Chase - UPDATED 5/22/10

[Amy27]

I can not even believe I am posting this. I swear this poor rabbit can't go through anymore. Chase went back today to get her stitches removed. The vet and I decided they would show me how to do Sub Q fluids and they would take a urine sample today to see what the mineral content was.

The sub q fluids didn't go as well as planned. Chase pulled off the needle twice and that was with the vets help but I will get through that. The vet assured me it won't hurt her and the needle won't break to just stick her again or try later.

What is most upsetting is they couldn't get a urine sample. Chase's urine was to thick with sludge. It has been 10 days since the stone was removed how is that possible. I am just so upset.

I am going to go to another vet on monday and unless she has another idea her current vet and I talked about sticking a catheter up there and flushing the bladder so hopefully another stone won't form. I am really just blown away.

The chances of Chase being able to live with this is looking slimmer and slimmer. How much do I put her through. When do I say enough is enough. I can't think about losing my baby but she is so unhappy with all this stuff going on.

I did get a copy of Chase's lab results which I am going to post hoping someone on here will have an idea.

The stone analysis from October is 100% Calcium Carbonate.

The urine culture showed no organsisms seen and no aerobic growth.

CBC: WBC 6.1 RBC 4.9 HGB 11.1 HCT 31 MCV 65 MCH 22.8 Comment says Polychromasia +1

Differential: Heterophil Count 2623, Lymphocytes 3416, Monocytes 61, Eosinophils 0, Basophils 0, Platelet Estimate Adequate Platelet Count 293, Comment blood smear reviewed by technologist.

Comp, Mammalian Chemistries: SGOT (AST) 22 Comment: The chemistry results were calculated from a times two dilution which may falsely decrease the calcium. Electrolytes may also be inaccurate because of sample dilution. SGPT (ALT) 40, Total Bilirubin 0.0 verified by repeat analysis, Alkaline Phosphatase 28, Total Protein 5.8, Albumin 4.0, Cholesterol 14, BUN 22, Creatine 1.0, Phosphorus 7.0, Calcium 12.6, Glucose 326, Sodium 160, Potassium 3.8, Chloride 112, CPK 1094, Globulin 1.8.

Histopath Report: Source/History: Spayed female rabbit. Age not indicated. Second bladder stone in three months. Stone analysis 100 percent calcium carbonate. Incisional biopsy of bladder wall submitted, all tissues processed.

Description: The specimen is serially sectioned and examined in its entirety and four step levels are examined. The transitional mucosa is diffusely moderately hyperplastic and somewhat spongiotic appearing. There are areas of erosion and probablt ulceration of the mucosa present with underlying stronal hemorrhage. The submucosal stroma is also irregularly expanded by edematous areas with moderate patchy mixed inflammation observed. Lymphocytes and plasma cells predominate with fewer heterophils. Scattered hemosiderophages are also observed. No infectious agents are seen with H&E stain.

Microscopic findings: urinary bladder: Chronic, hyperplastic, erosive and midly hemorrhagic cystitis with submucosal edema.

Comments: Rabbits may have calculi within the bladder, urethra, kidney, or urter. Dietray management is an important part of treating and preventing calculi of the urinary system of rabbits. The alkaline PH of rabbit urine as well as the generally high concentration of calcium in the urine increases the chances of precipitation and calculi formation. Decreasing dietary calcium is recommended and this is done by diets of grass hay and green vegetables with reducing pellets. Vitamin and mineral supplementation should be discountinued. Also, many rabbits with urinary calculi are overweight and increased exercise and decreased total caloric intake are also recommended. The changes with the bladder wall in this case are not specific but typical of those occuring secondary to the preserve of urinary calculi. There was no evidence of neoplasia.

Ok I know that was really long but I wanted to give all the test results. Thanks everyone for being so helpful

 

[Maureen Las]

Thanks for posting the labs !!

I really feel bad for you and Chase.

I would think that Randy would be our prime interpretor of these findings but I (I don't really know!!!!) don't believe that this type of build-up is being caused by diet at this point.
The forum will be down tonight so it may be impossible to get Randy's take on this tonight so please try to be patient.

I do agree that if you cannot find a solution to this that it would be difficult to put Chase through a lot more invasive procedures.

