Bonding woes - Please help!

[lyndym]

I have a blog going for my buns, but thought I'd reach out more publicly for help in bonding them. I am losing hope that my two will ever be able to live together, so any help will be appreciated!

For those of you that don't know, Rory joined Doc and I back in February. This was after Doc had been a bachelor for a few months following the passing of my girl Dora, so he's been successfully bonded in the past. D&D were great together and never had an issue with their bond once they were both fixed. Over the 7 months that Rory has been with us, we've gone from complete hostility to short small pen dates to longer neutral territory dates to extended large pen time and back to immediate hostility. Everything started progressing smoothly FINALLY over the summer, with them snuggling and grooming and everything, but now we're back to square one with Rory going in for a hostile nip right away. Just a week ago they were spending hours together, and today we just sat on the couch with me petting them and she'll go in for the random attack without Doc provoking her at all. I've tried everything - car rides and washing machine stressing, I let all dating over the past few months progress slowly and carefully and take them back a step if an incident occurs.. I even moved this summer, so their territory was completely reset! (Just a coincidence, I didn't move just to help bonding!)

Please chime in with any advice, and please feel free to ask me for more details! This is definitely just the cliff notes version of everything we've gone through together! I keep getting my hopes up for them, but they always take a dozen steps backwards in an instant, and I feel really discouraged. Thanks in advance!

 

[Blue eyes]

Is Rory spayed?

 

[lyndym]

Yes, both rabbits are fixed. Other details - Doc is just about 3 years old, and Rory is probably around 1 1/2. Both buns are rescue rabbits, so I don't have exact ages on them. Like I said before, Doc had a mate for a couple of years, but from what the rescue had on Rory, I don't think she's been part of a pair before. She was rescued with two kits of her own, though, so prior to being fixed, she had at least one litter.

 

[FreezeNkody]

I may have not done it the "conventional way" but it worked for me. I did 2 things. I put them in a travel carrier and took them for a 1/2 hour car ride. And I also took them both of them and put them in the bathtub ( no water of course) it was neutral territory and they both now are super bonded and love each other very much also are you sure one isn't asserting dominance? My female will sometimes nip him or mount him just to let him know she's in charge.


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[JBun]

It seems your bonding situation is on the difficulty scale of trollers. Have you read his blog at the end when he finally had a breakthrough and they finally bonded? It almost seemed like part of the problem was ending the bonding dates. In the date the rabbits would start to make progress and work out things, then the date would end and they would seem to lose the progress they made, or it would get even worse between them. In the end when he just kept them together and supervised for a long time, they were able to finally get over their difficulties and sort things out between each other. So maybe this approach would work. Maybe the constant splitting them up at the end of dates is what is causing the issues to continue.

 

[Blue eyes]

Jenny may be on to something with the splitting up of the bunnies causing regress. The bonding method shown at this site describes more of an immersion method to bonding. I did this with my current pair.
The site also has videos that I find quite helpful in showing bonding attempts of different types -- easy, difficult, and 'just not going to happen.'

 

[lyndym]

Thanks everyone!

FreezeNkody - I did try a similar stressing-then-neutral-territory tactic a few times over the past several months. It did help in the beginning and allowed their dates to progress longer, but the problem I'm having now is once they're together for 2-3 hours, a fight will break out. I did notice them sorting out dominance issues - at first Rory had a huge problem with Doc exploring, for example, when they were first on dates in my bathroom. She would lunge at him and growl whenever he would try and hop around the room. After a few days, they switched mindsets, and he didn't want her to do any exploring! I wouldn't separate them after small altercations such as this, just make sure the nipping didn't progress. They actually got as far as Rory allowing Doc to mount her, so I was hopeful and thinking that the dominance issue was almost sorted out.

