Animal Rights vs. Animal Welfare

[Daenerys]

So, I was reading this thread on another forum about the HSUS and PETA, and they were discussing the differences between animal rights and animal welfare. It got me thinking, a lot, about the differences and where I stood on the issue.

Basically it was said that the difference between the two is that animal welfare is more about our responsibility to properly care for and respect animals, be it our companion animals or wild animals, whereas animal rights claims that people do not have the right to "own" animals as pets, that they should lead free lives and not be forced to be our food or our companions or provide us with fur or anything else.

I see the flawed thinking in "animal rights" people when it comes down to predator and prey. I often see this when it comes to feeding mice to my snakes. People who are "rights-y" tend to be the ones who say I am a horrible person for feeding DEAD AND FROZEN mice to my snakes and that my snakes are terrible creatures and should die. Well, snakes and mice are both animals, and both have to eat. So, does the snake have the right to eat, or does the mouse have the right to live? Should lions not be allowed to eat zebra? Everything has to eat to live, and some animals have to eat meat. Well, there's only one way to do that, and that's to eat another animal.

I like this one person's way of putting it. "Its not the zebra's right to be rescued from the lion, but it is our responsibility for the welfare of the lion to make sure the zebra is there to eat."

We associate rights with law and government. An animal cannot participate in that, therefore they cannot have rights. With rights also comes responsibility, and we do not hold animals responsible for their actions. We also have the right to keep animals as pets, therefore we have a responsibility to their welfare.

So, I'm sure you can see that I am for animal welfare, not animal rights. I think it is our responsibility to make sure that our animals are in a safe environment receiving the proper care and are free from neglect and abuse. I was just wondering how this crowd thinks.

 

[Myia09]

I love all animals..but because I do, I am for the humane treatment of all.
This means getting the proper diet. I don't think large reptiles should be legal; but they are. So they need to be fed the proper diet. That means things I am sure would make some people uspet on here. I wouldn't do it anymore, but if I owned a large snake I would have to.

I also think PETA and what not are on teh wrong track..not everyone is a republican/democrat. So why do they think everyone is going to become vegitarians? People need to think like Temple Grandin...start working to provide humane ways to slaugther..not trying to stop slaughter.

So I am with you on animal welfare.

 

[JadeIcing]

Animal welfare.

 

[Luvmyzoocrew]

I am animal welfare

 

[missyscove]

I remember commenting on this in another thread recently. As an animal science student it's a topic I've done a lot of thinking on and learning about.
In my opinion, people have rights and responsibilities; animals don't. One of our responsibilities as humans, however, is to help our animals lead the most stress and pain free life possible - to keep their welfare in mind.
I'm a strong supporter of animal agriculture - but I've also visited farms and seen how it's done which I feel gives me an advantage in a healthy discussion with others. I can proclaim my love of veal and when someone else comments on how horrible veal growers are, I can say that I've been to one - I've seen how it's done and visiting a veal grower only made me want to eat more veal.
My views on animal welfare have also contributed to my beliefs that banning horse slaughter and things like CA's prop 2 were huge mistakes for the animal agriculture industry here in the US. People don't recognize that even if we're not perfect, we're doing a lot better than say Mexico is when it comes to welfare and outlawing our more humane practices only leads to a worse fate for the animals.

 

[Happi Bun]

I'm for Animal Welfare... However, if someone is for Animal Rights I will not judge them solely because of the label. I try to get to know a person first. That being said, I do often become frustrated by people that group animal welfare with animal rights activists. There is a difference. Regarding the HSUS; I agree with a lot of their campaigns (there end puppy mills campaign for one) and think they do a lot of good. Some things I disagree with though.


