Advice Please?

[Dashinthezoo]

Yikes...I've been away for too long!

So...we have Dash who was our rescue and we got a little mini rex doe a while back hoping to bond them so Dash would have someone to snuggle with.

;-; Sadly, bonding has NOT been going well. We've had to break up multiple fights, one of which ended with Moonpie (our little doe) going to the vet for a cut in her eyelid (some antibiotics later, she was fine!). Even when we put the cages a foot apart, they try to get through the bars to eat each other. If there's love at first sight, this is true hate.

Dash has been neutered (actually the day we got our doe). Moonpie has not yet been spayed, but that's the plan here soon.

Anyway, someone approached us about taking another rabbit on. I'm not sure though. Its an unneutered male who is 4 years old. He's never been around other rabbits as far as they know, but has been around other animals.

So, a couple questions: Is there still hope for Moonpie and Dash or should I assume they should stay separated? If there is hope for Moonpie and Dash, is there hope for a trio? If not, perhaps a chance for either Moonpie or Dash to bond? Is 4 years old too late to neuter? How well do older rabbits socialize?

And the most important question: Should I just say no?

 

[LakeCondo]

If it were your rabbit, I'd say to go ahead & neuter. Females are spayed at 4 years & older & that's a more difficult operation than neutering males. However, neutering is no guarantee he'll bond with either of the others, so you must consider whether you want 3 rabbits that you have to keep separate. So you'd probably be best off taking one of your current rabbits to a speed-dating session at a rescue/shelter & let him or her pick out a companion.

 

[agnesthelion]

Well, a trio is difficult. I feel like I know a decent amount about bonding and a trio still intimidates me. That's not to say they arent possible, they just offer different challenges and are more prone to spontaneous fighting, even after an apparent bond. In addition, the combination of 2 males/1 female can have issues in the sense that the lone female can bring out fighting/competiveness between the males.

Now, with all that being said, you have a whole different obstacle with your current two so talking about a trio before 2 are bonded, before your doe is spayed and before the potential new male is neutered might be jumping the gun a bit.

As I've always said, I believe buns can't be considered bonded until both are fixed. So if you want a chance for your doe and current buck to bond, she needs to be spayed.

I'd the fights have been as aggressive as you have said, the separating them completely (ie cages in two seperate rooms) might be needed. Which if she is going to be spayed then they couldn't be together anyway so would be a good time to do it. Anyway, rabbits have a good memory about fights. So for them to bond again, they need to "forget" about each other and then bonding from square one on neutral territory would need to happen. There are some theories that any two bunnies can be bonded. The jury is out for me on that. I think I might believe that there are buns out there that truly do hate each other, but sometimes error by human hans can effect bonding. Is that your two? Not sure. I'd have to hear more details about how their dating/bonding went to say for sure. When did they first meet after the bucks neuter? Where? How long? How often were they introduced? How long were they both him before dating? Etc, etc.....

So to repeat....get your doe spayed. Seperate to let her heal. Attempt rebond. If you take the 3rd bun, neuter him. House separately and be aware that a trio may not ever be successful so be ready to keep keep seperate. If keeping seperate isn't an issue, you can get 3rd bun and attempt to bond your doe to him after he is neutered, but again all same issues apply.

Phew. Good luck! Keep us updated!

 

[Blue eyes]

I agree with Lisa and LakeCondo.

Trio are VERY difficult. Having two males as part of a trio is even more difficult. I had two very loving brothers whom I tried to bond with my female. The competition between them over the female caused them to turn on each other.

I'm more concerned, however, with your current two. If they are trying to fight between the bars, it's time to give it a break. Thankfully, because she isn't spayed, there may be hope after she's spayed. I also would suggest keeping them completely out of each other's sight from now until after her spay has healed. When you try again, it will be starting from square one.

As others have said, bunny dates at a rescue is IMO the best way to let your bunny choose a mate. It's possible this third bunny you are considering may get along with your girl after she's spayed. But you may also end up with the same fighting.

Unless you are fine with housing multiple rabbits separately, it sounds like you may be best off saying no to this third bun, getting your girl spayed, and then, if she still won't get along with your current male, consider the bunny dates.

 

[Dashinthezoo]

>.< Sorry, just realized how badly I made myself sound. Currently, Dash and Moonpie are in different rooms and have no contact! We set their cages down next to each other a while back for about 20 minutes before we decided they were stressing each other out too much. Dating started out as they are now, just being in the same house. Dash had just been neutered, so we were being careful with him for the first two weeks. On the start of the third week, we switched their blankets every few days to get used to the scent. At this point, Moonpie was about 12 weeks old. Around about the fifth week (37 days after Dash's neuter), we put them in the rooms next to each other. We put a baby gate up between the rooms and would only let one out at a time, letting them smell the other, but not see each other. After about a week of no signs of stress, we let them both out at the same time and they could see each other through the gate. Mostly they ignored each other, but Dash would every once in a while after laying down, jump up suddenly and stomp his foot. Moonpie would ignore him. After one stomp, he would usually hop off to find something else to do.