Jenny and Blue eyes - My trouble seems to be that Doc and Rory seem to max out around 2-3 hours and suddenly let a fight erupt. Sometimes I'll witness some nipping leading up to it, which I stop, but not by separating them - usually I'll pull them away from each other, if they don't stop on their own after my yell or clapping, and then bring them back together for some forced cuddling and petting, like how I used to conduct our short dates in the beginning. I only separate them when it's clear they can no longer handle being in the same area together, but I always make them end on a good note by petting them together and waiting for one to groom the other at least a little. Blue eyes, do you mean the "immersion" method like the "wearing down" method? I was considering it, but heard from some sources it doesn't always create the best bond. Though, everybun is different, and I am running out of options! I will give those video a watch now! Jenny, I will have a look at Troller's blog as well!

 

[Blue eyes]

Thanks everyone!

Blue eyes, do you mean the "immersion" method like the "wearing down" method?

Oh, I've never heard of "wearing down" and am not sure if that is the same thing or not. I use the term 'immersion' for lack of better term. I don't even think that term (either term) is used on that site I linked.

"Wearing down" method is not something I'm familiar with -- at least not by that terminology.

 

[lyndym]

So I just watched the video on the site Blue eyes recommended, the "Bella and Major Difficult Match." I am wondering whether or not they were separated at nights and other times the woman was unable to supervise. She didn't mention it, but it looked like the pen they shared had a door that could easily half it into two separate areas. From how she filmed the video, it seemed as if she just stuck Major into Bella's pen and let them figure it out! I have been trying so hard to keep everything neutral for my buns and only allowed them to share brand new things - toys, litter box, hidey boxes. Another thing I noticed from the video - Bella would act with hostility towards Major, and he would not fight back with equal aggression, he would usually retreat after trying to get a nip in. My two are sometimes like that, but mainly they are both equally invested in a fight and charge and circle and pull fur like mad if I don't intervene fast enough. This worries me. But on the other hand, they have had several positive encounters!

Another tidbit - After several prolonged dates in the ex-pen with only shared food and no shared toys/litter box, I decided to get a new litter box and some new hidey things. I started with the litter box, which was okay.. Doc didn't seem to want Rory in at the same time as him, but he'd just give a little nip, she'd back off, and then she'd have her turn once he left. The hidey boxes on the other hand caused a disaster. Doc didn't want Rory near them at all, so he'd nip at her and she'd nip back and they'd fight over the issue. I haven't tried letting them share things like that since. I feel like I can't even try a prolonged immersion period because of these past occurrences!

 

[Azerane]

Can you put in an extra hidey box? I know you want them to be able to share things, but if they both have the same access to two boxes, both of them can mark it and use it as their own, but they're still sharing it.

I'd also recommend switching items that they've had for a long time, they have to learn to be ok with using things with each others scent on them.

 

[Blue eyes]

My understanding of the match-ups on the CottonTails website is that the bunnies are never separated. They are monitored. I used this method when I was attempting a trio. I knew it was chancey with a trio. I did end up with my current bonded pair out of it though. (The trio was my girl Sapphire and two brothers who had been housed separately). Having two males with one female, so I learned, was not the best idea.
Anyway, when I used this method, I made sure to have several separate areas within the enclosure just like Cotton Tails does. I also had 2 litter boxes. I did mine inside though, and the first night, I slept beside them. After that, they were doing well enough that I just had to keep an ear out for them. I never left them out of ear-shot (either my ear or someone else's in the house).
I did take some videos along the way if they would be helpful. If nothing else, they show how I set up an inside enclosure with 'areas'.
Here's the first day (after a couple hours):
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtux1DYdXGs[/ame]

Here's at almost 3 weeks and them getting along:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA2d-y8ghUk[/ame]

And here they are when the two boys have started to not get along. I also have another video on that page that is locked that shows the final 'disagreement.' I can post that here too if you like.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gFp6WkJbTY[/ame]

 

[lyndym]

Can you put in an extra hidey box? I know you want them to be able to share things, but if they both have the same access to two boxes, both of them can mark it and use it as their own, but they're still sharing it.

This is a good idea. They are used to each other's scents from my switching their cages a couple times a day, but during the dates I had been trying to keep things more minimalistic.

Blue eyes, thanks for the videos! Looks like that set up is the way to go, much like the cotton tail videos. Good thing I just got a few large boxes at Costco.