Animal Rights-

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]To end all human "exploitation" of animals - this includes, but is not limited to, raising and slaughtering of livestock for human or animal consumption, eating meat, hunting, using animals for any medical or veterinary research, zoos (regardless of how well managed), circuses, rodeos, horseshows, dogshows, animals performing in TV commercials, shows or movies (regardless of how well treated any of the above are), guide-dogs for the blind, police dogs, search & rescue dogs, and the practice of owning pets. [/font]


Animal Welfare-

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]To prevent suffering and cruelty to animals. To provide care and good homes for pets in need. This often includes, but is not limited to,the funding and running of animal shelters (to provide a sanctuary for abandoned, abused, homeless, or unwanted pets, and to place them in good homes where possible, provide painless euthanasia for those that cannot be adopted, and to educate the public about the need for spaying/neutering their pets to prevent more surplus animals ending up in shelters), enforcement of anti-cruelty statutes (where their authority permits), initiating, lobbying for, and monitoring enforcement of legislation to ensure more humane standards of care for livestock, laboratory animals, performing animals, and pets.[/font]

Definition credit goes to http://homepages.sover.net/~lsudlow/ARvsAW.htm

 

[Daenerys]

Happi Bun wrote:

I'm for Animal Welfare... However, if someone is for Animal Rights I will not judge them solely because of the label. I try to get to know a person first.

True, not all the people for animal rights are the exact same. But animal rights...it just doesn't work! You can advocate for it all you want, but there is no way people will give up all of that. Its our way of life to eat meat, to have pets, to use animals in medicine....its just not compatible with our way of life. Besides, the majority of the people who are for animal rights more than likely directly and/or indirectly benefit from any of those things they claim to be against.

Thanks for the more clear definitions of rights and welfare, btw. Took me a while to figure out how to phrase it in the first post as I am not always good at explaining things.

 

[TwistedSerpent]

Actually HSUS is even worse then PETA, they are sugar coated and put out a great media tear jerker menagerie of ads and commercials however what they claim is not their main ambition, its just to suck the money out of the soft hearted so they can continue to fuel their legal battles. Every once in awhile when it becomes an issue they will actually donate a small percentage to a shelter or something but its only to get people off their back. They are a political campaign group that hides behind the false pretense that theyre actually out their getting dirty and helping animals. They are just not as extreme as PETA is in their tacticts.

If anyone is interested here is a great group that keeps an eye on all that the HSUS does - http://www.humanewatch.org/


I keep and breed reptiles, that industry is always getting hit hard and fighting big battles with these activists and groups. Reptiles not being cute and cuddley are an easy first target to get laws passed to ban them, to the point where we have set up our own groups just to help fight these legal and political battles so we can continue to keep and enjoy our hobby. Fact is a lot of people dont care about reptiles, often their fears leading them to support bans, however these animal rights groups wont stop there, its a matter of picking off the lesser known and supported industries first.

Many people supporting animal rights just dont know what its all about, their hearts are in the right places they dont want sufferign and cruelty, but they dont know the extent of what they claim to be for, and where their money is actually going. If anyone here claims to be for animal rights they actually shouldnt be here, keeping rabbits and other animals as pets is cruel.

Take good care of your buns, give back to nature what you take, and dont support this crazy nonsense that anyone can see would cause more harm then good.

 

[Daenerys]

A friend of mine told me a story about when he went into a pet store and bought frozen feeder mice. There was a girl who asked him what he planned on doing with those mice, and he said he was feeding them to his snakes. The girl went off on a rant about how he was going to hell and all his snakes heads should be chopped off.....it really doesn't make sense to me, because snakes are just as much animals as mice are, and these mice were already dead anyways...I suppose because I love and appreciate all animals I just don't understand how people can be all for saving the mice but want to chop the heads off the snakes. I think the snakes are just as cute as the mice! I mean, look at that teeny little face!!!

Newly hatched hateling corn snake! The little round head is just too precious!

Brand new baby ball python! I love the little periscope look!

I swear that is the cutest little forest cobra I have ever seen! And her name is Princess!!! Ahhh I could die from cuteness overload!!!!!!

 

[TwistedSerpent]

People don't realise that a single snake does far less damage then its food that would live if the snake was killed. Of course often those supportive of animal rights are so full of hypocrisies it hurts. "Animal testing is cruel but I need my insulin to live"


I swear it doesn't get much cuter then baby cobras.

 

[Happi Bun]

HSUS does get their hands dirty and work on the front line. They helped the SPCA in our area with a big rescue of nearly 200 dogs. If you think they are just all expensive compaign ads without actually backing it up with physical work then just check out there YouTube channel. Like I said, not everything with HSUS I agree with, but I'm not going to sit and watch those videos and say they aren't doing any good for the welfare of animals.


