Bladder Stone and Bladder Sludge

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tazzychan

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Hello all, my bunny Tazzy was diagnosis with a bladder stone and she is getting it removed today. Four months ago for had bladder sludge. I cut down on my pellets she was having timothy hay based pellets and increased her vegetable contents mainly giving her dandelion greens, romaine lettuce and chinese Bok Choy and she still developed a stone. I am so worried that she will get another stone and will have to have surgery again which cost a lot of money. Can I please get some advice from any rabbit owner who has been through this and what is the best way to prevent any more bladder stones or sludge from returning.

Thanks


 
There are several members who have dealt with this and are currently dealing with it. The current research suggests that cutting down on the calcium in the diet doesn't really help as much as it is said to. It appears that even if calcium is removed almost entirely from the diet, the rabbit will dissolve calcium out of its bones and form stones or sludge that way. It seems that balancing the electrolytes in the blood, getting a lot of water into the system, and getting the rabbit some natural sunlight (or supplementing vitamin D) can help better than eliminating calcium from the diet. However, how hard is your water? Excess minerals in the water could contribute. I would give her a bowl of cranberry juice diluted 4x with water as well to promote healthy urinary tract function.

Check out this library article: Urinary Tract Problems
 
My rabbit Chase, has had 2 bladder stones removed and still has sludge problems. I would make sure your vet sends the stone out so you know what it is made of. Most stones I believe, are made of calcium but in order for you to prevent this or try to prevent from happening again you will want to know what the stone was made of.

One thing my vet didn't tell me was how fast they can form. Chase formed a huge stone 3 months after the first stone was removed. After the 2nd stone was removed, sludge started to sit in the bladder after 10 days. So make sure you take your bunny in to have x-rays after this stone is removed.

I agree with Claire, that it doesn't seem to make a difference when you remove high calcium food from the diet. Though I still do try to stick to things that are lower in calcium, I make sure she still has calcium in her diet.

One thing that really has helped Chase was to get her to consume more water. Like Claire said you can flavor the water. That didn't work with my bun. I make sure to soak my veggies for atleast an hour before giving them. They will absorb some of the water and when your bun eats them will be getting that extra water. If it comes down to it you can also do Sub Q fluids at home. The vet can show you how to do them.

I also got a water filter for my faucet even though I have good water.

Making sure the bunny has lots of exercise. This will help keep the urine in the bladder moving and hopefully expell more calcium.

I will be watching your thread. Let us know how your bunny does after surgery.
 
Well we just returned home from the vet and Tazzy had her bladder stone removed it was about the size of an almond yikes so big for a little girl who only weighs 3 pounds. Ever since we got home from surgery she is grinding her teeth and sitting in a hunched position and not wanting to eat. I know she wont be back to normal right after surgery but how long should I wait before I should I be concerned if she isnt eatting or pooing?? Is there anything I can do to help speed up her recovery or should I just leave her alone and let her sleep.

Thanks
 
Hope Tazzy gets better soon. Our Pumpkin was just diagnosed with bladder stones (2) today. We're doing sub-Qs, and returning to the vet next Friday. I'll be thinking of you and your girl.
 
What kind of pain meds did they give you? When Chase had her first stone removed metacam seemed to be enough. But with her second stone I brought her home and she was grinding her teeth. I went back to the vet and got a stronger pain med, buphernex (sp?). I would make sure she is on a strong enough pain med.

With Chase, it worked best at first if I hand feed her. Soak some cilantro in water as you said that is something she already gets so it won't upset her stomach and see if she will take a piece from you. I left a tupperware container full of water and cilantro and would go in and give Chase a few peices every 30 minutes or so. But it took several hours before she would take anything if I am remembering correctly. Soaking it will get some water in her also.

I would do the same with hay. Hand feed her some if she will take it.

Make sure the litter box is low also. It is something I didn't think of until I saw Chase struggling to get in it. I had to go buy a new one with smaller sides until she healed.

For now I would offer food to her. If she doesn't want it I would let her sleep for awhile. Make sure she is comfortable and warm and try food again in a few hours.

Good luck

ETA: She probably isn't going to move much to get water or food so make sure you have some sitting close to her if she wants some, it is easier for her to get to.
 
Hi,

I am hoping some of the more computer savvy people can help in finding these....but I have posted quite a bit in variousthreads recently regarding these issues. I have dealt with this quite often. Many of the ideas still used by many are not exactly correct. So if someone could help in highlighting some of the posts I have made. Basically it comes down to the long held idea that a diet too high in calcium is the only cause....and that is incorrect. Rabbits do metabolize calcium differently than most other animals and excrete about 60% of their intake thru the urine (most other animals excrete about 2% of intake). Dehydration (and most rabbits are dehydrated due to their man made environment) is a huge factor. And something very few people, including vets, take into consideration is that rabbits have bones and teeth and those require calcium. Most species, including humans, are Vitamin D deficient. In animals, they get most of their Vitamin D thru exposure to sunlight. The only other way to get this vitamin is by supplements. Vitamin D is the catalyst that helps absorb calcium into the body. Calcium deficiencies can lead to a devastating disease known as Metabolic Bone Disease.

