Bonding Not Working

[pshepard]

Hey All!

I have two male rabbits, a New Zealand Red who's around 6lbs named Bunny and a Holland Lop who's around 3 lbs named Pickles. I've had Bunny since he was 2-3 months old. I've had him for 14 months now I. I've had Pickles since he was 2-3 months old also. I've had him for 4-5 months now. Both rabbits are fixed. Bunny was fixed last Summer and Pickles was fixed a little over 3 months ago. I tried bonding them unsuccessfully before Pickles was fixed and posted on here about the whole ordeal and I took everyone's advice on fixing Pickles first and letting him heal up before bonding. It's a few months later and I'm still having the same issues. Whenever I put these two together, they go at it. There's fur pulling, biting, growling, chasing. I pull them apart every time and after 2 or 3 spats I stop the bonding to prevent anyone from getting hurt. Pickles is usually missing a chunk of hair by the time it's all over. Bunny bites him so fast I don't have time to react.

The last time I tried (about a week ago) Pickles took a big chunk out of my hand when I was trying to separate them...I usually wear gloves but I guess I was feeling a little too confident that day. Their cages are back to back, only a couple of inches apart and have been that way since I first got Pickles. Pickles seems to like Bunny alright but Bunny seems to hate everything about Pickles. I can't butt their cages up too close because Bunny will bite and claw through the cage to try and get to Pickles. If Bunny is running around in his x-pen which is attached to his cage and he hears Pickles running around or something he'll run full speed back to his cage and stare down Pickles like he's mad at him for being noisy.

Bunny is super aggressive with or without Pickles. He growls when I put food in his cage. I can't put food in his bowl without him growling and biting me so I actually have to throw his veg somewhere else in the cage so I can fill up his pellet bowl and water dish. If I let Bunny run around in the house he usually plays nice but if I'm near his x-pen or charge he'll usually get mad and try to bite. What's not helping is Pickles has decided that he's the dominant one. He's half Bunny's size but he is now trying to mount Bunny during bonding time and Bunny hates it. Bunny has never tried to mount Pickles though. Pickles always bows his head when a dog is around him or a human gets near him so I guess he thinks everyone is supposed to submit to him, LOL.

I'm kind of at my wits end here. I've tried the bathtub, the hallway, running the vacuum, etc and nothing is working. It always ends bad. Any ideas from bonders who've had this situation before? I haven't tried to car method but that's not really feasible. You can't put them in the same box without them trying to kill each other. The only thing I haven't tried is putting them in an area and just leaving them and squirting them when they start to fight. I'm always in the area with them during bonding since they fight so much so I'm nervous to be outside of the caged area armed only with a water bottle. I don't think the spray will be enough to get them apart if they get into a heated fight. And they like to charge each other head on. I'm really worried one is going to bite the other one's eye out. Pickles will stand his ground for a while but he usually starts to cry and thump near the end. I pet both of them on the head and feed them treats to try and calm them but they just start fighting again. I really hope there's a solution out there for us!

 

[Azerane]

Not meaning to sound pessimistic about the whole situation, but sometimes rabbits just don't like each other, simple as that. Afraid I don't have any helpful advice, will let those who have dealt with bonding before step in with that

 

[Troller]

Your in a tough spot since both rabbits are male. In countless articles Ive read its mentioned that any two rabbits can bond, just the hardest ones will take the longest, up to years and it might not be worth the effort involved. Are you ready for that or can you just deal with having two seperate rabbits?

I read you tried a lot of the tricks, but I didn't see mentioned cage swapping or surrogates? Cage swapping is self explanatory, surrogates is when you buy stuffed animals, usually the color and shape of your pets, cut a hole and stuff some of the rabbits fur and then sow it up and give it to the opposite rabbit. Or just find a way to get one rabbits scent on one and give it to the other. Lets a rabbit get its aggression out without injury involved. Not saying its an answer but it might help.

 

[BunnyWabbit]

With really aggressive rabbits it can help to separate them with a metal strainer during bonding sessions. This allows them to see/smell/interact with each other without them being able to actually "get at" each other.

Stress bonding is the name of the game with violent bunnies. My favorite stressing method is using a "cube". I make a 1X1 out of NIC panels like this:


I usually set them on the couch and bounce/jostle them. I've also placed them on a computer chair and shake and push them around the house. If you don't have access to NIC panels you could probably do something similar with a box or small laundry basket. Just be careful about them trying to jump out of them.

Whenever you can, avoid ending on a bad note. You don't want already aggressive rabbits to associate fighting with getting what they want (the other bunny away from them). Of course with really aggressive bunnies this can be hard sometimes and the health and their health and well being should be priority. So don't be afraid to end a session on a "bad note" if you're worried about serious harm being inflicted on one or both of them.

Have you done any "pre bonding" stuff? Like surrogate stuffed animals or switching out litter boxes? It might be beneficial to take a break for a little while and do some of that stuff (even if you've been doing it).

 

[Blue eyes]

From what you describe, a bond does not seem like it's going to happen. That is always the risk when getting buns that have not been neutered. There is simply no way to predict how they will see each other once fixed.