[flash=320,256]http://www.youtube.com/v/BF3KQ71qp3M[/flash]


[flash=320,256]http://www.youtube.com/v/v_K7lqMuRFQ[/flash]

 

[undergunfire]

I'm more for animal welfare, but I also see many points of animal rights. I don't eat meat and I don't agree with most of the ways animals are raised for food...but I don't bash on people who do eat meat - I just wish they'd get their meat from places where they knew the animals were treated humanely before death (like local farms where they can visit). I also don't like rodeos, circuses, or hunting.

 

[Luvmyzoocrew]

undergunfire wrote:

I'm more for animal welfare, but I also see many points of animal rights. I don't eat meat and I don't agree with most of the ways animals are raised for food...but I don't bash on people who do eat meat - I just wish they'd get their meat from places where they knew the animals were treated humanely before death (like local farms where they can visit). I also don't like rodeos, circuses, or hunting.

I have been thinking about this more and more Amy,I want to be responsible for my meat, and have been trying a little at a time to get away from Factory farming and going with more free range and maybe local farmers who raise thier cattle and pigs for meat. I feel like i have started a little by getting my own chickens so now i know where my Eggs come from,lol

 

[BethM]

Luvmyzoocrew wrote:

undergunfire wrote:

I'm more for animal welfare, but I also see many points of animal rights. I don't eat meat and I don't agree with most of the ways animals are raised for food...but I don't bash on people who do eat meat - I just wish they'd get their meat from places where they knew the animals were treated humanely before death (like local farms where they can visit). I also don't like rodeos, circuses, or hunting.

I have been thinking about this more and more Amy,I want to be responsible for my meat, and have been trying a little at a time to get away from Factory farming and going with more free range and maybe local farmers who raise thier cattle and pigs for meat. I feel like i have started a little by getting my own chickens so now i know where my Eggs come from,lol

I'm with Amy and Fran. I don't eat meat, but wish those who did would find sources of humanely raised animals. The vast majority of food animals out there today are not treated well prior to death. I do still eat some dairy, but make sure most of it (butter, cream, and milk) is from a local dairy that I can go visit any day I want. I am having problems with eggs, as I like them, but don't want to buy mass-produced eggs, but don't know anyone locally with eggs for sale. So I just don't buy them any more.

I am not for animal rights, in that I don't believe chimps should have all the legal rights as humans, but I do believe that chimps have the right to not have their habitat destroyed for petty human reasons. If that makes sense.
So, I guess that puts me in the animal welfare camp.

 

[Myia09]

The problem with "Local farms" and what not is; not only do most of the US population do no live in places where there are local farms;

And local farms can't prouduce enough food for the US consumption. That is why mass producers exsist. That is also why organic, free range meat is about quadruple the price of wal mart. (If not more)

Some organic meat goes as far as $6 per lb; a family of four can't afford that. As onem personI can't afford that.

So I hate to say it; but that isn't a solution at all. :/

 

[Luvmyzoocrew]

BethM wrote:

Luvmyzoocrew wrote:

undergunfire wrote:

I'm more for animal welfare, but I also see many points of animal rights. I don't eat meat and I don't agree with most of the ways animals are raised for food...but I don't bash on people who do eat meat - I just wish they'd get their meat from places where they knew the animals were treated humanely before death (like local farms where they can visit). I also don't like rodeos, circuses, or hunting.

I have been thinking about this more and more Amy,I want to be responsible for my meat, and have been trying a little at a time to get away from Factory farming and going with more free range and maybe local farmers who raise thier cattle and pigs for meat. I feel like i have started a little by getting my own chickens so now i know where my Eggs come from,lol

I'm with Amy and Fran. I don't eat meat, but wish those who did would find sources of humanely raised animals. The vast majority of food animals out there today are not treated well prior to death. I do still eat some dairy, but make sure most of it (butter, cream, and milk) is from a local dairy that I can go visit any day I want. I am having problems with eggs, as I like them, but don't want to buy mass-produced eggs, but don't know anyone locally with eggs for sale. So I just don't buy them any more.

I am not for animal rights, in that I don't believe chimps should have all the legal rights as humans, but I do believe that chimps have the right to not have their habitat destroyed for petty human reasons. If that makes sense.
So, I guess that puts me in the animal welfare camp.

