About Qingqing in China

[ChinaBun]

I'm the forum lurker who lives in Xi'an, China who has a New Zealand White with a lump on her jaw. I have written here before about this problem and have recieved good advice. A big problem is that there are no rabbit vets in this city, as far as I can tell. Rabbits are not common pets here, that is, they don't live long enough to be common. Peoplethink that my Qingqing ("cheeng cheeng") is so big, when actually they haven't seen a full-sized pet rabbit. The sellers don't teach thechildren how to take care of their new pets, so they die young. I am fortunate that I have the resources of the Internet, and this forum in particular, to help me with raising Qingqing.

After discovering the lump and failing to find a rabbit vet and then getting advice on this site, Qingqing got penicillin shots every other day for about six weeks. I stopped them when it was clear that they weren't helping. I noticed no change in her over the months since she stopped getting the shots. That's not to say that there is no change at all. Since developing the lump ,which I assume is an abscess, she isn't as playful. She rarely binkies and rarely does Bunny 500s on my bed. She lays under the bed sleeping a little more than usual. But . . . she still eats and poops fine and she still likes getting cheeck scratchies. She usually lets me feel the lump. It appears that much of the time it doesn't hurt her. Occasionally she jerks her head away when I am feeling the lump, so it appears that it bothers her then. Judging from her body language, I don't think she is in actual pain, though. When she has a stomach ache, she sits quietly with her feet drawn under her and "meeps" if you try to touch her.

The latest news is that the fur around the lump has fallen off. Since this happened under her dewlap it is hard to notice. When I first saw it, I also noticed that the area looked red and there seemed to be blood or dried blood in places. I put antibiotic ointment on the area for three days in a row. Now the fur is growing back, though I still can see tiny flecks of dried blood. I haven't noticed her scratching that place in particular. It's possible that the bad areas were caused by toenail scratches. She is due for a clipping, but I'm waiting for my good rabbit helper to get back to school from her summer vacation. It's hard for me to catch and clip her myself.

I have two questions for you: 1) Should I try another round of the Penicillin (even though the first round didn't work) or should I try Zithromax? 2) Should I take her to a vet and have pain medicine prescribed to see if that will bring back her old binkying self? However, the vets only know dogs and cats, not rabbits. I don't know if rabbits react to pain medicines the same way dogs and cats do.

Because she is hard to catch, hates to be held, and shakes the whole time she is in her cage going somewhere, I hesitate to take her for more shots or to the vet unless I think it's absolutely necessary. I was going to take her to the vet if the skin problem by her lump wasn't better, but it improved.

So, if you made it all the way to the end, I say thanks for reading and please give me any advice or tell stories that are similar.

Nancy

PS: I read the thread about Tiny, but this seems to be a different case. As far as I can tell, there is no pus leaking out.

 

[Haley]

Im glad to hear shes doing ok. I was just thinking about you guys the other day.

Im starting to wonder if maybe its not an abscess but something else? I cant remember if we went through the possibilities before.

Can you tell us exactly where its located and what it feels like? Any way to get a pic?

 

[iluvmybuns]

Aww she's so pretty!

My buns react well to metacam when they're in pain but I don't know if you guys have it over there. Hopefully someone more experienced in meds will chime in.

Could you just call the vet and see if they will give you the meds without the bunny, seeing as they don't know much about them anyway..?

 

[Bunnicula]

Haley wrote:

Im starting to wonder if maybe its not an abscess but something else? I cant remember if we went through the possibilities before.

Can you tell us exactly where its located and what it feels like? Any way to get a pic?

Any sneezing or wheezing involved? Lumps can be associated with pasteurella.

My vet prescribes metacam as a pain med. We have Holland Lops that weigh 3-4 pounds and usually they get .15 ml of the pain med.

Hope that you can find the help you need for Qingqing. We'll be sending good thoughts your way. ray:

-Mary Ellen

 

[JAK Rabbitry]

She's beautiful. Not your average REW rabbit. Looks almost like a REW Belgian in your avatar.


Sorry I can't offer much advice, I just had to tell you she's a pree rabbit.

-JAK

 

[Pet_Bunny]

ChinaBun wrote:

2) Should I take her to a vet and have pain medicine prescribed to see if that will bring back her old binkying self?

Qingqing is over three years old now. About the same age as Pebbles, who is more laid back now and doesn't binkie like before. Pebbles would prefer to take a slow run around, and then find a place to lay down and sleep.

However, my newly adoptedbunny Bebe, is 4 years old. She is so active, wanting to explore and make mad dashes all over the place. Bebe gets so excitedwhere everything here is new to her,and she has lots of things to do. I don't see her binkie, but she thumps at me if I don't let her out sooner. Over time, Bebe will settle down and won't be as demanding to rule our lives.

 

[slavetoabunny]

I know that Randy has had great results using a combo of Penicillin and Zithromax. He also recommends that this be administered under the care of an experienced vet, but unfortunately you don't have access to one.

