COD for Lion Heads

[ZRabbits]

The more I read and research, the more I become interested in finding out what's really going on.

There is a breeder in PA who per the National Lion Head Association is close to getting her third COD. Now that is an accomplishment.

So why did the PARBA lock her out from the Washington show this Saturday? And not just her, but all lion head breeders who show?

Now if that's not enough to stir your curiosity, please check your pulse.

Speaking to someone on another forum and several Lion Head breeders, I'm find out that 4-H is now saying No to lion heads. Their excuse is that Lion Heads are not recognized by ARBA so why show. Where is the open catagory for 4-H and the children who love and raise this breed?

Like I said on the other forum, glad that this attitude wasn't around when the first wild rabbit was introduced to a Polish. And how it started the creation of all the different breeds.

I would like to hear people's views on this. Not just Lion Head breeders, but all breeders who show.

I'm not hear to start trouble. I just want to know. I want to get involved but I need to know what walls and ceilings that need to broken through.

K

 

[HappyFarmBunnies]

I don't know enough about Lionheads to really comment, but I was shocked when I learned that they in fact were NOT approved by the ARBA, especially when so many people raise them and there are so many varieties. It intrigues me as well.

 

[woahlookitsme]

What I have heard about those rabbits is that there are two main breed influences with totally different looks. The breed club hasn't been able to decide on which one they want to go with as a recognized breed. I was interested in them when I first started my rabbit hobby but with all the fuss about them it totally turned me off.

 

[HappyFarmBunnies]

Sarah are you referring to the single v. double maned thing?

 

[ZRabbits]

Single vs Double. Those who like single say Double is Ugly. Those that like Double think Single isn't enough.

And it's a shame that this infighting is getting so bad, that no one is watching the door close on this breed by the ARBA and 4-H. Sorry kiddies, the adults are too worried about their personal views so you get to not show or have the pet because it's easier that way. Can't make waves.

I've been a rabble rouser before. I think both single and double can be shown. Different version of the English Continential Rabbit

So single can be the English Version

and Double can be the Americn Version.

Gee how hard is that and the breed can be recognized.

So it looks like the open shows don't want to use the standards handed to them in open shows? Too many variables?

Maybe that PA person, who's 3rdCOD is hanging, will try it againafterhe/she goes through the Judging process (wants to be a ARBA judge and also shows Mini Satins) Or is this a way to stop that as well? Frustrated, here become a Judge.

Divide and conquer. Or frustrate the hell out of anyone. Definitely sounds like Camden County New Jersey Politics. And yes Lake, know about Chicago, Il politics as well. My husband and I like to know there is someone out there who is getting the screws all for the sake of "I know what's best for you.". We see the pattern very clearly as we are surrounded by Dirty Politics. And all thought our water was dirty? lol

Oh well, time to join the Lion Head Associationcrowd and push this breed. Both single (english) and double (american.)



K

 

[ZRabbits]

Single vs Double. Those who like single say Double is Ugly. Those that like Double think Single isn't enough.

And it's a shame that this infighting is getting so bad, that no one is watching the door close on this breed by the ARBA and 4-H. Sorry kiddies, the adults are too worried about their personal views so you get to not show or have the pet because it's easier that way. Can't make waves.

I've been a rabble rouser before. I think both single and double can be shown. Different version of the English Continential Rabbit

So single can be the English Version

and Double can be the Americn Version.

Gee how hard is that and the breed can be recognized.

So it looks like the open shows don't want to use the standards handed to them in open shows? Too many variables?

Maybe that PA person, who's 3rdCOD is hanging, will try it againafterhe/she goes through the Judging process (wants to be a ARBA judge and also shows Mini Satins) Or is this a way to stop that as well? Frustrated, here become a Judge.

Divide and conquer. Or frustrate the hell out of anyone. Definitely sounds like Camden County New Jersey Politics. And yes Lake, know about Chicago, Il politics as well. My husband and I like to know there is someone out there who is getting the screws all for the sake of "I know what's best for you.". We see the pattern very clearly as we are surrounded by Dirty Politics. And all thought our water was dirty? lol

Oh well, time to join the Lion Head Associationcrowd and push this breed. Both single (english) and double (american.)