 

[Chrisdoc]

Lyndy this is a tough one and there´s not going to be any easy or even quick way to fix. After two of mine having a really close bond and then losing it due to issues we had last Christmas, it´s taken me nearly 7 months to get them back together, I think I told you the whole story on your blog. Even now, they get on but Snowy doesn´t like Houdini going in his little house, he´ll let Bandy in there but not Houdini. Maybe there are some things that they just don´t want to share.

When I was rebonding these two, I used to let them stay out even when they nipped and jumped but with no real serious fights. Sometimes even now they are play hard, jump over each other, chase each other and nip but no longer pull fur or fight. I really wish there was a surefire way to bond bunnies but they are all so different.

Those two are so lovely together, I really hope they sort themselves out but it may still take a while.

 

[Troller]

I had a similar thing happen to me with bonding and I almost gave up. I decided to take one last shot at it and go for broke and put them in together until they bond or I knew for a fact it wouldn't work. It did the trick but it wasn't easy.

My first suggestion is whatever neutral territory your using use a different one. If you don't have, create an entirely new on by taking an existing one, rearrange things and clean (water & white vinegar) thoroughly and set them up in that with new things and one hidey hole with two openings so there is no dead end. For me I just moved my dining table, laid out some coroplast and brought a slew of new things.

The next hardest part was the marathon bonding. I stayed around them for 60+ hours (long weekend) and slept right next them. Mine fought, like yours usually at the 2-3 hour mark but i would break them up by broom stick or some other means but never physically. Doing so is too much interference and doesn't let them sort it out i feel. In the morning and evening I would put them in the same carrier and take them for a 15 minute drive. Now i won't lie to you, the first day was terrible and i nearly gave up. They fought , they pulled fur and they chased. If it looked bad I did intervene with a broom stick. I would have quit but I had to let slip a little my tolerance level for their tussling and if I felt absolutely sure they would not stop fighting even after I would force them to separate by broomstick or sliding a divider into the pen then I would have ended it. As it was I was guilt wracked that they might injure each other it was so bad.

Then the next day it was bad because i realized Conan stopped fighting but always ran if Xena approached him. I actually despaired that this would be a permanent thing but really it was Conan i guess accepting that he wouldn't be dominant. Eventually though, after 60+ hours they could coexist. Not groom or be next to each other, but be in the same area. I couldn't keep them together since I couldn't supervise but I made sure for a week they'd be together when ever i was around and when i wasn't i had thoroughly cleaned, rearranged and neutralized their own room and cage and left a very thin divider. Eventually I realized the divider was completely unnecessary and let them be together.

They still didn't exhibit what I heard was bonded behavior, but they could be in the same area and live together so I was content with that. Only after a few weeks did I notice they started grooming each other and lying next to each other and so finally they we're bonded. Mind you when i say mines sounded much like your bonding experience I mean i did everything by the book with 5 minute dates that lasted longer and did it for 5 months. I really think my rabbits were the type that needed the fast approach from the very beginning and the only reason why they got along so badly was because the slow method wasn't ideal for them.

Here's a site and a lady that inspired me when I was a hairs breath away from quitting. The lady managed to bond 3 siblings and then add two different rabbits later to make a quintuplet. She also runs a service to where you can get her advice personally which I almost used but just knowing that I could kind of bolstered me to continue.

http://www.wheekwheekthump.com/2013...rs-guide-rabbit-bonding-everything-need-know/

Good luck


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[lyndym]