Just take it a day at a time for now and try to do the best that you can..that's what you are doing already!! You are a great bunny mom..
and I'll ray:for you and Chase

In the meantime I'll try to take a better look at those results ........

 

[tonyshuman]

Without going and doing some research on bladder tissue structure, the most I can glean from these results is that the vet thinks it's dietary, like angieluv said. It's not cancer, and there is no infection.
Randy may know more. :?

 

[BethM]

Oh no! I was hoping for good news about Chase and now I'm sad she's still not feeling well.

Give her some extra nose rubs from me.
And some hugs for you, too.
:hug:

 

[NorthernAutumn]

Well, I'm pleased that there are some testing results for Randy and others to look at... I feel so sad for the pain Chase (and you) are coping with:hug:.

I am curious about the line about the urine being of particularly alkaline pH... I wonder if pH adjustment of the urine might be the key?... But how?

 

[NorthernAutumn]

This is what transpired on the temporary forum...

BethM:
Can someone give me a link to the yahoo group? I neglected to go over there before the move, and now I can't find a link to it.

I've been worried about Amy27 and her bunny Chase, and was hoping she might be over there. Or, has anyone had contact with her, and if so, how are she and Chase doing?

Thanks

ElfMommy:

Here's the link:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rabbits/
I haven't read through the posts yet, though.



BethM:

Thanks for the link.

Didn't find Amy27 or Chase, though.



NorthernAutumn:

The last I read, Amy had given us a rundown of the lab results. As I remember,Chase's bladder was sludgy AGAIN! The results suggested that it was still a dietary issue, but a high degree of alkalinity in the urine was cited as a possible influence...

Hopefully someone will be able to read those results and help her out as soon as the forum comes back...

Autumn



Amy27:

OMG Beth you are so sweet. Chase is doing ok. Though she is very unhappy with me and her sub q fluids. I am not getting the fluids in her that she needs to get. I get some in her and she flips out and then for an hour after she runs around like crazy, itching and trying to lick the spot I gave the fluids. Then hides from me for about 6 hours. I have sent out a ton of emails today to see if I can get a vet tech to come to my house to admin the fluids. I also tried the vet tech program at a local school to see if a student will come.

I have been watching Chase closely and she is just not drinking. I have slept next to her cage and when I hear the water bottle I look up to see who is drinking and it is never Chase. I am going to try and syrigne feed her some water and juice today. I need to get her to drink and when I put the juice in her bowl she won't touch it. I am hoping if I get her to like the taste she will drink it out of her bowl. I have cranberry and berry juice but may look at the store for other flavors. Does anyone know if there is a flavor that most buns love?

I really appreciate you asking about me Beth. You seriously doesn't know how much that means. I have no support from family and friends. Even my dad who is in school for vet tech. If it wasn't for the support of this board I would probably have given up. Again thank you so much. It truly made my day.


Amy27:

NorthernAutumn you posted the same time I did. The vet that read Chase's result does not know anything about her diet. I think that vet was going off the most common reason. I wish my vet could have sent more information on Chase's condition so that vet would have known Chase hasn't received high calcium things in years and the last three months it has been cut down even more. She didn't even send Chase's age.

I am really starting to believe it is her water intake. I think she may urinate 1-2 times a day. I don't think she is going enough to expel the calcium.


Tomorow is her appt with the really good exotic vet so I am crossing my fingers. But if she won't drink water except for sub q and syringe fluids I don't know what the vet can do.


NorthernAutumn:

I know we're going to lose this conversation when we finish moving...

Sorry for the results misinterpretation. Your vet really should have been far more communicative...

I wonder if she would drink more out of bottle (dunno, but maybe?)
You could get a blended cranberry juice with another flavour. I know that I personally find cranberry juice hard on my tum, and prefer it cut with peach juice if possible..

I'm so excited to hear you're going to the good exotic vet!!!! From what I've understood, the one you're with is not really up to the job... I have my fingers crossed for you and Chase tomorrow!

PS: Slatey says his ears are crossed for Chase too

Autumn

Last edited on Sun Feb 1st, 2009 04:32 pm by NorthernAutumn


BethM:

If I remember correctly, you soak Chase's greens so they are nice and wet before she gets them? So she's getting some water that way. Even some sub-q fluids are helpful, even if it's not as much as you might want her to get. (I know it's frustrating, though, to go through all that.)

