would be fine here.

Sometimes I'm hesitant to sell to breeders to be honest with you - because I don't care for a lot of the breeders I've met and some of their practices.

My ideal customer is that family that would like a rabbit to show - or someone who really wants a pet rabbit to live in the house and they understand what goes into that.

As far as showing people my rabbitry - at this time - NO WAY. My rabbitry is in my sun room and I have a few grow-out cages in the dining room right now. This is where our computers are - our tv, etc. etc.

But - hopefully this summer we'll have our bunny barn built and I would like to have 2-3 old chairs out there (recliner type thing) along with play areas so that people could come and visit and meet the rabbits and spend a bit of time playing with them. I will probably do a brief interview with my buyers - I want them to understand the needs of the rabbit as far as space, food, playtime, etc because lets face it - flemish can get pretty darn big and have special needs for space, etc.

But the barn will be in my LOCKED back yard - I will have security measures for it - and we have two dogs that LOVE to bark if people come around. So I'm not too worried about that.

As far as price...if they don't like my price..that's fine. They can go elsewhere (hard to do here).
 
Their are alot of stupid people out their. If they dont like the price of my rabbits then to bad go else were.I also tell them if you dont have money to pay for one what happens If this rabbit needs to go to the vet?? All my buns go to approved homes and a contract is signed if you cant keep this rabbit he/she MUST come back too me,i dont want them to end up some where they might not be taken care of,snake food,etc.I also e-mail each person and ask for pics every couple months so i know they still have them.My mom has a rescue (mostly dogs)so i have seen what people do to animals.And if my rabbits go to a pet home they must be house rabbits.I have had people lie to me and say ya i want a house rabbit.So i just ask so are you looking for a house or outside rabbit? If they say outside i say sorry go buy from some one else.
 
bunnybunbunb wrote:
I sell for pets, why would I not? What is with all the breeders not selling to pet homes? How do they know breeders will do right by them? Craziness. I do not let strangers to my house for rabbits but that is another thing. A friend has strange people coming all the time for rabbits, my heart could not take that.
Click to expand...

I don't sell pets, because I don't want one of my rabbits to end up in a shelter. Simple as that. I feel like a breeder who fits my requirements will come back to me to take me up on my take-back offer. A pet owner may just as easily take a rabbit to the shelter when they get bored of it. Nevermind the fact that there are a lot of pet practices I don't agree with. IE, all veggie diet. I breed for show- is it so wrong to want the rabbits I sell to be shown, as well?

In regards to Julie's original post-

how do you deal with these situations?

I just try my best to educate the person. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree. In this hobby, sometimes it's for the best. If all they are going to do is argue about something they've never tried, and only read about, where you have years of experience backing your opinion, and they continue to argue... Frankly, what's the point? Let them live in ignorance. Let them continue in their thoughts, so long as it's not causing any animal any harm.

For example, there will never be a way to convince a person who has free range rabbits that they can live healthy albeit caged lives. There's no way to convince a person who insists upon feeding all veggies to their rabbit because it's 'natural' that rabbits can be healthy, and usually healthier, on an all pelleted diet. And, there is NO WAY to change the mind of a person who thinks you're rolling in the dough because of your rabbits. If a person thinks this- they'll continue to think it. But I mean honestly- I'll illustrate the way bunny money goes at my house.

-Sold a Bunny. First in 3 months. +$40

-Bought food. It will last two weeks. -$20

-Bought food again. Two more weeks. -$20

-Bought food again. Had to take a loan from mom. Need to sell rabbits.

And so on and so forth. Money is not earned in this hobby, as you know. You have to maintain a large count of does in a commercial meat producing rabbitry in order to make a profit. I don't think we have any large commercial breeders on this site- but I forget the number of rabbits you have to own and sell a year in order to make a small profit. In any case, unless you're raising a high profile breed or rabbits from a great line (which takes YEARS of work- EX: Betty Chu, THF Saynora, etc), you're not going to make any money doing this. I don't understand why this seems odd to some, and I don't understand why one would assume that it really brings in the dough. It's just incomprehensible to me.

Do you bother trying to educate people about the workings of your rabbitry?

Kids in my 4-h club 'tour' my rabbitry. I think it's cute and it teaches them a lot and overwhelms the parents. "I thought two hutches would be enough for a rabbitry!" Not so, lady. Not so. But yeah. 4-hers are allowed. No one else is. I only do the occasional post here to explain my policies, but otherwise... No. I won't bother. In the same way that a PETA person wouldn't bother trying to explain to me why wire floors are bad when I have experience that says otherwise. PEt people are prone to think the only good way to raise an animal is THEIR way, and that's the thing. Everyone has the happiest rabbits ever, but they're all happy living different ways. In an old saying, theirs more than one way to skin a cat. There's also more than one way to raise a rabbit to be happy and healthy.

