Breeders...what would you do?

[TinysMom]

I have a situation here and I'm trying to decide what to do about something.

First of all, a bit about me. Whenever I find that a rabbit carries something like malocclusion or the Max Factor gene or whatever - I pull it from my herd along with any offspring. If anyone has purchased any offspring for breeding - I would notify them.

I've only had to pull two rabbits for malocclusion and they were sold as pets as they were carriers only. I still have their offspring that had problems here and trim their teeth regularly.

That is my policy because I don't want to sell anything that would hurt another breeders' herd. To me, there's nothing worse than buying a rabbit or two to breed and then find out that there are problems genetically with them and you can't use them.

Well - I'm getting ready to retire Miss Bea. I wanted her to have one more litter and I was going to take her to a very "typey" tort buck so that I would get lots of harlequins even if they would be tort and black like her - and not orange and black.

Last night I was checking my email and a breeder who bought from me last year said that he had to put her son down and two of the son's offspring...for malocclusion. He stated that he thought it came from the son's father (a sort of well known lionhead rabbit in the early years but I am not going to name him here). The buck he had to put down was about 18 months old and he said that when he thought back on it - he thought he probably had the malocclusion showing for about 4 months because he'd had a weepy eye problem.

I've been doing some correspondence with this breeder and he's read over 70 books on rabbit breeding (I have no idea how he found so much)and rabbit health. He's a really nice guy - and I've always found him to be ethical...so I really don't doubt him.

Now - the rabbit he suspects is the culprit - is in Miss Bea's pedigree- but as the grandsire. He is also the sire of the rabbit he had to put down. The doe that threw the litter with maloccluded teeth - is if I understand - the daughter of the buck he had to put down. To me - this says that she could have gotten the gene from the dad...

Now - I went out and checked all of my harlequins - and none of them(and some are about 3 months younger than this buck) have bad teeth.Miss Bea does not have bad teeth and I've never ever heard of her offspring other than this one buck from her having bad teeth...which the young man suspects came from the father and not Miss Bea. The sire is a direct import from England...and it was known that many imports carried teeth issues.

My question:

a. Would you pull Miss Bea from the breeding line or would you breed her one last time? To my knowledge - this is the only rabbit that ever had malocclusion - but if he truly has it...then that would mean she carries it - right?

b. Should I breed my other bucks and does from her? Or should I just pet them out?

This decision is pretty important. I've been told by many that Miss Bea is about one fo the nicest patterned harlequin lionheads in the US.....I wanted to preserve her pattern and her lines. But I don't want to do it at the expense of passing on the maloclussion gene.

I've quietly made a few inquiries about the sire - if anyone else had issues from his offspring....but I really wonder now about her carrying it.

My option is - if I were to breed her again - to just pet out the babies and not use them for breeding..but the whole purpose was to keep her line from dying out.

Ethics is VERY important to me - and I suspect I may wind up not breeding her again...

Peg

 

[Starlight Rabbitry]

Sorry, Peg. I have no idea.Sounds definitely genetic. Hopefully Pam comes by... The only type of Maloclussion I had to deal with is not genetic. My rabbit jumped off one of the show tables on her face... teeth didn't line up right after that. I gave her some stuff to chew on but to no avail. She became a brood doe after that.

Good luck and let me know what happens.

Sharon

 

[clarzoo]

Gee, Peg, that's a tough situation.



Is the buck you want to breed Miss Bea to related to her in any way?



I know that malocclusion is not as simple as heterozygote/homozygote or carrier/non-carrier. It definitely does have a genetic component, but as far as I understand it's not cut and dry like color genetics can be.A lot of times in the dwarf breeds malocclusion is a result of two lines not crossing well together- and bad teeth being a result. I even know someone with one line of fuzzy lops that are high strung. The rabbits aren't born with bad teeth - but they are such little tweakers that they pull on the wire all day and end up with bad teeth. I wouldn't want that in my line either, though.