I have heard a lot of people on here using diluted apple juice to try to get their bunny to drink more. Or a flavored Pedialyte? (Though that has a lot of sugar, so too much of that wouldn't be good for Chase.)

Autumn posted before I could get mine written, the cranberry blended with peach sounds good, too. Is grape juice ok for bunnies? Maybe a white grape/peach blend?
My Amelia doesn't like tart things, so maybe Chase is like that, too.

Good luck at the new vet tomorrow. I'll be keeping my fingers (and ears and paws) crossed for you.



NorthernAutumn:

Well, they've got grape-flavoured pedialyte that goes down a treat!
Grapes themselves are very high in sugar, but are also very juicy.
Perhaps it is worth putting more juicy fruits into her?

OOOH!
Brain fart!
Pineapple is juicy, and also has a more acidic pH. If her urine is overly alkaline, I bet the acids in pineapple may bring it down a bit (while getting more water into her!)

Autumn


BethM:

Pineapple! Of course!
If she will eat it, that would be wonderful. To keep the more acidic properties and good enzymes, use fresh.

Nick loves that if it's whizzed in the food processor just a bit, so it's more like a mush.

To cut down sugar from the fruit juice a bit, maybe dilute with water? So it's more a flavoring agent than full-on juice.

Last edited on Sun Feb 1st, 2009 04:56 pm by BethM



NorthernAutumn:

Seriously Beth, I can't believe none of us following this thread thought of it before....
DUH!
Yeah.... canned is way too sugary, but it might sucker her into trying it the first time if she won't go for the fresh. Blending up the core would also provide some roughage...


PS: I"m cutting and copying as we go, so I'll repost all of this once the forum comes back.

Last edited on Sun Feb 1st, 2009 04:59 pm by NorthernAutumn


Amy27:
Chase's greens are soak so you are right she is getting water that way. I am diluting the juice so it is about 1/4 juice 3/4 water. I tried the bottle, grabbed one while I was out and she doesn't seem to know what to do with it.

I am so excited because it seems like you guys came up with a great idea but I am not sure I understand lol sorry I don't know much about this stuff.

Chase's blood test alkaline was 28 and normal is 4-20 so it was high. Does it make a difference if it is high in the blood or the urine? I am just trying to make sure I understand but if I give something more acidic like pineapple it will make the alkaline go down?

Thanks guys for the great idea. I will get some pineapple. I have never used fresh pinapple before so when you say ground the core up to you don't mean the rough outside but the middle correct? Should I add water to that also or just when I am giving juice? Does it matter if I give her whole pieces or if I ground it up? Do you know how much is ok to give?

I just got back from the store but now I may have to make another trip out lol. I have tried apples and banana's before and Chase wouldn't eat it but she might like pineapple. Ok heading back out lol gotta try this and see if she likes it.

Thanks for copying this to transfer to RO. I was trying to write it all down but that is easier lol.

You both have been so much help through all of this. Thank you.


BethM:

Fresh Pineapple directions:
When you choose your pineapple, get one that smells good, and it should be ripe.

Cut off the leafy top, and the bottom. Then you can stand it on end and remove the outside, just slice down. (I usually do 4 sides, like a square, then the corners.) You'll want to take off enough so the "eyes" are mostly gone, these have little black seeds in them, if there are some still on there, just cut a little more off.

Then I will cut it into quarters, from the top down. If I'm preparing it for myself, I'll just cut out the core from the center, you should be able to see it. It's edible, but really fibrous. Then cut into chunks.

Just be careful when you're cutting the pineapple! If you put the leftover into an airtight container, it will last for a few days. Also, beware of the stuff they put out on store salad bars. It's usually treated with lemon juice or straight citric acid to keep it from turning brown. I can eat a lot of fresh-cut pineapple, but 2 pieces from the salad bar burns my tongue.

For Nick, I left the core in, and used maybe a third or a quarter of the pineapple wedge. I tossed it into the food processor and whizzed it until it was pretty liquidy, then gave it to him in a dish. If you have a good blender, you could use that instead, just put smaller pieces in.

If you don't have a food processor or blender, you could just cut into small pieces, and maybe mix some in with Chase's salad. I gave Nick the ground up pineapple because he was reluctant to take the chunk, but once he tried it he liked it.