I know that he has been very busy with rescues lately, but hopefully he will chime in on this thread and give you some guidance about treating Qingqing.

 

[ChinaBun]

Sorry I haven't answered in a long time. I've had connection problems and well, there's just not a lot to tell. I'm hesitant to start her on more shots, because she hates getting caught and going out so much.

The lump is the size of a large grape and is sometimes sore, judging how she'll move her face when I touch it, and sometimes not sore. Sometimes she sneezes or licks her lips and I wonder if it's bothering her. Sometimes she chews. I had thought that she was chewing cecotropes, but I was watching her once for some time and never saw her get a cecotrope. The area around the lump has lost most of the fur and is a dark pink/rust color. I can't tell if it's blood or not. Actually, some of it might be from eating eggplant. She puts her whole head inside the eggplant when the white part inside is almost gone. I guess the purple skin doesn't taste very good.

This afternoon an American friend is arriving for a visit. She has cats, so she offered to talk to her vet about my rabbit's problem. Here is what she wrote:

===========

Spoke to my vet. He said that penic(can't spell it) isn't the most effective for rabbits. He's getting me some Anafloxin but to continue to use the Penac until you get this new stuff. He recommends opening the wound and cleaning it out. Rabbits have to be gassed to knock them out - so we may need to take a trip to the vet to have them gas the rabbit. Then excise all the ick and clean it with an ointment. I'm working on finding the ointment. Also mentioned that rabbits in captivity need to have their teeth ground down if they don't get lots of chewing to grind them naturally. May need to find some abrasive chew toys for her to prevent this in the future. I'll go to the pet store to check on that. The vet said he would just put in on my cats chart that it wasn't a big deal. Can you get syringes there? He didn't want to chance sending them on in the luggage. If you can't call me and i'll scare up some here. CA

===========

I have learned here that there's one kind of Pen that's good for rabbits. I haven't heard of Anafloxin on here. I'm also not positive that there is any ick to clean on her lump. In addition, it's been advised on here to not have a non-rabbit-savvy vet operate on my bun, as they don't know the right way to knock them out. Finally, I've given Qingqing chew toys in the past, but she won't play with them or chew on them.

I want to tell you that I'm grateful for the responses I've gotten. I'm sorry that I haven't told you that sooner. If you have any comments on my paragraph above, I'd be glad to hear them.

Nancy

 

[seniorcats]

I think the medication is a form of Baytril and used in rabbits and livestock.

Does your rabbit get hay? Hay is good for keeping the back teeth in shape. Since China is a big apple producer, can you get access to any apple branches not sprayed with pesticide?Most bunnies will chew apple wood.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

 

[Pipp]

I will also leave the antibiotic comments for Randy, but I definitely thinkyou've got good advice, there. Draining and cleaning will certainly make it more comfortable for her.

That type of procedure mayalso be done with an injectable anesthetic,Ivory had a post with discussion about that, I'll try and find it and post the link.

Glad to hear from you, Nancy, I was just thinking about you today. :hug1



sas :bunnydance:

 

[Pipp]

Ah, it wasn't Ivory's post about injectables, but she had awesome input.

Here's the thread:

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=28441&forum_id=16&jump_to=369616#p369616

That kind of procedure I think may be done with a sedative? Not sure. But I'm sure Ivory and Randy will have great info as usual.



sas :bunnydance:

 

[tonyshuman]

i don't know anything about this issue, but i just wanted to say that your bunny is beautiful and sounds like a wonderful pet! sending my wishes that you can get her some help...

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Yeah, that's what I was going to add too..... and that her ears are MAGNIFICENT! :hearts:

 

[swanlake]

ok total dork thing and off topic right now but i think its cool that you live in china. in my world studies east class we are learing about china. we are on the dynasties and all that. i just think its awsome the wide varitey of people we have here, ya know rabbit lovers from all around the world. makes me soo happy!:inlove:

i might get to go to japan this summer with my world studies east class, last year they went to china.

ok i am done now

your bunny is beautiful, love the ears!:bunny19hope she gets better!

 

[RAL Rabbitry]

I would not reccomend this if you had a qualified vet but

it sounds like that abcess is ready to open up if the fur is off of it and

it is dark. I would not put the rabbit out to do it. A nick with a sterilized

new razor blade would open it up with barely any discomfort to the rabbit

and you wouldn't have to risk putting her under. The relief she feels from

the pressure being relieved will more than make up for the discomfort of

the cut to open it up. Be prepared for a very thick pus to come out.

Clean it out well the first time with a 50% solution of water and hydrogen

peroxide and put an antibiotic ointment in the hole. Do not let it close up.

Twice a day using a syringe with no needle flush it with warm salt water

and then put more antibiotic ointment in it. Keep doing that until it heals from

the inside out.

Roger

 

[ChinaBun]

Thanks for the advice, encouragement and warm fuzzies given so far! I really appreciate it.

