Could I have caused Gus's kidney failure?

[funnybunnymummy]

I'm not sure exactly how I came to the conclusion, but a month or two after Gus was diagnosed wih kidney failure, I began to suspect that radish tops (which I fed him almost daily) may have been affecting his kidneys. Even though he was on the Benazepril, he was still dribbling urine from time to time, but since I've completely removed them from his diet, he's been dribble free since. Then, a few weeks back, I bought some radishes and my son mistakenly fed him the entire bunch of tops! After that, while he wasn't dribbling on the floor again, his water intake went way up again and he seemed to be feeling poorly (he was fairly quiet for a few days after and extra grumpy). So I'm fairly confident that radish tops, if they are not the cause of his kidney failure, certainly do not help!

Then today, I was reading an article on feeding veggies to rabbits on the HRS website and they are now saying that greens high in oxalates (such as radish tops and parsley) can lead to kidney failure over time.

Certainly, I'm going to be cutting both from his diet from this point on (plus never feeding the other high oxalate foods like spinach, mustard greens, beet tops, etc.).

But I can't help wondering if I inadvertantly caused his kidney failure by feeding him these two greens?

:tears2:

Here's the article if you're interested in reading it: http://www.rabbit.org/care/veggies.html

Rue

 

[I_heart_Fraggles]

Oh no Rue I had no idea Gus was sick. I don't have an answer for your question other then if it was the greens then you still should not blame yourself. It seems that "safe greens" are changing everyday and its so hard to keep up. I have been pretty careful with spinach but I feed parsley all the time and the girls love it. This is the first I have heard of it being unsafe.

 

[naturestee]

I can't remember how this all happened. Does he have/has he had kidney stones? That's the primary problem with oxalates- they can form kidney stones.

Gus could just be really sensitive to high-calcium or high-oxalate plants. It's certainly not your fault, though. Heck, my rabbits practically live off of radish leaves in spring because it's the first thing in our garden that comes up. Garden veggies taste way better than store-bought veggies so they pig out on them. I always feed a variety of greens, including high-calcium and high-oxalate ones like kale and collard greens. And of all the health problems I've dealt with among my critters, only one (foster) rabbit had calcium issues. The rabbits that have been here for years and years don't have any calcium issues. Not even Loki, and he's not exactly aging gracefully (bone marrow cancer, arthritic, cataracts, molar spurs, previous fibroma tumor). Heck, I'm even feeding alfalfa pellets right now because my unemployment ran out while I'm finishing up my degree, and it hasn't affected anyone (yet).

There is really divided evidence out there about how much the calcium and oxalates in FRESH vegetables actually affect rabbits. Unfortunately, my favorite article disappeared off the net when the website was changed. But the gist of it is that all those studies listing mineral content in foods are based off of dry weight. They dehydrate the food first, and then they analyze it for mineral content. This means that those nutritional percentages for veggies are not taking into account all of the water in them. That water helps to flush those same potentially problematic minerals out of the kidneys.

I do agree that you'll need to cut out radish tops and the greens with the highest oxalate in them since he is showing some obvious sensitivity now. It could be that he is sensitive BECAUSE he is in kidney failure, not that he has kidney failure because of the high-oxalate veggies. It's impossible to know. But I'd personally leave in a little bit of the medium-oxalate veggies like parsley, because the rest of the nutrition they have is so good for him.

 

[Watermelons]

Dont blame yourself rue.
Did you vet talk about flushing the kidneys? I know that was always an option to try and reverse kidney issues in cats and dogs and was an option for Tiki but he was too far gone.
I know I caused Tiki's kidney failure, fed him the alfalfa based pellets his entire life, didn't know there was a difference, never actually looked at the ingredients.
I wouldnt lay Gus's kidneys down to just the greens there are so many things that can contribute to issues and we dont even know 90% of them.