I think we really messed up here though. Instead of realizing he was getting stressed, we moved onwards. Also, I think we didn't take into account that they are both very dominant rabbits. The two times we put them together, they got into scuffles over who would mount who. The first time, they chased each other and we decided to put them back in their cages after a few minutes and start again later. Around Christmas, we let them out again together and Moonpie ended up getting hurt from a scuffle - a small cut over her right eye which we took her to the ER vet thinking it needed stitches (an arm and a leg later, we found out it didn't and that we just needed some Metacam and eye ointment if she seemed like she was bothering it). We moved them from the same room and they haven't been around each other since. :/

I should also mention that Dash is extremely attached to my husband and I. He follows us around the house and will groom us given the chance. If we are watching tv, he hops onto the couch and usually falls asleep on us. If we are on the computer, like I am now, he sits on our feet in the case of the laptop and will jump onto the desk or our laps with the desktop. Moonpie seems much more interested in exploring the house when she gets the chance. Then she finds a nice cubby hole (like under our bed or in the cat furniture) and falls asleep there. She never tries to initiate contact with us and is very independent. When we initiate contact, she's fine and enjoys it and will sit with us, but eventually she gets antsy and runs off to find something else to do.

We have a date set for her spay, but the vet wanted to wait until she was bigger. She's just a tiny little girl and he's twitchy about putting rabbits under anesthesia anyway. She hit the magical 4 lbs last month though and the date should be fine.

 

[agnesthelion]

You didn't make yourself sound bad at all

First off, Dash being bonded to you should not affect this in any way. That's exactly how Agnes is to me. I think rabbits are smart enough to know the difference between a human and rabbit, haha, so his relationship with you is seperate from her.

I do think, though, they never had dating in neutral territory (if I'm understanding correctly they were allowed to first meet where they run around, right?) that can be an issue because before they are friends, they will both want to be dominate in the common area. If it's a neutral area, neither one will stake claim over it so it takes tha element out. Not to say they won't try to mount and such but there will be less of a drive to claim said area.

I also think that your doe is now at the age where her hormones are raging. So she is going to be grumpy and react to your buck trying to mount her.

So even with more explanation my advice is still to seperate them completely. Don't let them see each other at all. Let her get spayed and healed and then start bonding again. At this point, from how you are describing things, I think they have built up enough resentment towards each other that the "forget about the other" method is the only way to go.

Good luck!

 

[Dashinthezoo]

I wanted to post an update. The third bun, whose name is Popcorn, needed a home immediately and we relented because we both have "Softie" written across our foreheads. He lives in the spare room and is the most agreeable and sweetest darling. Right now he has his chin resting on my thigh, begging for love.

Dash and Moonpie have gotten no better...We let Moonpie out for exercise one day and she leapt over the barrier, reached into Dash's cage and grabbed his ear while he was napping - fighting through the bars until I dumped a bowl of water on them (about less than 30 seconds...I was washing dishes at the time). Her spay appointment had to be moved back as I lost my job. D:

Anyway, tonight Popcorn and Dash met through a baby gate. Dash and Popcorn touched noses, then Dash dashed away. Popcorn continued to inquire. He is unneutered, but was bonded to a neutered male who died a year or two ago. He seemed very intent on making friends. Dash left poo lining the gate, but didn't try to fight. He also was watching everything Popcorn did so intently that he nearly covered his eyes with his ears. All Popcorn did was sit by the gate or try to get me to pet him. (I was sitting next to the gate on my side with a spray bottle, my husband had a bowl of water.) When we put Dash in his cage, Popcorn stood on his hind legs and leaned against the gate and sniffed after him. o.o Is this what normal bonding is like? They seem almost more interested in each other than Dash and Moonpie ever were.

>.< Feel free to scold us. I know I shouldn't have let them meet but poor Popcorn has seemed almost starved for any attention. I hate leaving him alone all day while I look for a job and my husband is at work.

 

[Troller]

What your endeavoring to do is very difficult, but at least you know this. What's your contingency if things don't work out? Are you ready to house three seperate rabbits? And I know it's a strain on resources but it will make things easier, and a bond truer, if all bunnies are fixed. Also as Lisa mentioned neutral territory is very important for introductions and dates.

 

[agnesthelion]

Well I'm surprised after seeing a fight between Dash and Moonpie you are risking things again. I gave my advice and I still stick by that. Don't introduce rabbits on nonneutral territory and unaltered rabbits generally don't bond. The fact that your new unaltered male was bonded to a neutered male before doesn't mean it will happen again.
I don't believe the standing on hind legs is "normal" to me that sounds like preparation for boxing. All I can say is to be careful as I'd hate to have any bunny get hurt.
Best of luck!

 

[Dashinthezoo]

If things don't work out, they don't work out. We have separate places for everyone.

As for the standing on the hind legs...Popcorn only did that after Dash was taken away. I don't believe it was him preparing to fight. It was well after we took Dash away and put him in his cage. He looked like he was just interested in where my husband was going. He couldn't quite see the cage from where he was next to the gate. So if he was preparing to box, it was with the gate. He kept returning to the gate after Dash had been put away and was just sniffing at the edge of the gate. He never marked or left a trail.

Unfortunately, in a small apartment, Lisa, we don't really have neutral territory. Everyone has their own portion of the house. The living room is the closest to neutral territory, but that's not even right to call it that. Its where everyone has their exercise and play time with my husband and I. So far, Popcorn is more interested in sitting and being petted; Dash plays the 'come-get-me' game and Moonpie will groom herself, then run in a circle, then flop. She also likes to scare the cats. She'll wait until they come up right next to her or sniff her and binky.

 

[agnesthelion]

Neutral territory doesn't have to be a full room. Bathtubs are a very common dating area as well as closets, kitchens, I have even heard of people using trunks of cars.

Best of luck.