Thanks everyone for your responses. Troller, I had a second wind (though more like third or fourth or fifth wind) of confidence after your reply because I always knew you had a dramatic pair, even without having read your blog yet. I decided to give things a go tonight and set them up a really nice area in our living room. My roommate and I spent some time cutting holes in new hidey boxes and preparing new litter boxes and setting up my semi-permanent residence on the couch. After maybe half an hour tops, I had to give up. After a few minutes of solo exploring, Rory would not leave Doc alone, and the interactions were the type that just escalate instead of one rabbit walking away because Doc would try and leave Rory alone and she would seek him out to fight again! I separated them with my Swiffer several times until Rory pulled more and more fur from Doc and eventually gave him quite the gash on his lip. I fished him out at that point, not knowing he was injured, just from the fight looking so so bad. I know this is typically a no-no because the other rabbit will feel that they've sort of "won" the fight and gotten rid of the other one, but she hadn't left him alone the whole time and he was really taking a beating. My poor little guy was panting and snuffling and looked so scared. I held him and petted him to calm him down, and then my roommate noticed the gash on his lip. I have seen not as serious gashes from fights before, but I have never seen an injury that will allow blood to be shown through the fur. I guess fur is a lot less thick on that area of the face, but still. I started crying and immediately lost hope for these two. I can't let either one be hurt like that again. He has calmed down now, and he's eating pellets and greens. Rory wasn't bothered by the fighting in the slightest, and as Doc only got one measly tuft of fur from her, she didn't sustain any injuries. I'm going to call my vet when the office opens in the morning to see about antibiotics, Doc's due for a check up any how.

Thanks again for all the advice. I would ask for more, but I've pretty much given up.

 

[Blue eyes]

Try not to feel bad. Some bonds just aren't meant to be. You've given it more than a good go. I truly believe that each individual knows their rabbits best and your gut is worth trusting. It sounds like it will be best for Doc to be relieved of the stress.
I never did post the video of my boys' last scuffle, but it sounds similar to what you experienced. There comes a point where your gut tells you that this just isn't going to work.

 

[lyndym]

Thanks Blue eyes. Not to get all emotional, but I always felt I'd feel more "complete" after bonding Doc and Rory since I lost Dora so young. She and Doc were great together, and I could tell he missed having a friend with him after she passed, and I really miss seeing two happy buns together in my house.

I mentioned this on my blog, but for everyone looking in on this thread.. What is your experience with adding a third rabbit to help a bond? This is not something I ever thought I'd do, mostly because I don't know a ton about it and don't even want to think about how difficult it might be after all the rabbit drama I've already had. Not to mention I'm just a student and would love to keep my rabbit budget set for two buns at most! This is just an idea I keep stumbling across in all my research.

 

[Troller]

I'm so sorry that happened. True its time to take a brake or accept that it wont happen with two. About two months into my bonding scenario I noticed Conan's eye was crusty with blood. I took him to the Vet and she told me it looks like Xena had bitten his eye lid. Luckily it didn't require stitches. I took a month from bonding then. I'm not relating this to change your mind because in truth only you know since your there first hand what can and wont work. For me I knew they could get along they just had to get over themselves. For yours, i hope you don't let it discourage you because even two separate rabbits are a lot of loving fun.


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[lyndym]

Thanks Troller. Maybe I'll feel better after yet another hiatus.. I'm glad Conan was okay and didn't need sutures. I just updated my blog about Doc's vet visit today, but long story short for this thread - he is okay like I thought, no major treatment needed, though he did receive shots of metacam and baytril and oral versions of those meds to take for the next several days. They also shaved his side a bit so I can better monitor the wound there.

The big thing for this pair is they simply cannot decide who will be top bun. In the beginning, Rory wanted it really badly, and Doc seemed to be meekly giving in. (Doc was first to groom, he allowed her to bully him into not exploring an area, etc.) Then the tables turned unexpectedly with Doc all of a sudden putting on the proverbial pants one day and showing Rory who was boss. For a few weeks she was grooming the heck out of him whenever he wanted it, with him only giving a few licks at a time, and letting him mount her without complaint and everything. Then for no reason, she decided she wanted to be big kid on campus again and dialed the hostility way up. Nothing has changed in their habits or daily routine or anything that I've been doing to provoke these instances. Blargh.

 

[Troller]

Sounds very much like mine. Two dominant buns really going at it. Now i know whats done is done but i got to ask, did you take them out for a car ride or stress them before your started or when they started fighting? I found stressing mine really started to work but I had to make it part of the routine. The bathtub wasn't a stressor, being confined together worked at first but petered out but being confined and in a car drastically slowed down their aggression (though didnt eliminate it ).


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