 

[naturestee]

I'm also going to go on the record and say that calcium in the diet does not necessarily cause kidney stones. Sometimes it does, but it's quite common for rabbits with stones who are put on a very low-calcium diet to still get more stones. Where is it coming from? Their bones! Something is set wrong with the rabbit's calcium metabolism so that the blood calcium level is kept much higher than it should be, resulting in kidney/bladder stones and sometimes calcium deposits elsewhere in the body. If there isn't as much calcium in the food as the body thinks it needs, it strips it from the bones.

I saw this in Luna, Myheart's rabbit that I had fostered. She was put on a very limited, low-calcium diet and got sub-q fluids every other day to flush her kidneys, but more kidney stones still grew.

So don't blame yourself!

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Thanks, guys. I don't know if we have a group hug smiley, so these guys will have to do: :hug2:

Naturestee, no kidney stones. He had an x-ray and it showed no signs of any stones, either in his bladder or his kidneys. His symptoms were excessive water consumption (we're talking 3-4 C a day!) and loss of bladder control (he dribbled everywhere he went). The vet told me a common cause of kidney failure is contact with antifreeze, though I know in the time we've had Gus, he's never come in contact with it! I've sometimes wondered if his grazing in the backyard might have caused it (he has eaten buttercup and variegated ivy in small amounts), but I couldn't find evidence in my Googling that either can cause kidney failure. And really, who knows what his life was like before we got him.

Anyway, the more I think about it, the more I think that he's sensitive to the veggies due to his kidney failure, not vice versa. He was getting maybe 3-4 radish tops per day and about 6-8 parsley sprigs. Not huge, huge amounts, especially for his weight (7 1/2 - 8 lbs). It just really threw me for a loop that the HRS was now saying not to feed parsley every day (every other day being okay) and not to feed more than one high-oxalate veggie per day. (They really switched up the list! Apparently kale is now safe for daily consumption! Figure that one out! )

I'll try not to beat myself up anymore. I just wish I knew exactly what it was that has caused the kidney failure so I'd stop guessing!

Rue

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Incidentally, I should mention, the Benazepril seems to be working really well for him. He was doing the full on dead bunny flop and roll here a few minutes ago, so I know he's not suffering in anyway.

Rue

 

[mrbunny]

Yes, I must agree with everyone is saying. You could not have known. There are many factors at play here. Just like with humans, it's genetics. Some rabbits may be more sensitive to others to certain greens.

As mentioned already, studies often use dehydrated vegetables rather than fresh greens. Fresh greens often contain less calcium and oxalates. You may want to try the "trial and error method" of greens with Gus. It's a little bit time-consuming, but you can record and organize what works for Gus' diet and what doesn't. (ie. Stop all greens and pellets for approx. a week. Then, slowly re-introduce pellets and one green by one green. If you notice gas/stomach upset/etc., record that and feed that specific green less often.)

 

[Nummy]

I worried about causing Nummy's kidney and bladder stone too, since I fed him some high calcium greens like kale, mint, spinich, dandelion leaf, and who knows what else! I was being hard on myself about this happening to him and it kinda was eating at me. But in the end I was only just trying to do what I thought was right at the time, and Nummy was happy with that. Now all I can do is just keep him in high spirits, take away his high calcium veggies and hope for the best. I hope Gus gets better, I know it is hard to watch this happen to your special little guy. When the vet told me that Nummy would likely die from his stones I stayed calm, once I got in the car I just had to cry because I can't stand the thought for losing my little guy. Anyway I got this site about calcium problems in rabbits, maybe it might help with knowing what not to feed our rabbits, at least not in high quantities.
http://www.houserabbit.co.uk/resources/content/info-sheets/calcium.htm

I will pray for Gus and you ray:

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Yeah, I cried when I found out Gus had kidney failure too. I'd pictured him growing to be an old bunny that finally died in his sleep. It's hard adjusting to the idea that they might not be with us for that long.

Fortunately he has responded well to the medication the vet prescribed and the vet seemed to think he could live for several more years with the kidney failure, so I'm hoping that will be. In the meantime, Gus has become a very spoiled bunny rabbit--as if he wasn't spoiled enough before.

Rue