I'm not sure how much would be best to give, I just gave Nick a couple tablespoons at a time. I wouldn't give a whole lot, since there is sugar in it. You could dilute with water to stretch it, if Chase likes the flavor she might drink pineapple flavored water.

Last edited on Sun Feb 1st, 2009 06:22 pm by BethM


BethM:

I used to have a recipe for a drink that used the core of the pineapple, put it into a pitcher with a bit of water, and some mint leaves. I believe there was also sugar and maybe a splash of lemon juice, too, but you could just use the core, and/or some of the pineapple fruit. Then leave it in the fridge overnight. It flavors the water, and is light and refreshing.
Easier than blending and mixing.

(The recipe also calls for the outside part that gets cut off, but I hesitate to do that because I don't know what sort of pesticides are used on those.)



Amy27:
Thanks got it all cut up. I gave Chase a few really bite size pieces. So far she just turned her back on me but right now she is upset and me and will only take something really good from me. I will see if she eats them. She seems to have something againts bowls or dishes. I can't get her to eat or drink out of them. Or the water bottles. I have tried putting juices and as someone on RO suggested even purifing cilantro her fav and she won't touch it in a dish. If she doesn't eat the pieces I will try my blender and see if she will take it that way. When I feed her her greens she gets full pieces of lettuce and cilantro so I don't know if she would eat the pineapple if it was in there.

I swear I have learned so much all around trying to take care of Chase. How to cut up whole pineapples. When cranberries are in season and where to buy them when they aren't. lol


NorthernAutumn:

Was just going to mention that Chase may not take to all these new-fangled foods right now, as she is under some degree of stress from her vet visits.
She may not go for it immediately, but I bet that she might change her mind a few weeks from now...

ETA: Worst case scenario, you could syringe feed. But that will make her pretty mad I'm assuming that she simply doesn't FEEL thirsty, for whatever reason...

Last edited on Sun Feb 1st, 2009 06:42 pm by NorthernAutumn



Naturestee:

My buns won't eat pineapple. I can't eat it fresh either, it makes my mouth hurt. Too acidic. You could try giving her the juice straight or dilute it with water and see if she'll take that.

IMO, try a bunch of different juices or Pedialyte flavors mixed with water to see if it will get her to drink more. Flavored Pedialyte is actually pretty low in sugar and what's in there is simple sugar, the easier to digest stuff. My buns like the apple flavor. Always keep a bowl of plain water available in case she doesn't like the flavor you've added.

All I can think of re: the sludge is that her metabolism is set to high calcium excretion. From my readings, sometimes that just happens and it has nothing to do with the diet. Hopefully increasing her fluids with flavored water and sub-q fluids will help keep her bladder flushed. I do wonder why she itches at the spot where the fluids were given. That doesn't sound normal. Dora really didn't seem to care about her sub-q injection sites despite being a fussy baby bunny.

It shouldn't be too much longer before RO is back up. I hope Randy can take a look at those test results and see if he can come up with ideas for treatment/causes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And That's Your Weekend Update!!!!

 

[ra7751]

Well....I think you might be looking in the wrong place. If Chase were here....I would be looking for the reason of that 326 Glucose level. I think that might be a little...well maybe a lot.....too high. Did that not raise a flag at your vet? Caught my attention above all else. I will need some time to look over the labs. I don't know that I would be using the various juices mentioned...nor would I be using Pedialyte.I don't think she needs electrolytes right now....she just needs fluids going thru.In this case I would be using lots of Sodium Chloride sub-q. Since it seems you might be having some difficulty with the fluids......use a 21g butterfly catheter with luer lock. Administer fluids via large syringe (I use 60ml) to "push" fluids in quicker. It is also possible to administer multiple syringes (fluids or meds) simply by removing one syringe off the catheter and twisting on another.....multiple treatments on one single stick. I would also try to acidify the urine....ascorbic acid is the best since it is water soluble. It's Vitamin C. You can offer small slices of oranges or offer the supplements....guinea pigs require supplemental Vit C so tasty tabs are available. As always, in moderation. Might help with a few rounds of Metacam in case there is any inflammation in the bladder. Change your water to a low mineral content bottled water...not distilled water but low mineral content. And I would really like to seeseveral EC titers over a period of several weeks....and there is a reason for that. And one more thing....look into the pupils of her eyes...do you see anything in there?