K

 

[Blaze_Amita]

I don't know what all the fuss is about them either. I picked up a pair of them, a single mane doe and a double mane buck because the buck was cute and the doe was in my favorite color(sable point). Doe is not a good momma and buck is moving to a rabbitry that can handle them. I wouldn't have ever shown them because of the problems that have been arising with them. They were recognized at one point if I remember correctly but then they tossed them out because of those problems. But people still lvoe their bunnies, some folks like that, me personally I Love my dutch more.

 

[Korr_and_Sophie]

I am not sure, but I don't think it would be possible to have 2 versions of one breed. As far as I know, all the animals within a breed have the same body type and confirmation with varieties being colour related. If there is a different physical feature, then it would have to be a different breed. For example, Holland lops and American Fuzzy Lops look pretty similar expect that fuzzy lops are fuzzy. They are 2 separate breeds. Having single maned and double maned lionheads just doesn't work, it has to be one or the other. I have also heard that ARBA won't recognize new breeds that are too similar to existing breeds. So if Lionheads were to become recognized, they would not then recognize a Lion Lop if the only different is the ears (up versus lopped).

I don't know about the show politics though. I know that Lionheads can't compete for Best in Show, but they can still be shown and only do Best of Breed. I think it may be up to the show committee if they will be shown and the decision could be based on time, numbers and judges. I am not sure if shows will have to allow lionheads until they are fully recognized.

4-H seems to be another matter entirely. It seems that each district does things differently, so what works in one area might not in another. If a club is focused on showing, then using recognized breeds makes sense since the member could also show in ARBA shows if they want to. However, 4-H should be about learning as well and that can be done with any breed. Club that focus on other things like rabbit hoping should allow any breed, purebred or mixed as it is the performance of the rabbit that counts more than looks.

 

[Watermelons]

STUPID QUESTION:
What on earth does COD stand for?
My generation here and their stupid video games... i see COD I think Call of Duty.... Which clearly is not the case

 

[Korr_and_Sophie]

Watermelons wrote:

STUPID QUESTION:
What on earth does COD stand for?
My generation here and their stupid video games... i see COD I think Call of Duty.... Which clearly is not the case

Certificate Of Development.

 

[ZRabbits]

Korr_and_Sophie wrote:

I am not sure, but I don't think it would be possible to have 2 versions of one breed. As far as I know, all the animals within a breed have the same body type and confirmation with varieties being colour related. If there is a different physical feature, then it would have to be a different breed. For example, Holland lops and American Fuzzy Lops look pretty similar expect that fuzzy lops are fuzzy. They are 2 separate breeds. Having single maned and double maned lionheads just doesn't work, it has to be one or the other. I have also heard that ARBA won't recognize new breeds that are too similar to existing breeds. So if Lionheads were to become recognized, they would not then recognize a Lion Lop if the only different is the ears (up versus lopped).

I don't know about the show politics though. I know that Lionheads can't compete for Best in Show, but they can still be shown and only do Best of Breed. I think it may be up to the show committee if they will be shown and the decision could be based on time, numbers and judges. I am not sure if shows will have to allow lionheads until they are fully recognized.

4-H seems to be another matter entirely. It seems that each district does things differently, so what works in one area might not in another. If a club is focused on showing, then using recognized breeds makes sense since the member could also show in ARBA shows if they want to. However, 4-H should be about learning as well and that can be done with any breed. Club that focus on other things like rabbit hoping should allow any breed, purebred or mixed as it is the performance of the rabbit that counts more than looks.

Holland Lops and American Fuzzy Lops are basically the same rabbit, but they are called different breeds. Because one is fuzzy and one isn't.

Understand the logic about the single and double mane, being one or the other. And can now understand the politics of bunnies because of the last sentence of your first paragraph.