I am very concerned about the tooth grinding as this is an indication of extreme pain. Removing a stone is a major surgery and your rabbit should be on both an anti-inflammatory (such as Metacam) along with a narcotic (Buprenorphine) or a narcotic like drug (Tramadol). If your vet did not prescribe a narcotic for post-op pain management, I would be finding him/her tonight and get proper meds. Your rabbit will not eat when in that type of pain.

Randy
 
Hey All

She is slowly grazing on hay by herself and she did eat a couple pieces or cilantro that I hand fed her. My main concern now is her incision area. The doctor used tissue glue to close her incision because my little girl has had a tendency to pullout her stitiches, but this morning when I checked up on her she had pulled some of the glue and hair out, the incision is still closed but the area is pretty red. The vet said that those cone things are not good for rabbits, but my little girl will pull anything out and I cant watch her 24 hours a day. Any suggestions from people who had this problem?



Thanks
 
An option is to put a soft e-collar on. This is a sock wrapped loosely around the neck and secured with safety pins or tape. I can't find pictures of it right now, sorry.
 
You can also put a small shirt on them--like a dog or infant shirt (or doll shirt, since your girl sounds really small). Is she in less pain today?
 
She is no longer obessed with picking at her insicion, she is doing a lot better today eatting,pooing and running around more.Thank you everyone for their suggestions.I just hope this bladder stone thing never comes back. I still cant get her to drink more water, I tried the diluted fruit juice thing but she isnt into it. Does anyone have any more tricks. The vet also said that sub Q fruits are too stressful and I shouldn't use them.
 
I just discovered that Pipp loves cucumber juice.

And not sure which fruit juice you tried, but keep experimenting. Cranberry is still the best for the bladder (although I dilute mine far more than four parts water, that's pretty strong) but try putting a cap full of apple juice or something sweeter in there, too. Always put out plain water as well and change the juice-laced water often.

Some bunnies like a drop or two of vanilla in the water. (Mine hate it).

Soak all their veggies in water for as long as you can (within reason) before you give them to her.

Canned pumpkin is a wet fiber, if she likes that.

What are sub q fruits??? :?


sas :bunnydance:
 
Ditto Pipp, I would keep trying different juices. I even tried to make some of my own cilantro juice. I just blended it up with lots of water and then put it through a coffee pot strainer and it was liquid enough to flow through the water bottle with no problems. The soaking of the greens was the only thing I found that my rabbit will take. I would also offer a water bowl and a water bottle. A cat water fountain can also get the bunny to drink more. The vet should also be able to get you some flavoring that they use when they compound medications if you want to see what flavors they would have available for you.
Good luck Amy
 
Thanks so much for the suggestion of soaking the vegs that seems like one of the best ways to get more water into her and she loves eatting the veg after they have been soaked in water. I read that some bunnies more be more genetically predisposed to getting bladder stone, my bunny is a netherland dwarf is this breed more susceptible to this problem? Also does anyone know if sludge can turn into a bladder stone. Since Tazzy had bladder sludge 4 months ago and I think we never 100% completely cleared it out and I wonder if that sludge turned into the bladder stone.
 
I have also heard that bunnies love grenadine (that flavoring used in cocktails). The veggies is a good way--I do that too when I'm worried about GI issues during molts when they eat a lot of hair.

I don't think netherland dwarves in particular are more susceptible to it, but I know some breeders will find that a particular "line" of related bunnies will have it. I assume since bladder sludge is what a geneticist would call a maladaptive trait (some thing that doesn't help the animal survive better), that it is more common in lines that are more inbred. Traits like that are usually recessive so they come out when related bunnies are bred. Because Nethies are a special breed with some other maladaptive traits (like that flat face and tiny ears, along with a predisposition for tooth problems), it would make sense that sludge could occur more often in them. Some of the traits that make a nethie good on the show table are rare and a breeder will have to breed related bunnies together to get all the traits they want in a single bunny. Also, depending on where you got her, she may have been from an accidental litter between relatives. At the shelter I help at, a lot of bunnies come from accidental litters where someone had siblings and didn't know they were sexually mature until one had a litter--some people don't even know their bunnies' sexes until a bunch of babies appear! So, her genetic background could be pretty murky and it's hard to tell. I know responsible breeders don't do sibling breeding, but they will do relative breeding. They will also take a bunny out of the breeding program if they develop a problem like sludge, but not all breeders are responsible and not all can find sludge until they've already had a few litters.

Sludge and stones are definitely related. Amy's Chase had stones first, and then sludge, if I remember correctly. It would make sense that a large amount of unresolved sludge could form into a stone over time.