Also, arguing with someone who see's breeding as an evil, treacherous thing, is like arguing with a brick wall. I tell them I only breed my does twice or three times a years, they counter back with uterine cancer. (Topic for another time, Erin. Topic for another time.) I explain that they have resting pads, they ask how I'd feel being confined to one part of my bedroom. I try to explain my stance on rabbit nutrition, I suddenly have malnourished animals. I explain why I don't agree with the HRS, they wonder how one could dislike a resue org. It's a never ending battle.

Or have you given up and closed off all connections to the public?

Public- not for me. Anyone is free to try and educate. I say... go for it. But I feel like it's wasting my time to do so, when everyone has an opinion and everyone is sticking to that opinion, no matter how silly it might be. I don't sell pets, and I don't sell to first time owners. That's my way of keeping it within our tight knit breeder's group.
 
Wow... maybe I'm just being overly sensitive (lack of sleep and all) but I'm finding myself offended. This thread seems to be about how 'pet people' discriminate against breeders? Sounds like breeders are doing just as much discrimination. Having a strict policy against pet homes, really? That's blanketing everyone with the same big brush.

My few experiences with rabbit breeders in person have been awful. That includes having known of more than one seizure for abuse/neglect on purebred, tattooed, and overall gorgeous animals that were obviously of great quality. Both times the breeder seemingly decided their animals was not worth it? I will never wrap my head around why. They just stopped caring for them. That doesn't mean I go thinking that's a good representation of breeders or that I should shun them all.

I dunno, I'm just getting a very judgmental vibe. Like, "We don't allow our rabbit's to go to pet homes because they are all nut jobs involved with PETA or don't know squat about the PROPER way to care bunnies. They will just end up dumped at a shelter." Again, maybe me just being sensitive.
 
Happi Bun wrote:
Wow... maybe I'm just being overly sensitive (lack of sleep and all) but I'm finding myself offended. This thread seems to be about how 'pet people' discriminate against breeders? Sounds like breeders are doing just as much discrimination. Having a strict policy against pet homes, really? That's blanketing everyone with the same big brush.

I think you need to understand that so far you've only heard from a small amount of breeders - not all of us. We don't all use that same big brush!

My concern with selling as "pets" is this - I live 3 miles from the Mexican border...people in my area (a farming community) look at rabbits as a food source.

This is why I have to be careful and one reason why I like the feed store because people who go there are usually going specifically for pets. Anyone who came in more than a couple of times and wasn't buying food - would set off a red flag and I know Gabby and the others wouldn't sell them one of my rabbits.

 My few experiences with rabbit breeders in person have been awful. That includes having known of more than one seizure for abuse/neglect on purebred, tattooed, and overall gorgeous animals that were obviously of great quality. Both times the breeder seemingly decided their animals was not worth it? I will never wrap my head around why. They just stopped caring for them. That doesn't mean I go thinking that's a good representation of breeders or that I should shun them all.

I appreciate your attitude on this. And I want to say - I've met many many wonderful pet owners. I love it when I can match up my rabbit with a pet owner - I just prefer to do that at shows vs. in my local area.

I dunno, I'm just getting a very judgmental vibe. Like, "We don't allow our rabbit's to go to pet homes because they are all nut jobs involved with PETA or don't know squat about the PROPER way to care bunnies. They will just end up dumped at a shelter." Again, maybe me just being sensitive.
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I see your point - but I do think maybe you're being a bit oversensitive. I don't think that is the way people are trying to talk about pet owners (at least not all of us).

Here is my experience which I think goes along with how the topic was meant to be discussed.

I have rabbits born and I feed them and nurture them and take care of them - I socialize them, etc. Let's say I have a litter of 6 - and 2 are awesome show quality animals, 2 are brood quality and 2 are pet quality.

When I go to sell them - let's say I ask $20 for the pet quality animal (I don't want it to go to a home where it will be eaten...so I start out by asking for that).

In places where there are animal auctions where people can get rabbits for $2 or whatever...they think I'm "money-hungry". Why won't I sell my rabbits for $2?

But I put time and money into my rabbits...and I want to charge enough so that I won't be selling to someone who is going to turn around and eat the rabbit - or resell it at the flea market that is just down the road.

I've been known to give away bunnies when I've been low on cage space. I've been known to sell show quality bunnies at pet prices...because as I was showing that rabbit - they made it obvious that they liked that person. I've even given away show quality rabbits to go to a pet home.

But what I put into a litter - besides food & hay - is worth something to me I frequently spend an hour per day per litter when they're young - socializing them.

If you buy a pet rabbit from me - you're getting an animal that I feel will be comfortable in your home and usually not afraid of humans, dogs or cats.