Holland Lops are already recognzied. American Fuzzy Lops are already recognized. Mini Lops are already recognized, English Lops are and the beat goes on. So now if the Lion Head is recognized, the ARBA won't recognize the Lion Head Lop that all the Lop people are starting to form now. Yes, I've seen many happy breeders playing with this one.

Regarding 4-H, they will go with what the ARBA standards are. It's a shame but it's fact from what I can see. They don't care what new breeds come in because most of the 4-H are interested in NZ, Netherlands, and the big catagory here Holland Lops.

So basically in what I'm reading from you and also from other posts, it's OK to open up the breedline to accept Holland Lops/Lion Heads but not an actual Lion Head.

Gee, that's how works. And the start of denying Lion Heads the right to show in open has started. Gee, can't show until recognized. But on boy, those Holland Lop/LionHeads, will surely show up at the shows. A Mixed Breed. Oh that's right, they don't recognize the Lion Head. But how much you want bet they recognize the Holland lop/Lion Head mix.

People, especially those who are fighting over Single or Double Mane, think about what I just wrote.

The answer is pretty simple to me. But then again, I'd relied on logic all my life.

K

 

[ZRabbits]

Blaze_Amita wrote:

I don't know what all the fuss is about them either. I picked up a pair of them, a single mane doe and a double mane buck because the buck was cute and the doe was in my favorite color(sable point). Doe is not a good momma and buck is moving to a rabbitry that can handle them. I wouldn't have ever shown them because of the problems that have been arising with them. They were recognized at one point if I remember correctly but then they tossed them out because of those problems. But people still lvoe their bunnies, some folks like that, me personally I Love my dutch more.

The fuss is about People who love this breed, just like you love your Dutches. And the Lion Head is being ignored or pushed back. That's what the fuss is about.

Just wanted to be treated fairly. Nothing special, but fairly. Just like the Dutch.

K

 

[funnybunnymummy]

The lionhead is a recognized breed in England, right? Just start showing there. Problem solved.

Just being cheeky.

In all seriousness, though, why doesn't the ARBA simply adopt the same breed standards as England has and tell the breeders that's what it's got to be? After all, it's not like it's a breed that's not recognized anywhere. There's a standard already set in another country.

Rue

 

[Korr_and_Sophie]

funnybunnymummy wrote:

The lionhead is a recognized breed in England, right? Just start showing there. Problem solved.

Just being cheeky.

In all seriousness, though, why doesn't the ARBA simply adopt the same breed standards as England has and tell the breeders that's what it's got to be? After all, it's not like it's a breed that's not recognized anywhere. There's a standard already set in another country.

Rue

The standard in England is different that what is being proposed in the US. The rabbits currently being bred do not fit the British standard. It is not so much having a standard, but having rabbits that can fit that standard and breeders who are breeding to that standard.
I don't think that the ARBA is the group that sets the standards. The breed clubs generally make decisions on if a new colour will be presented or not. ARBA just works to make sure that the colour or a new breed has enough support and can be bred to the standard. If a breed club doesn't want a new colour, then ARBA won't accept that colour.

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Okay, that makes sense then why they aren't being recognized. If there's too much infighting within the breed club(s) over what the standard should be, then I guess there's never going to be a standard.

Too bad. Lionheads have been around long enough that they really should be a recognized breed.

Rue

 

[Korr_and_Sophie]

I really don't know the politics of it all. But there is someone who holds the Certificate of Development and is presenting them to be recognized. It takes a while to get that done, at least 3 years. I think the issue this last time (the presentations are done at the ARBA national convention in Oct/Nov), was that the wool on the flank was too long. The standard has been revised so hopefully that will make it easier next time. I think this is the 2nd or 3rd person to have a COD on them. I guess it just takes a long time to get a new breed recognized.

I would like to see them get recognized. They are a nice breed and pretty unique looking. Having them recognized would hopefully get breeders on the same page with what they are breeding and a more uniform look.