Randy

 

[tonyshuman]

Is glucose level in rabbits similar to that in humans? ie I know that 326 blood glucose for a person is VERY high--is it similarly dangerous for bunnies?

 

[ra7751]

Normal glucose level in a rabbit is 78-155. Now with rabbits, you have to allow some "wiggle" room just for the stress levels encountered with travel and the different sights and sounds in the clinic when you are dealing with labs. But I would havea hard time justifying a 326.

I think this is going to be one of those issues that will come in many pieces and will require extensive veterinay intervention in determining the root cause of this problem. Everything about Chase needs to be examined starting with overall physical condition and diet.

Randy

 

[Amy27]

Randy thanks for all your help. The vet I saw today said she doesn't think pushing fluids as in getting Chase to drink more will push out the sludge, there is to much so I am giving up on the juices for now. I was hoping the juices would encourage Chase to drink water since she really doesn't drink much. She upped the sub q fluids. I will now give them every day, 150ml for 4 days. I will also be giving Metacam for 4 days to help with the inflammation in the bladder.Chase will go back to the vet on Friday and they will do another ultrasound and see how the sludge is doing.

The vet believes that Chase will require sub q for the rest of her life. Hopefully at some point we can scale back but she will always require some. The vet didn't think it had anything to do with Chase's diet.

The first vet said the Glucose levels were high due to stress from surgery. I will mention it to the new vet I saw today when I see her on Friday. I will also ask about acidifying the urine.

I just don't think I can give the fluids. I have tried and by myself I can't hold Chase still long enough. I found a vet tech that is going to come to my home and help me starting tomorrow. She seems very nice and is only going to charge me $10 a day. I am very happy about that.

When buying bottled water will it say low mineral instead of distilled? I am looking at the water I have been using and it says drinking water, sodium free. It has nurtition facts and next to everything is 0%. Is that good?

I asked for EC titers from my last vet and she didn't do it. When I asked about the results she stated she has seen rabbits with EC before and she is sure Chase doesn't have that. I will ask the new vet to test.

I tried to look in Chase's pupils but she is really mad right now and just turns her back to me. Once she calms down from being back from the vet I will try again.

Thanks for the help Randy. I wrote the things down I need to ask the vet about on Friday.

It was really hard to hear that Chase will have to deal with this the rest of her life. I was really hoping the vet would have an answer. Where we could solve the problem and move on. But it doesn't sound like that is the Chase. I bawled when she told me. I asked her what Chase's life would be like this. She is so upset everyday because of all of it. The vet said that would be something we would have to wait and see. When I asked her if Chase could ever go off the Sub Q she said there was a very small chance but that she doubted. She stated with Chase's history of stones she may need something more to flush out her bladder. It was nice to hear you say that I need to give the sub q and metacam and that my vet did that. I really hope she is a good vet.

If the sludge has not gone down by Friday I believe they will flush the bladder for her.

The also wanted me to geta urine sample everyday. I don't see that happening. I mean the rabbit barely goes to the bathroom anyway and you want me to try and suck it up in a syringe. She wants to see how the content of the urine changes over the week. I am going to try but I really don't see that happening.

The vet seemed really knowledgable and really tried to help me. She actually tried to do the sub q fluids there all by herself to help give me ideas on doing it by myself. But then she said she wasn't sure she could do it by herself because Chase kept moving. She also gave me bigger needles then the first vet and told me to squeeze the bag.

Thanks everyone for all your help and caring. This has been so hard and draining. I am really glad to have this vet tech's help. Atleast I won't be doing it alone now.

 

[Maureen Las]

You are really doing a lot to help him so give yourself credit.

I am sorry that you got such depressing news regarding his future; did she (vet)seem to think his problems could be genetic ????

I also think that it is fantastic that you are getting help with the subq "s also

maybe the tech could also help you get urine sample .

keep us posted Amy

 

[ra7751]

Umm...well, I agree they can't drink enough water to flush the renal system. Since this is such an extreme case....ask your vet to do the fluids IV or IO. I would use Sodium Chloride instead of LRS.