It sounds like this other breeder was doing some fairly tight linebreeding, which can quickly amplify bad traits just as much as the good ones.



So, I don't have any great things to suggest, but if it were my rabbit I would be tempted to breed her to a buck out of a line that I have never had problems with teeth before and watch the offspring carefully.I am not saying I 100% would- but it would be something I'd have to think over a lot and do some careful pedigree analyzing- and of course I'd be prepared to keep whatever she had if need be.



Good luck with this situation. :bunny5

 

[Wee Wabbits]

If you've never had a problem with her babies then I would breed her. It's a tough call but if I understand this correctly none of her desendants have bad teeth right? Just one ancestor and a cousin? If that is correct, and she's had lots of babies with no teeth problems then I would breed her. But that is just me....I wish you the best and hope that you don't have to hard a time making a decision. Good luck.

 

[RAL Rabbitry]

I would be suspicious of enviromental causes because of the bucks age.

I bought a bred doe once and her kits teeth were never right going from

trapped to full maloclusions. I would think that they would have shown up

before he was 18 months old. How old were his sons when he put them

down? Was the buck a wire biter and taught his sons to do it.

Were the sons teeth bad or did he just panic because the sire's were?

It seems odd to me that none of Miss Bea's offspring that you have kept

have bad teeth.

I would breed the doe to an outcross buck.

Roger

 

[TinysMom]

I want to thank everyone for their input and I'd love to hear more/ discuss more.

I don't know how old the kits were - and I haven't asked. I think the breeder and I may sit and talk for a bit at Nationals.

By the way - the breeder isn't mad at me or accusing me of anything.They're simply trying to track down where the gene could have come from and decide if they have to stop doing their lines.

The hardest part is - while I have three harlequins here - they are the"end of the line" so to speak unless I breed them or Miss Bea again.

The guy got back to me today - and I was wrong on one thing (I'd been looking at his website). He said that the mother of the kits was the doe he got from me - so basically - both the parents were either from Miss Bea OR her offspring.

Now Miss Bea has had 3 or 4 litters for me (usually 6-8 in a litter)and I have some of the does. None of them have thrown bad teeth.

What I need to decide is...do I just stop breeding harlequins(something I had considered anyway) ... do I start with harlequins from another breeder and redevelop my lines...or do I work with what I have and do some out crossing....

I tend to be extremely picky and am more likely to "throw out the baby with the bathwater" by pulling something from my herd too easily than to hold on and try to work with it - mainly because I do not want to accidentally cause problems in another person's herd. In this case -almost a year of breeding is down the tubes for this breeder as his foundation stock carries the gene.

My other option that I JUST thought of....is that I could breed harlequins and ONLY sell them as pets and not sell them to other breeders. That would keep the color and pattern going...but only in pet homes.

Somedays its a blast to be a breeder - other days it is tough. I have several breeders telling me "don't give up and retire Miss Bea - let her have one more litter" while part of me says, "Is it worth it to risk it?".

By the way - the rabbit he suspects is NOT so much Miss Bea but the buck she was bred to....as he is in every pedigree (including Miss Bea's).

I bred her back to her grandfather or great=grandfather - I'd have to look it up.

Peg

 

[hellsmistress]

Peg,

From all you've said i get the impression that this is more likely caused by wire pulling or something similar. I've found from experience that if the parents carry it then it's going to show up in more than just 1 kit. Although it does sound like there has been some problems with the buck on Miss Bea's pedigreeit does not seem to be a problem within your line. I think the best option would be to give Miss Bea a final breeding and just watch the kits closely. But as i said above I don't think you have a problem or it would have shown up in more kits.

-Chantel

 

[gentle giants]

I agree with Hellsmistress, Peg. As many kits as Miss Bea has had, and that you have kept some of her kits and not had a problem, I would say the risk, is any, is very minimal.

 

[bluebird]

I would breed her too something related.that way you know for sure if its genetic.the max factor gene is considered highly desirable as lines that carry it show well.bluebird