Behavior issues

[khaelbee]

Some of you may have read my little introduction about max and sammy, max is a white dwarf male, and sammy is a mix breed medium size female... my boyfriend found sammy, so we got max as a buddy for her. sammy is (according to the pet shop) about a year old, and we got max at 2 months old. he's now about 2 1/2 months. we're slowly trying to introduce them, but max isn't fully grown yet, so i'm sketchy about putting them together full time at this point. we put max into sammy's hutch (bad idea, i know) so they could come nose to nose to see what happened. they didn't start fighting.... instead, sammy peed on max's face and then went into her little home. i took him inside and cleaned him up and figured it was just because rabbits are very territorial.

today, i took max out into the front yard where we had a little fenced off area set up, and kris put sammy in there with max. once again, they started sniffing eachother's rear ends and sammy peed on max's face. it appears as though she bit him a couple times, but all it did was leave slobber on him (she didn't bite hard at all) and she didn't try to hit him or anything. is this her just trying to show him that she's dominant?

also, for about the past 4 days, i've been having behavioral issues with max. when i first got him he was so kind and loving. he never kicked or scratched, i could flip him on his back and pet his belly, and he would just relax and enjoy it. about 4 days ago, i reached in to pick him up (as i always have) and he pounced at my hand and tried to bite me. it wasn't a hard bite, more like a warning. unless i'm reaching in his cage to pet his head or refill his food or water, he attacks my hand. normally he pounces and swings at me, but there were a couple times when he nipped (this makes it REALLY difficult to clean out his cage)... normally when he pounces i pull my hand back, but lately i've been trying a new technique... instead of pulling away, i keep my hand there and let him hit me, then i firmly tell him NO. it actually stopped him today.... but my hands still look like i got into a fight with Edward Scissorhands... is this just a phase or is my rabbit turning mean?

 

[tamsin]

Umm, you've been introducing a boy and a girl... I hope one is neutered???

I'm guessing Max isn't if he is only 10 weeks old. I would suggest you hold off introductions until he is old enough to neuter and then try introductions again.

The behaviour is probably a result of hormones kicking in which you've triggered by introducing an unneutered male and a female. That leads to things like spraying urine, territorial aggression and pooping everywhere. Luckily this should be resolved with the neutering.

After neutering you then need to introduce them somewhere neutral so they can get to know each other.

 

[khaelbee]

we were hoping not to neuter... i know i'm gonna catch grief for this but we got the boy so we could have babies... there's gotta be a way to introduce them without spaying or neutering.

 

[khaelbee]

the firm "NO" seems to be working. he seems to understand the difference between me telling him no and me talking to him in a comfortable voice. it seems as though he understands when i say "no" he's doing something wrong and needs to stop.

just now i stuck my hand in to pet him and he went to attack, i said NO and he went back to where he was laying. just gonna take some time i guess.

 

[tamsin]

If you want babies you can't keep them together. Left in the same pen a female will constantly get pregnant and produce babies. That is a litter every four weeks.

Even if you could find homes for half a dozen babies every month that would have serious effect on the mothers health as she would have no time to recover. She would quickly lose weight and her health would deteriorate.

If you want your rabbits to live together and have each others company you need to neuter. If you want to breed then you need to keep the separate and only introduce them for mating, then separate them again.

If you decide breeding is your priority then you need to do a lot more research first. There are all sorts of issues to consider, the health of the mum, the suitability of your two rabbits to be bred together, the cost of emergency care, what you will do with the babies etc. there are a few points to consider here: http://www.rabbitrehome.org.uk/care/breedingrabbits.asp

 

[elrohwen]

Agreed with tamsin - you cannot house a male and female together without them both being fixed. It just won't work and the female will get pregnant every four weeks which is extremely dangerous - she will be weaning one litter before they're old enough in order to raise the second litter.

Please rethink what you're doing as it's not healthy for either of your rabbits. Keep them separate, or fix them and introduce them and keep them as a pair.

Also, the territorial behavior in the cage is quite typical for hormonal rabbits - either male or female. Neutering will help with that. If you have a rabbit who is aggressive when unfixed, do you really want him to pass that personality on to offspring?

 

[khaelbee]

okay, thanks for avoiding ALL of my questions and telling me that the ONLY solution is neutering. that's not the only solution, we obviously have 2 cages now, and i'm ok with not having them together full time.

i'm trying to find solutions to my rabbits behavioral issues, not be preached to about neutering my rabbit. i have made it VERY clear that in my head, at this point that is not an option. thanks anyways though guys.