Do not use a drip infusion.....push it in. Ask your vet to use the tools I mentioned earlier....I can push hundreds of mls of fluids in a very short time usinga large syringe and a butterfly catheter.

As far as EC.....very few vets have actually seen a full blown case of EC. I can just about guarantee that every domestic rabbit in the western hemisphere will titer positive for EC. You are looking for antibody levels. The thing with EC is the crystals that come from shedding spores. They damage the kidneys and reduce their efficiency. If the kidneys don't work efficiently, they won't remove all the waste from the blood...the part that goes to the bladdergets thick and concentrated and gets deposited as sludge. I think I asked about her eyes. In some cases, the spores that damage the kidneys will also appear in the pupil of the eye....looks like snow. My very first EC case ( and the namesake of our rescue) had EC when we didn't know what EC was. She had urinary issues ongoing....and early on, she started getting snow in her eyes. Many presentations of EC are incorrectly diagnosed as UTI. No flaming intended to your vet(s) but they just don't see this EC often and the information they have available is usually outdated. EC is devastating on the renal system. And it seems that kidney problems and glucose levels might go hand in hand. I would really like a urnalysis on a virgin urine sample. The only way to do that is a cystocentesis. Would be very interesting if that could happen.

Keep us posted.

Randy

 

[Amy27]

Thanks angieluv. I am really trying. I never would have imagined when I got this bunny that eats my house and everything else that I would love her so much.

The vet didn't really say whether she thought it was genetic or not. She actually didn't really say what she thought it was from. She did say she didn't think it had anything to do with diet. We mostly discussed what to do about the current sludge and how to stop it from coming back. She was a great vet. I really trust her and that helps. She really went out of her way to try and make it as easy as possible for me to give the sub q fluids by myself. My other vet just had a vet tech show me. It could have been the fact that when they took Chase out of the room to get the ultrasound I bawled. I couldn't hold it in any longer. I tried not to cry in front of the vet but when she left I lost it. I can tell she has a good heart.

Getting help with the sub q's has taken a huge worry off from me. This girl will never know what she has done for me and Chase. I think the same thing about you guys here. When I told her that Chase would have to get these for the rest of her life she said well then I guess we will become good friends.

The thing with the urine sample is they want me to get her to go on a hard surface and then suck it up in a syringe. But when she only goes 1-2 times a day and I suppose to lock her in the bathroom all day everyday (they want a sample from everyday). They tried to push on her bladder to get some urine out and tried with a needle and couldn't get any. I may see if that vet tech knows how to suppress the bladder and maybe I can get her to try that on a hard surface and see if we can get anything. They want it to evaluate the USG.

This reminded me of something else the vet said. She says when there is an incision in the bladder calcium will clinge to it so the more surgery Chase has the more likely she will be to get stones.

Randy I was also thinking about the glucose. The vet was talking about other options, non that she wants to do now but if nothing works we could try. She says it is unproven but some have adovcated the use of diruetics. She stated that would be a last resort type thing though as it would cause other problems and Chase probably couldn't take it for long. Anyway she then said there isn't much to make a rabbit drink more and mentioned they couldn't get diabetes. I don't know much about diabetes and glucose but what would that mean if the glucose is high and rabbits can't get diabetes. What would be the cause?

Also the sludge is diffusely distributed thoughout the bladder and not precipitation of sludge where it would be all at the bottom so she said that was good.

 

[ra7751]

Diuretics (Lasix) can be your friend. The thing is...lots has to go in. And it would be a "Hail Mary" treatment. Ask about the cystocentesis....it will get a virgin sample and not one off a counter. And there have been some documented cases of "diabetes" in a rabbit. It might be one of those things that it isn't technically diabetes....but close enough. I have found several alleged instances but I haven't found any clinical info on it. And then consider that a few years ago it was thought that degus can't be diabetic. We now know they can....and I have one that tested at 380 glucose.

 

[tonyshuman]

First of all, HUGE hugs to you, Chase, and Little Bunny. I can't imagine how stressful and scary this is for you.

Here are the videos on bladder expression that have been going around lately:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq-5YErYcvA&NR=1[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ekrHLc6xiI&mode=related&search=[/ame]

A way to get pure urine would be to use a litterbox with a grate in it and no litter--just the bare plastic underneath. It would smell, but would be a way to get it.