My point? I don't know - its just I sometimes hate it when people think we as breeders are greedy - because we're not. We do put money into our litters and just because we might make a lot of money off one or two in that litter...doesn't mean that we didn't put money into those pet quality rabbits too.

Now to answer your comments (vs. the original one) -

Many big name breeders have sold "pet" rabbits - only to find out down the road that person is using the rabbit for breeding and saying, "My rabbits are from X's lines".

The only problem is - that person may be using junk rabbits to breed with a high quality rabbit - and passing off those rabbits as high quality - which to someone who hasn't checked out the breed - might not know the difference.

I've seen this happen time and again and heard about horror stories.

With that said - I also know that some of them will still sell to pet homes..but it isn't stated on their website or talked about a lot...but if they find someone they trust - they will sell to them.


 
Thanks for the explanation, Peg. I do understand that it's the right of the breeder to not sell to pet homes. You shouldn't just sell to anyone, which includes others breeders. There's good and bad pet people - There's good and bad breeders. I guess I just felt most offended by the discrimination. The way it sounds is pet homes are not good enough just because they are a 'pet home' to some breeders. Shouldn't you (breeders who do that) judge the person/home itself and not base it on where that rabbit is going? I would think so.

I'm greatly involved in rabbit rescue and have awful experience with breeders, but I'm open minded enough to realize reputable ones don't make much profit and aren't in it for money. I can't say the same about people I know, they have a poor outlook on breeders. I guess that's probably where some breeders get a poor outlook on pet homes from.
 
I think this kind of situation is hard. You can stereotype pet-owners (those who will put their rabbit in their pool and think they 'love it', and will use the shower on their rabbit and think it's hilarious, when the bunny is actually in danger of dying from the shock), and you can stereotype breeders (those who keep dozens of rabbits in very small cages, when it's okay because those are the 'breeders standards' etc., and sell their rabbits to anyone and everyone just to make some money'.

The trust is, you just don't know.

For me, I try to explain my point to someone, and if they won't understand, then I just tell them I can't continue the conversation with someone so closed-minded.
For example. My "friend" (He is really not a great one though), knew that I was having an awful day. He said 'oh god don't tell me one of your rabbits died' (sensitive guy ;) ), and I said 'well I'm not gonna tell you but if it was, i'd be a LOT worse than this'. And he just wouldn't understand. He laughed his fake, forced laugh, and was ridiculous. I put the phone down on him.

Some people (I would even go as far as to call many rabbit-owners as non-rabbit people, because they have absolutely no idea that a rabbit is..well....real!) have their own godly opinion, and you WON'T be able to change it, and you will just appear 'holier-than-thou' to them (which u probs are!!).

Happi Bun- Yes I also get a little offended by discimination, but I guess sometimes you have to realise that the person doing the discriminating, has been recently offended by discrimination to them......
God now that's confusing.
I'm just saying that sometimes discriminated people discriminate due to their discrimination..........


Okay. I am making ABSOLUTELY no sense.:?:?:?



To be honest, there will ALWAYS be discrimination of....well....everything!!!
So i guess you just have to put up with it. People will have a bad opinion of breeders, because of the few breeders that are actually not great. That will stick in their minds. You will never change those kind of people's minds, because those kind of people think of their own opinion as 'right', so I'd just move past it and try and ignore it, and get on with the breeding that you know yourself is top notch :)
 
Can I be honest here? As a pet owner, I WISH rabbit breeders would charge more for their rabbits! Then maybe there'd be fewer rabbits turned over to shelters. :(

Though maybe not, given how many purebred (and expensive) dogs and cats end up in shelters too. :(

But there really does seem to be an attitude that rabbits are cheap (and therefore disposable) pets.

But I do wish there was more outreach and education available from the breeding community to the pet community. You type in "rabbit" into Google and the first site that pops up is the HRS (followed by a bunch of other rescues and shelters). It would be nice if it was the HRS and the ARBA that came up first.

Because I think both organizations have useful information and should not be exclusive of the other.

ETA: I say that because if RO did not have this breeding section, I probably would be among those ignorant pet owners that think breeders are just out to make money. So please, keep trying to teach us, because some of us are willing to learn!

JMVHO

Rue

 
I too resent the stereotype that all pet owners who don't show their rabbit provide bad homes for your purebred rabbits. To me, there is a huge difference between someone who takes time to research and contact a breeder in search of a pet quality cull from their lines, and someone who walks into a pet store and decides to buy a rabbit without doing much or any research. There are bad breeders just like there are bad pet owners. Please don't discriminate just because someone wants a companion and doesn't intend to breed or show. There's more to raising and having rabbits than showing them.
 