 

[Flirtycuddle]

With my male who is nutered I used the loud squeal kinda noise when he'd nip for whatever reason. That worked for a while then it was the firm no in a high pitched voice to kinda shock him but eventually he ignored that too. Finally when he'd start his behavior I'd squirt him with a water bottle while saying no. More of a mist then a squirt though and that has worked for a while now. He's stopped nipping me for the most part unless I ignore his obvious signs of wanting attention lol. He has never been cage aggressive though so not sure on that aspect sorry.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

Everything you said sounds like territorial behavior and dominance behavior. Once a rabbit settles in and is used to the surroundings, their true self starts to come out--they lose the timidity that they first had and their true self emerges. When I've had to deal with an extremely aggressive bunny--i.e. one that attacks to the point of making me bleed profusely, I treat it in the same way an alpha rabbit would. I'll pin them down or roll them onto their back and hold them their while talking to them in a calm voice. Usually once or twice and they no longer bite me as we have established who is the alpha in the equation. We have rescued close to 30 bunnies, and the very first thing we do is to have them neutered when they are old enough as it makes their behavior so much more even. Good luck.

 

[khaelbee]

thought you all would be happy to see these... this is from much learning from and working with max and sammy and seeing what their likes and dislikes were...

Playing Together

It looks like Max is being a butt, but really he's just being a little boy and playing with Sammy. She actually tolerated it, and bounded across the yard away from him a couple times to get him to chase her.

Now They Live Together

Its kind of hard to see in this picture, but Sammy has welcomed Max into her home, and she even showed him around a bit earlier. It was the cutest thing ever.

 

[Happi Bun]

Yes, you are going to catch grief. Breeding mixed breed rabbits just because you want babies while thousands are euthanized in shelters each year is irresponsible and inconsiderate. Rabbits are the third most euthanized animal in the United States next to cats and dogs. Lets not forget the genetic problems you may encounter.

They appear very unprotected from the elements in that hutch.

 

[Moro Ferret]

tamsin wrote:

If you want babies you can't keep them together. Left in the same pen a female will constantly get pregnant and produce babies. That is a litter every four weeks.

Even if you could find homes for half a dozen babies every month that would have serious effect on the mothers health as she would have no time to recover. She would quickly lose weight and her health would deteriorate.

If you want your rabbits to live together and have each others company you need to neuter. If you want to breed then you need to keep the separate and only introduce them for mating, then separate them again.

If you decide breeding is your priority then you need to do a lot more research first. There are all sorts of issues to consider, the health of the mum, the suitability of your two rabbits to be bred together, the cost of emergency care, what you will do with the babies etc. there are a few points to consider here: http://www.rabbitrehome.org.uk/care/breedingrabbits.asp

Not to mention that many does are natural little feminists and won't tolerate a male's constant humping without opening a large can of "Whoop-Butt". Injuries can result. Several breeders have told me in the past that females have castrated a buck using their teeth. Ouch. I don't know how true that is, but I certainly wouldn't risk it.

If you're looking for companionship, get a pair fixed. Sometimes rabbits can befriend guinea pigs also, but you still have to watch for injuries and make sure they each have their nutritional needs fulfilled. Everyone has their different take on that one, but I have several friends who did that and it worked fine.

 

[khaelbee]

well, we got them living in the same hutch and they seem to be ok with it for now. they're sharing everything, including their little boxes that they WERE using for personal space. we're checking on them every couple of hours to make sure everything is ok. since we FOUND the female, we still aren't sure if she was spayed by her previous owner. i guess we'll know in about a month... if he's even big enough to impregnate her yet.

 

[Moro Ferret]

I strongly urge you not to breed mixed breed rabbits. I breed dutch, and I hate the whole "all breeders are bad and evil because we don't agree with what they do" trend. But...you shouldn't breed just to do it. Responsible breeding is taking two purebred animals of good lines that have specific desired traits, and breeding to try and get offspring with better desired traits. Breeding requires a love of a certain breed, money, patience, resources, time, knowledge, and an understanding of that breed and the genetics it has.

My question is...why? Mixed breeds are as good as any purebred in heart and soul, yet they are often doomed to a lesser fate. I understand wanting to improve a breed, but why breed just to do it? There are already countless mixed breed (and purebreds!) in shelters, many who were ditched by people who acquired them from Craigslist, a pet shop, or got them as a "toy" for their small children.