I don't think sub-q's are too stressful, but they can be difficult to give if you don't have a lot of experience. The solution itself also has to be stored with care, and the fluids need to be warmed to body temp before injecting, which can be stressful. Myheart has a bunny named Luna with chronic kidney stones, and for a while, she was getting a lot of sub-q's administered at home, either daily or every other day. She has improved a lot and didn't seem to be too bothered by the sub-q's.

Good luck!
 
tonyshuman wrote:
Sludge and stones are definitely related. Amy's Chase had stones first, and then sludge, if I remember correctly. It would make sense that a large amount of unresolved sludge could form into a stone over time.


Claire is correct, Chase had 2 stones and now has sludge. I have found different opinions online and from different vets on whether sludge can turn into stones. I have heard that they are not the same and that sludge cannot turn into a stone and then I have heard that it is possible for sludge to form into a stone.

Chase got Sub Q's for a couple months but it really didn't seem to help. She would be stressed while we gave the Sub Q's which took about 10 minutes for 150 ml's. But as soon as it was over she would take a treat and be fine. I just think she didn't like being held in one spot and not allowed to move. She hates being held for anything.
 
Wow my Tazzy sounds exactly like your Chase. So with just extra fluids and exercise Chase hasn't had a bladder stone anymore?? Tazzy has been drinking more lately and I am trying to increase her exercise time. I just hope this thing never comes back again.
 
Chase hasn't had stones anymore but she has had sludge. Her last stone was January 2009. The amount of sludge she has isn't anything to be to concerned about. The vet just watches her closely with the sludge because of her past. She went several months sludge free and it came back a few months ago but the amount has not increased. It has been a frustrating road to try to figure out what has caused it. The vet thinks it is genetics. She was tested for everything and everything came back normal. Chase hadn't received pellets for years before getting the stones so it wasn't high amounts of calcium in her diet.

Do you know if your vet sent the stone to be analyzed to verify the stone was made of calcium?

I would also make sure to take your bun in for repeat x-rays. Chase started to develop sludge 10 days after her 2nd stone was removed. We were able to start doing things to stop the sludge from continuing to form. But if I had waited it may have been to late to try things like sub q's and expression of the bladder. Until you know if or when this may come back I would get rechecks of her bladder frequently. If everything comes back okay you can spread out the checks. But it is so much easier on the bunny and your pocket book to deal with sludge then a stone. When Chase's second stone was removed her bladder was really bad. The vet wasn't sure how much more her bladder could take. Both of her stones were very large.

Getting more exercise is really good. Sludge tends to sit on the bottom of the bladder so when they urinate, sludge may not come out. If they get a lot of exercise it moves the urine around and can stir up the sludge sitting on the bottom of the bladder so when they urinate hopefully some of the sludge will come out.

The increase in water will make them urinate more to hopefully get more of the sludge out.

I don't know if you have carpet where you feed Tazzy. But I feed Chase's greens on the carpet. When I go in 12 hours later, there is still water marks on the carpet from her greens. That tells me they absorb a lot of water. I would also feed Tazzy the soaked veggies when she is in her cage so she eats them ASAP. If she is out running around she may not eat them as fast and get as much water as she could if she eats them right away.

It sounds like you are doing a great job of keeping this from coming back.

How is Tazzy doing from the surgery? The surgery aftercare always scared the crap out of me. I hated it.

ETA: I wanted to say, if you haven't had the chance to read the link Claire gave above, I would read that. My thread with Chase is in there. I know there was some advice I was given that was great but that I may have forgotten to post. Also Myheart's thread is in there that has some great advice that you may be able to use.
 
Tazzy is doing really good after the surgery, about one day after surgery she was eatting and bouncing around. Yes the vet sent out her stone to be examined I am going back for a recheck in two weeks so I should know the results by then. One thing I did notice about Tazzy is that she has a crazy appetite she can go through like three bowls of hay a day, maybe she just eats too much which results into the high level of calcium in her body. I got her on a new exercise routine now and hopefully that will help. Thanks for your advice its great to talk to other people who have been through this.
 
That is awesome Tazzy is doing so well. You will have to post what the vet says in 2 weeks. I am interested to know if it is calcium. I would have the vet do an x-ray to look at the bladder at your 2 week check up so you know what you are dealing with.

What kind of hay are you feeding? I don't believe that a high calcium diet results in stones or sludge. I believe that a normal rabbit should expell any calcium that is not needed. I think there is another reason that allows the calcium to sit in the bladder. Though I don't know what that reason is, could be genetics. You will find a lot of different opinions on whether diet has anything to do with it. But though I think it doesn't have anything to do with it, I still try to watch how much calcium I give Chase, though I never limit hay. I give her as much as she wants.

Here is a link that tells the calcium content of different types of hay. http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/caforage.html
This one tells the calcium content of veggies http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/calevel.html
 

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