My visitor has arrived and she brought with her six single-use syringes of Enrofloxacin.

I'm scared to death of doing what Roger says, but I'm even more scared of having this done at a vet's office here. It will be cleaner at my home. I also have the bonus of knowing a nursing student who can do this for me, while three Qingqing lovers and I hold her immobile.

What are your suggestions on how and when to use the medicine from the US? I thought that six were not very many.

 

[ChinaBun]

Roger, what do you mean by "clean it out well"? If my friend makes a small nick and lets the pus out, what is it that we clean out? Or do you mean to use the water/hydrogen peroxide solution in a syringe to flush it out?

 

[ChinaBun]

My nursing student friend and I just took a closer look at my bunny. The lump has a hard area that feels like bone, even though it's not close to the jaw. Other parts seem softer.

We tried to look in her mouth to see what we could see, but we couldn't figure out how to get her mouth open!

We have now translated hydrogen peroxide, so we can get it at a nearby drugstore. But what if it's a tumor? Would cutting into a tumor make it worse?

The lump hasn't been x-rayed. Two places didn't have x-ray machines and another said that theirs was broken.

 

[RAL Rabbitry]

A tumor would be a different story. A vet would be needed for that. Usually

an abcess feels soft when it is ready to be lanced or open up by itself.

As far as cleaning is out the puss usually will need to be expressed out of the

abcess because it is very thick and will not drain on its own.

The hydrogen peroxide/water is used to flush the wound and the bubbling

will help clean it out as well. Do not keep using the Hydrogen peroxide after

the first time. It you can find a syringe without a needle to use for flushing it

would be better. I just did this will on a doe with a dewlap abcess a couple of

months ago with no problem and it healed up great with no recurrence.

Good Luck

Roger

 

[ra7751]

Hi Nancy,

This is interesting. Never seen an abscess not respond, at least to some degree, to Pen G. Is there any possibility of getting a x-ray done? It is very possible that the bony stuff you feel is just that. If the abscess gets too bad, it can damage the bone. I took a friend's rabbit that did just that. The bone was destroyed. I also have one now, JoJo...came in a few weeks ago...that has a bony mass that has malformed after an abscess. Shouldn't be a big issue in his case....but you can feel it. I have never heard of the drug you mentioned...anafloxcin. I suspect by the name that it is some form of enrofloxacin which most likely would be ineffective.The real problem here is being unable to get a good culture so you are going to have to "shotgun" some things. Those particular type of drugsonly treat certain types of bacteria. The type of bacteriain most abscesses are called anaerobes. There are basically three types of anaerobes...obligate>this bacteria will die when it comes into contact with oxygen which makes it particularly difficult to culture, faculative>which can use oxygen when it is exposed toit, and aerotolerant>these can survive in oxygen but don't use it for it's functions. If there is still an infection after using the Pen G, I would use Chloramphenicol. This drug carries side effects for the people that are giving it. Some humans, very few, have had some issues when coming into contact with it. We have also used doxycycline at times. As far as opening the abscess to drain it. I feel that is a double edged sword....one of those things that may not be good and may not be bad. Reason would be to open the abscess to relieve pressure and allow it to drain. However, by doing so it opens the door for the infection to move from an isolated area to another and the possibility of getting a piggyback infection in the abscess area. We have never opened an abscess here and have dealt with many.If you do open it, I would flush it with saline and nothing else. And if you do lance it...some have suggested packing it with antibiotic ointment. Again, if you do, try to find an ointment (bunny safe of course)with tetracaine to help with the pain.

I also see you mentioned gassing the rabbit. If there are no vets there that can treat an abscess...I certainly would not allow them to sedate my bun. Sedating a rabbit is no problem....anyone can do it.....but not every vet can do it safely and have the rabbitsurvive the procedure. Isee your friend's vet mentioning penec....I am assuming to be penicillin...is not the most effective with rabbits. That scares me too and I would question his knowledge about rabbits. Penicillin by far provides the broadest spectrum coverage against most pathogens, and is the safest of those drugs to use with a rabbit when used properly. The next step up in coverage would be amoxicillin. WARNING:do not"try" amoxicillin.It has to be properly administered or really bad things will happen. And rabbits in captivity don't generally need to have their teeth ground down. Some do suffer from a misalignment of the teeth called malocclusion. It will allow the teeth to get too long. Most jaw abscesses are caused by the roots of the teeth. And chew toys do little in wearing down the teeth. If theyhave any effect at all, it would be a very minimal effect on the six incisors.The wear is due to the tooth to tooth contact when chewing. That is why hay is so important to the teeth not to mention the gut. It is chewy and works those teeth.

As far as pain meds, if she is in discomfort, yes. Metacam is an anti-inflammatory. However, it should generally not be used for more than 5 days. A narcotic is good to....buprenex is used most around here. Another good choice is Tramadol.

Hope all of this helps.

Randy