With really expensive and difficult treatments like this, it might be worth getting a second opinion or going to a specialist like at the local vet school. Just an idea, especially if the vet is not receptive to the idea of doing an EC titer, which I agree is pretty important right now. Your vet does sound pretty knowledgeable, but it really can't hurt, especially if they want you to pay for daily urinalysises (sp?).

It is definitely not desirable to be having lots of bladder surgeries, whether or not calcium clings to the incision.

High glucose would indeed be indicative of diabetes or (I would think) improper liver function. I don't know whether or not it has been documented in rabbits before, but theoretically they could get it because they do have a pancreas and things could go wrong with it. The liver also plays a role in controlling glucose in the blood, so maybe high glucose levels could mean liver problems.

Also, could nursery water be considered low-mineral drinking water?

 

[BethM]

Oh, Amy, I am sorry for the sad news you got today. You and Chase have been in my thoughts all day.

I am glad you found a better vet, and that's great about the vet tech coming to help you with the fluids. Maybe Chase will get used to the process, as time goes on, and calm down a little. (I hope.)
(One of the women in my HRS group has a bunny who needs SQ every day, too, though she's never told me why.)

Big hugs for you, and give some nose rubs to Chase and Little Bunny for me.

 

[Amy27]

Randy by cystocentesis is that where they try to go in the bladder to extract urine with a needle? If it is they tried on Thursday and I was told the urine was to thick. Today they tried and they said there wasn't enough urine in the bladder and it was to small. They are planning to try again Friday. I believe they said with diuretics it can cause a lot of bad side effects. She stated usually they use that as a last resort. I am think I should have written this down I maybe getting it confused with something else though.

tonyshuman Chase did see a new vet today that only sees exotics. She also teaches exotics at a university and has written a ton of books and articles. I know it is getting confusing when I say vet to know what one I am talking about lol. The previous vet was the one that wouldn't do the ec titer. I am going to ask the new vet when I see her again on friday. I went to this new vet to get a second opinion and because she has so much more education and experience then my old vet. Hope that made sense.

That is really funny you mention liver because her liver test came back high according to the vet. I am not sure exactly what one it is out of the ones I posted but she did say it was 8 points high. I wonder if those two are related. Wrote that down in my notebook to mention to the vet.

yeah I am really wondering about the low mineral water. I am not sure if nursery water would but I have seen it in the stores so if anyone knows I coudl get that.

The vet is hoping Chase will get use to the sub q's. She also said the skin and sub q will get use to having fluid in there and will make room easier and it shouldn't be as uncomfortable for Chase. She said right now it is stretching and that could make it more uncomfortable. She sat with me and watched Chase after they gave the sub q's and he did his usual freak out and she said he was mad, not in pain. But I question whether she tells me that to make me feel better.

Thanks to the people who mentioned Little Bunny. She has kind of been pushed to the side. Plus she still misses Chase. I really need to work on getting them back together because I think they would both do better with that comfort. I also think Chase drank more when she was around the Little Bunny. Chase is mad at me all the time and doesn't want comfort from me and so I think that will help. mmm that maybe another thing the vet tech could help me with.

If you are interested or have the time this is the new vets credentials and experience/background. Do you think it is a good background? Her name is Barbara Oglesbee, DVM, Diplomate ABVP. This website tells more about her background. http://www.cvrec.org/avianexotics.htm

This is one of the books she wrote http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0781793998.html

 

[NorthernAutumn]

Hey Amy!
Glad to read that you've got a true bunny savvy vet this time (or at least someone interested in trying hard for you guys)
Hope Chase feels a bit better soon, poor bun...
Sounds like things are moving in the right direction....

Autumn

 

[Amy27]

Thanks NorthernAutumn. I also wanted to thank you for bringing to my attention that Chase may not want all these new foods and drinks because she is under so much stress. I was just really going crazy trying every new thing I could think of and you saying that really made me stop and think. I was so busying thinking about what else could I try. I need to give her a break of trying to make her eat this and drink that. She has had a rough enough time and it has only been 2 weeks since she had surgery. I appreciate you saying that or I might not have realized. I am going to back off, it is easier now knowing she will get some fluids from the sub q. Though I did notice tonight a few small pieces of pineapple were missing. So I think she did eat a few.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

ray: Come on baby girl!