I honestly don't know any reputable rabbit breeder that makes enough money to cover their costs (never mind make a profit!). I don't even come close. Yes, I've sold rabbits into pet homes... and I try very, very hard to make sure they go to "good" homes, where they will be treated with respect and consideration. I will always take a rabbit back if the owner can no longer keep it. No questions, no criticism... just bring it back. (I do have a deep fear of one of my rabbits ending up being dumped or in a dog pound somewhere... and it has happened... and I drove for 3 hours to New Jersey to claim it... thank goodnesshe had a tattoo in his ear and I had a pedigree.)

I've seen my fair share of people that neglected their rabbits... even ones bought for a lot of money. And a person (breeder) can get jaded after a while. You give a person all the information and education you possibly can... you make yourself available for questions and consultation (4 am phone calls even!), you refer them tovets (even go with them!!) and do everything you can for the sake of the rabbit... and people still fail to do right by the rabbit... or chose to ignore what you're saying and take advice from "experts" that don't know the rabbits like you do. When the rabbit dies, who gets blamed? The "lousy breeder"...

On the other hand, I take greatpride in success stories. Rabbits that have lived with their families for many years, bringing them much joy and love... so I always have to hope that I am a good judge of human nature and character and can place the right rabbit with the right people.

I do not let most people in my barn. I do not meet people when I am home alone. I have a few security measures around my rabbits to try and preventany "problems".
I am wary of people that ask weird questions, question my motives or don't seem to have the best interests of the rabbit at heart. I will refuse to sell a rabbit to someone I'm not comfortable with. (Been there, done that!) And I try very hard toshare what I know and find out what I don't... for the sake of the rabbits, (and not get dissuaded or jaded in the process).


 
bengal77 wrote:
To me, there is a huge difference between someone who takes time to research and contact a breeder in search of a pet quality cull from their lines, and someone who walks into a pet store and decides to buy a rabbit without doing much or any research.
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That's one of the major differences between the pet community and the reputable breeding community. While it may be invisible to you since you're not dealing with it directly, you'd be surprised at the volumes of people who contact breeders knowing nothing about rabbits and having done little research -or- the people who do have rabbits, do know a thing or two, but like to e-mail just to tell us how we're doing everything wrong.

For example the RO forum member who made a point to PM me recently and tell me how asking a rehoming fee for my pet quality rabbits "didn't make sense". This is obviously a person involved in the rabbit community who still doesn't understand.

Not having the intention to breed or show doesn't make anyone a bad rabbit owner, nor was that what anyone was implying. This conversation was centered around the unknowledgeable people who are not pleasant to deal with, and there happen to be a lot more than you'd imagine. Many responsible pet owners choose to adopt rather than buy, so they are not necessarily the bulk of people we deal with.:)


 
I can definately understand how it is hard for breeders, when there are so many bad and irresponsible breeders out there, and they are 'lumped' into the same category.
It's like there are bad pet owners, and good pet owners. The good pet owners will probably have had someone in their life try and stereotype them into a certain category, but you just have to ignore those type of people, because they aren' worth it.

There is difference between those people trying to help, and those just trying to cause trouble, but I think most who bother to email people etc. are just trying to cause trouble.
How can anyone on a site know really how you look after your rabbits, OakRidgeRabbits? It's stupid.

I personally could never breed, because I would get too attached to all of them. That is also why i am not sure I could ever foster for a long period of time.
My pets are like my babies, really, and I can't actually ever imagine giving them up, for whatever reason- it's just too utterly painful to think about.

But I respect those who do breed (obviously those good, reputable breeders who breed for the right purposes), and have yet a lot to learn about breeding and showing rabbits, but it is something that I am quite interested in.

:)
 
Sadly, I can only find a few breeders that I would happily get rabbits from in my area. As with any breeding of any animal, there will be good and bad breeders, and unfortantely, the bad breeders tend to stick in the minds of people more than the good breeders. On the flip side, there is also good and bad rabbit owners. I want to get my next rabbits from a breeder and I will choose the breeder wisely. I expect the breeder to view me as any other person coming to view their rabbits, not as a pet owner who couldn't care where I get my animals from. I care very deeply where my animals come from and I research into breeders and question breeders about their setup and their breeding, as I expect them to question me on how I plan to keep the rabbits.
 
I myself try to help educate people on what i do and why i do it! And if the person is to close minded and wont even give me a chance to explain to them how my rabbitry works and the point behind it(which is bettering the breed) then i just let it go and they can act stupid if they wont to. I am not trying to be mean but most breeders who breed for show do not keep 10 rabbits to a cage like some most meat breeders! A lot of people such as people from PETA think that our rabbits have bad living conditions! But every single one of my rabbits has its own big cage and is looked after everyday and is in the best of health! What people need to get in their heads is without breeders producing cute little rabbits such as holland lops and lion heads there would not be any here!! So i guess my point behind all of this is try to educate people but if they wont listen there is no point in trying to push on them. Just do what you do because you love it!
 
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