There is a "market" if you will for specific breeds. People will buy a well bred purebred to breed and to show. But a mixed breed is for pet only, and honestly the shelter buns don't need the competition.

I won't sit here and call you bad. I won't call you evil. You aren't, and people have a way of getting very "greater than thou" in the animal world -- quick to judge and quick to put down. I am not trying to do that, and I hope you don't feel that I am. I won't pull the animal rights thing on you, because it's REALLY irritating to only hear that one extreme side of the equation and it's becoming a popular trend. But I do think the choice itself is irresponsible and not in the best interest of your rabbits and their (hopefully not) future offspring. I think it would be wise to hold off on breeding and get this pair fixed. Take a year or so, and research breeds/go to shows and see if a breed really suits you. Learn about the breed and meet people who breed the rabbit you're interested in. Then, think really hard and see if you have the time, patience, and know-how to breed for show. If you do, that might be a better choice. But please don't breed just to have babies -- babies that will compete for the same homes that shelter bunnies need.

Furthermore, if you just want to work with rabbits -- even babies -- consider volunteering for a shelter. Many rabbits that come in have babies that you could work with and help raise, and you can immerse yourself in bunnies who need the extra help and love.

 

[Moro Ferret]

As for them living together, it may work for now, but the waters that are rabbit hormones are certainly turbulent. Many rabbits handle their hormones with more moodiness than a bi-polar tweenager with severe emotional issues.

I would not feel safe if I were you. Rabbit mothers can be MEAN and protective. They don't mess around. I Definitely think keeping them together when the babies come is recipe for pain and death.

I think my last post was a little late. I guess babies are the inevitable now. -_-;;

 

[khaelbee]

Well, if Sammy turns out to be pregnant we will separate them when the babies come. We still have 2 separate living quarters available. To be completely honest, seeing how well they are getting along in the hutch together right now, I'm almost hoping Sammy is fixed as I don't have the money to get Max neutered right now. They are out there being so lovey dovey right now, I almost don't want to mess that up by putting babies in the mix.

 

[Moro Ferret]

And I think that's wise of you.

You can explain your situation to a spay/neuter clinic. They MIGHT help you -- I have heard stories of it happening. That would be a free or discount fixing.

Also, a neuter is only like $90. I pay $110. I wouldn't go any higher -- some vets charge $200-400 etc, which is just greed and they know it.

I would look into getting her spayed if she isn't. It's more expensive, but worth it. Look for a scar to see if she is fixed -- that might help you determine it. Females are prone to cancer related to their hormones. The HRS estimates that 85% (I think) of whole females die to cancer. Personally, that doesn't seem right and I wonder if it's just to encourage fixing. However, I do think that the odds are high enough that they aren't worth playing around with. Females also can get a bad attitude that I've heard fixing will frequently resolve.

She probably is not fixed. I hate to say it this way, but most people who would abandon a bunny wouldn't pay for a surgical procedure.

If you could only fix one at a time, I would definitely look into getting her spayed first.

 

[Flash Gordon]

 

[Moro Ferret]

I would also consider bringing the buns indoors. The hutch -- though roomy enough, looks to have wiring that one could easily escape from, and doesn't shelter them much from the elements. Nocturnal predators and the illness/parasites they carry should be a huge concern. Rabbits can literally die of fear (cardiac arrest specifically) in the face of a predator banging on the bars. Not to mention if they DO fight and you don't hear the screams/stomps/banging you may come outside to find red balls of fluff that used to be bunnies.

Why not bring them in, and let them go out in the hutch for a bit on nice days? They do enjoy sunshine.

You mentioned that one bunny is young -- well when he grows up and has testosterone pumping through his veins and (like many human men) the ability to only think with his lower area, you will probably have fights. Human women have pepper spray, purses that are heavier than cinder blocks, space to physically resist, and several laws in their favor when it comes to pushy men. Does have claws and teeth and are locked in a small box with said pushy men. Not to mention a doe can't go to the local courthouse and press charges for unwanted advances. So she is going to physically fight the male when she gets fed up with his painfully one track mind. That's recipe for disaster.

I would be wary of your pair. What seems like a match made in heaven today might be serious injuries tomorrow.

 

[maxysmummy]

i don't mean to be rude but if you can't afford to neuter one rabbit how are you going to afford to BREED rabbits...