Beth it is ashame you arent close to me you could get some of my eggs :0)

 

[TwistedSerpent]

The youtube video of HSUS is a prime example of what I said about when they get too much negitive press they will put a very small amount of the actual money they get just to take the heat off of them, and of course they advertise it as if they do it often. The amount of money they get if they put it all towards actual shelters and helping animals it would actually make a difference, but they dont, howevery they make huge claims and implications that they do. Their name itself is an example, when people think of humane socity they think of actual shelters, thousands are donated to them based on that alone, too many people think they are an actual shelter.

Unfortunatly with the meat and food business we only ever see the bad examples and we see it over and over again, with many exaggerations and skewed information delivered by these animal rights groups. I can guarentee you most are not like that, most people who deal with livestock on a commercial level and smaller know that if their stock isnt healthy their product wont be. The FDA has extremely strict regulations as well. Many think dairy cows have it rough but in many of these top places its often more like cow spas. Animal activitsts simply overglorify and exaggerate and drill it in to where many people think thats always how it is when in fact its not. Actually PETA has been quoted to say they would rather have animals dead then in captivity or something along the lines, and do actually put down a lot of the animals they get. Search youtube for the Penn and Teller show about them.

Hunting, and the fee's paid for licences and tags has done far far more benefit to our natural land and resources, as well as the simple fact that it helps keep populations healthy. Many places are so overrun with deer and other game that without actually taking some out many are literally starving to death in the winter. They feast in the fields and multiply like crazy, but the land just cant support them all. Plus hunting is probably one of the most humane sources of meat too, the animal lived how it was ment to, wild and unpenned and died very quickly.

Also think of this too, nature isnt humane, predetor and prey as well as natural happenings can be extremely rough. The life we offer them even if we plan on consuming them is a whole nother world and much more kinder.

 

[BethM]

Myia09 wrote:

The problem with "Local farms" and what not is; not only do most of the US population do no live in places where there are local farms;

And local farms can't prouduce enough food for the US consumption. That is why mass producers exsist. That is also why organic, free range meat is about quadruple the price of wal mart. (If not more)

Some organic meat goes as far as $6 per lb; a family of four can't afford that. As onem personI can't afford that.

So I hate to say it; but that isn't a solution at all. :/

It would be more affordable if people ate more realistic amounts of meat. I know people who routinely eat 8-10 oz of meat at dinner. A serving, according to the Food Guide Pyramid, is 2-3 ounces, and you only need 2-3 servings per day. (This is for ALL protein sources, not just meat.) Americans demand low meat prices so they can indulge in unhealthy amounts of meat. Stick to the serving size, and one pound goes a lot farther, making the higher price justifiable.

People used to spend a MUCH higher percentage of their income on food, and I don't think that is a bad thing.

And personally, I don't think people should be living in places where food can't be raised locally. We're not meant to be living there. Other places, food CAN be raised locally, but it's not what we feel like eating, or the mass-producers have gutted the market to make it unaffordable for local operations to survive.

 

[BethM]

Luvmyzoocrew wrote:

Beth it is ashame you arent close to me you could get some of my eggs :0)

I wish I lived near you- I would TOTALLY buy eggs from you.

 

[Myia09]

Hehe me and you beth..always on the opposite sides of things!

Well, I can't control nor can you what people want to eat, and how much. And population, has been rising, so if your comparing what was eaten in the 70's, or even the 80's, it is much different with population increases. So maybe it isn't so much how much per person is eating but per household. This is why I don't supporty PETA..you cant make the population agree 100% on something. It isn't going to happen. So you have to compromise.

And the compromise is regulating large marketers..who actually do a great job and have really stict rules to follow and often do.

Well, wouldn't it be great if the millions of people could live in places like yours? lol..No offense but that isn't realistic. That is why cities are cities..there is a vast amount of people. Not everyone can afford, or want to, live in a rural community, and simply stated, there is now ay to do it. There just isn't enough space in this world for that.

I live near the Mexico border..so there are a LOT of cheap "mexican" meat...that is way cheaper than wal mart. I don't shop there because yes, Mexico doesnt have good humane laws. BUT technically that is a local farmer. But I would say it is a lot worse than shopping at wal mart.

I am sure people used to spend more on food before inflation happend. Before everything became a lot more expensive...and taxes went up.