 

[ZRabbits]

Korr_and_Sophie wrote:

I really don't know the politics of it all. But there is someone who holds the Certificate of Development and is presenting them to be recognized. It takes a while to get that done, at least 3 years. I think the issue this last time (the presentations are done at the ARBA national convention in Oct/Nov), was that the wool on the flank was too long. The standard has been revised so hopefully that will make it easier next time. I think this is the 2nd or 3rd person to have a COD on them. I guess it just takes a long time to get a new breed recognized.

I would like to see them get recognized. They are a nice breed and pretty unique looking. Having them recognized would hopefully get breeders on the same page with what they are breeding and a more uniform look.

Thank you Korr_and_Sophie. You hit the nail on the head. That's all anyone can ask. Hope that's all there is to the issue.

I heard through a very good reliable source that the ARBA has considered the change on the skirt. That's the whole fight is the flank wool. Some don't like it, but others think it makes the Lion Head unique and special just like the mane, which is why the breed is the breed.

Well, I'm not going to go to England to show my bunnies, but I will be doing it here in the "Colonies". I'm already setting a course to be a Member of this National Lion Head Group. And if necessary will sign up for a Committee. I think they need some new blood. Yes it takes time for a new breed, and it does get frustrating and some do give up due to this frustration. This happens in anything. It's up to the new people to pick up the torch and carry it to the COD.

I have time, I have passion, I love the Lion Head. So why not go for it.

Thanks to all for your replies and input. All carry great weight.

K

 

[CCWelch]

The original COD holder dropped her COD and the breed is starting all over from what I understand of it. When you get a COD you have to have 3 successful showings and the successful showings have to include both adults and Jrs and all have to pass without any faults as regulated by the original COD holder. I believe that it also has to have a set number of people showing them at the ARBA Convention to get passed. So that said, it will be 3 years at least before Lion Heads are accepted.
The show at PA is well within their rights to no allow a non accepted breed to be shown. Lion Heads have basically exploded on to the scene but as of right now there is no a true standard by which to judge them. The new COD holder has changed things that the original COD holder had for expectations of the breed. The latest edition of Domestic Rabbits kind of explains it. I believe the explanation of COD 's is in the Standard of Perfection front section.

 

[ZRabbits]

CCWelch wrote:

The original COD holder dropped her COD and the breed is starting all over from what I understand of it. When you get a COD you have to have 3 successful showings and the successful showings have to include both adults and Jrs and all have to pass without any faults as regulated by the original COD holder. I believe that it also has to have a set number of people showing them at the ARBA Convention to get passed. So that said, it will be 3 years at least before Lion Heads are accepted.
The show at PA is well within their rights to no allow a non accepted breed to be shown. Lion Heads have basically exploded on to the scene but as of right now there is no a true standard by which to judge them. The new COD holder has changed things that the original COD holder had for expectations of the breed. The latest edition of Domestic Rabbits kind of explains it. I believe the explanation of COD 's is in the Standard of Perfection front section.

Thanks so much CCWelsh for this information. This is GREAT news. I'll be ready with my MATURE adult Lion Head and Jrs from this MATURE adult Lion Head in three years.

I have to get the edition you suggested to read.

What you just wrote explains the reasoning of what is going on. I truly appreciate you looking into this. It's so hard to get a straight answer and then you are still in doubt.

But yours is a breath of fresh air.

Now, Lion Head Owners, calm down, brush them out and lets' get it together.

I've already sent my application to join the NALRC, and I'm in the position to get a doe to start my breeding program. And I will become a Member in good standing with the ARBA.

Again thank you CCWelsh. You have help me set my course with this news.

K

 

[wendymac]

Karen, I think one of the major problems is getting consistent results. And it has to be something distinctive and unique to a breed to be considered. I have a feeling that you can't have a standard for those with the double mane and those without...it has to be either/or. And it has to be something that can be reproduced consistently.

I really was shocked to learn they weren't an approved breed, because everywhere you look you see lionheads for sale or giveaway. :-(