Given the severity of the aggression, forcing a bond (especially with 2 males) probably isn't worth the stress for you or for the rabbits. It's the sad truth that sometimes 2 bunnies simply won't get along. There have been suggestions too that stress bonding can backfire and increase the chance of a broken bond down the road.

If they have gotten to the point of out & out fighting like you have described (and more than once) then the chances of reconciliation are remote.

You might want to consider keeping their cages out of each other's sights to minimize stress.

If, in the future, you decide to bond either of them with a spayed female, I would recommend that you go through a rescue that allows bunny dates. This doesn't guarantee a bond, but it does have the advantage of greatly increasing your chances. The rescue can help interpret positive signs during the date. Then, if you bring her home and it just doesn't work, the rescue will allow you to exchange her for another. My current girl, Sapphire, rejected several boys at the rescue. Twice we brought a potential home with us and she wouldn't accept either. Third one was the charm. Some bunnies are just more choosy than others.

 

[BunnyWabbit]

There have been suggestions too that stress bonding can backfire and increase the chance of a broken bond down the road.

I've never heard this. Can you point me towards that information? I'm always looking to learn more about bonding.

 

[DUSTBUNNY-CLYDE]

I know your frustration. we've been trying bonding/ bonding techniques for a while with the boys! they aren't as bad as your though. they go weeks getting along then a fight breaks out! we started the car ride stress bonding and just stopped. we did it 3 days in a row and the last day the boys were shaking horrifically for 4 hours afterwards. they were not recovering from it. it was horrible to see them like that. the boys do cuddle through the fence all the time and like when they see each other but I think it's going to take a lot of time with some pairs. we are going to still try to bond them but reality is, they will probably just live separate!! good luck!!

 

[Blue eyes]

I've never heard this. Can you point me towards that information? I'm always looking to learn more about bonding.

Let's see... I couldn't find where I originally read it.... but I did find this:


©2007 House Rabbit Connection, Inc.

Over the years we have learned that forced bonding techniques (such as taking rabbits on car rides, placing them together on washing machines during a spin cycle, or inventing other stressful situations that force two rabbits to come together in search of solace) are not as effective as gradual bonding. Forced bonds are quick to deteriorate when the dynamics of the pair’s relationship changes, such as through the illness of the more dominant rabbit or when another animal or family member is added to the household. We believe that the best way to bond rabbits is to provide an appropriate environment, supervision, consistency, and most of all—patience—and allow the bond to occur naturally. Using the steps outlined in this section, most rabbit pairs will bond themselves over time. Some rabbit pairs will take longer if they need to overcome past experiences of insult or injury, but these long-term bonding processes are less common. Once again, we believe our role in the bonding process is one of patience, supervision, and respect for the individual personality of each rabbit involved.

http://hopline.org/PDFs/HRC Care Guide UPDATED VERSION 09_12.pdf

And then also this:
"Some rabbits will react well to bonding over stress while others may become more aggressive towards each other."
from
http://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Bonding

 

[BunnyWabbit]

Thanks Bright Eyes! Interesting for sure, I'd never heard that point of view. Pretty much every bonding resource mentions SOME kind of stress bonding. (Even WabbitWiki has a section on it, despite their warning).

Here are 4 from the HRS:
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/4-4/tough-bonding.html
http://www.rabbitsinthehouse.org/match2.htm
http://www.wisconsinhrs.org/Articles/Bunny Brawl.htm
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/2-5/ever-be-friends.html

In my personal experience (Trio) stress bonding is a very effective way to get two bunnies that dislike each other to tolerate each other's presence without fighting. I don't consider it a "way" of bonding in and of itself and wouldn't call two rabbits that only get along during stress bonding "bonded". It's more of a tool that allows them to move past their initial "I HATE THE OTHER BUNNY" so they can bond. It definitely does not replace regular bonding sessions and techniques and shouldn't be thought of as a "quick fix".

I know many people that have bonded trios, quartets, pairs, and even 5 rabbits (I don't know what that's called) by utilizing stress bonding as a tool.

I'm not trying to debate or anything. Just explaining how and why I use it.

 

[Blue eyes]

No worries... I'm not debating either. I just knew I had read somewhere about questioning the wisdom of too much emphasis on stress-bonding.

I know the House Rabbit Society and many U.S. rabbit rescues encourage the slow method of bonding with lots of bonding sessions. In addition, many will also use the stress-approach along the way. Others just keep to the slow method alone. I think individuals do well to read their individual bunnies' reactions and use what method they are comfortable with and what seems to work with their rabbits.

I personally tend to shy away from forced (stress) bonding, other than the incidental, initial car-ride home from the rescue. My thought is that if 2 rabbits are that resistant to bonding, then, as House Rabbit Connection suggests, that bond may not stand up to future changes.

I've actually come to appreciate the fast-approach method of bonding that I read about on a UK site. CottonTails Rescue puts the rabbits together and leaves them together 24/7, monitoring them all the while. They have videos on their site showing good bonds, difficult one, and one that didn't work.