Zero was beginning to have digestive upset from the pellets I tried, he was eating two pellets twice a day. This morning his tummy was getting hard and he had a rumble of gas. I really need to stop trying pellets and resign to the fact that he can't have them. Anyway, I gave him a cilantro leaf and it did seem to help his tummy get quiet. He is growing and gaining weight, but because he only eats timothy hay he does not have a lot of muscle in his back and hind quarters, so I am continually being "encouraged" to feed him pellets.
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I wonder if a "lighter" pellet may be better for him?
I notice almost all pellets are those long skinney dense things.
The pellets I feed my guys are like little balls and their quite light and I can easily crush them between my fingers.
I can offer to send you some but I think it can only be purchased in Canada which doesn't help if they work lol
I wouldn't be too concerned about trying to offer him pellets right now until his tummy issues are more under control. The wild domestic rabbits here do just fine on a diet of just grass. If he cant digest the pellets properly they wont do any good even if they don't make him gassy.
How has he been if you offer alfalfa hay?
That's good the Cilantro helped
if we can get his tummy to handle cilantro and then maybe other herbs down the line, he will get a good chunk of vitamins from those. And their easier on the tummy then regular leafy veggies.
I notice almost all pellets are those long skinney dense things.
The pellets I feed my guys are like little balls and their quite light and I can easily crush them between my fingers.
I can offer to send you some but I think it can only be purchased in Canada which doesn't help if they work lol
I wouldn't be too concerned about trying to offer him pellets right now until his tummy issues are more under control. The wild domestic rabbits here do just fine on a diet of just grass. If he cant digest the pellets properly they wont do any good even if they don't make him gassy.
How has he been if you offer alfalfa hay?
That's good the Cilantro helped
if we can get his tummy to handle cilantro and then maybe other herbs down the line, he will get a good chunk of vitamins from those. And their easier on the tummy then regular leafy veggies.He does not tolerate alfalfa at all, pelleted or loose leaf. I really don't mind not feeding him pellets as long as his nutritional needs are met through his hay and hopefully some greens. I am crossing my fingers on the cilantro. It seemed to have helped, the hard spot is already softening. Poor guy is so sick of his belly being handled he is getting quite grumpy about it.
PaGal
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I just wanted to say that you are doing a wonderful job! There are so many people that would not have gone through the trouble or the expense that you have for your bun. He is very lucky to have you! I hope that he can over time eat at least different herbs for both your sakes.
Hopefully those will be the trick for him as they are full of vitamins and have been used as medicine for so very long.
Hopefully those will be the trick for him as they are full of vitamins and have been used as medicine for so very long.
Thank you PaGal, I am a bit hopeful that this Cisapride wean might go better. He is on .5ml once daily at 8pm. This afternoon he has had quite the output of lots of very healthy appearing fecal pellets before getting his daily dose .
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I'm happy the cilantro has not caused an issue yet. That's a good sign. Just take it super slow.
Now all hays, while similar, still offer slightly different vitamin/mineral levels. If we can compare what hes currently eating "timothy" to other hays or items, and find something similar his body may be able to handle that type of change. Hays like Oat and Barley hay may offer more nutrients then timothy or other more grass type hays vs hays that eventually sprout to a grain. Heres a page I saved from my readings for EPSM diets in horses. Gives a breakdown on a few hays for their sugar/starch levels.
http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/arti...ohydrates-in-equine-nutrition-horse-nutrition
While Alfalfa is best for these horses due to its lower NSC levels, and Zero cant handle alfalfa, maybe he can handle something with higher levels like those grain based hays?
Sorry, zeros case here just had me thinking about these hays.
Now all hays, while similar, still offer slightly different vitamin/mineral levels. If we can compare what hes currently eating "timothy" to other hays or items, and find something similar his body may be able to handle that type of change. Hays like Oat and Barley hay may offer more nutrients then timothy or other more grass type hays vs hays that eventually sprout to a grain. Heres a page I saved from my readings for EPSM diets in horses. Gives a breakdown on a few hays for their sugar/starch levels.
http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/arti...ohydrates-in-equine-nutrition-horse-nutrition
While Alfalfa is best for these horses due to its lower NSC levels, and Zero cant handle alfalfa, maybe he can handle something with higher levels like those grain based hays?
Sorry, zeros case here just had me thinking about these hays.
I was looking at Oat hays but I am leary of the NSC levels. He seems to have problems with sugars/ carbohydrates. Have you even been to safergrass.org?
http://www.safergrass.org/pdf/JEVS8-05.pdf
Redmond Rocks makes a mineral lick that will provide additional calcium and trace minerals that might be lacking in his his hay. With horses there really isn't any way to test the efficacy of supplementation via a salt lick. I am assuming it is the same in rabbits as well. Some say yes to salt licks and some say they are not necessary.
http://www.safergrass.org/pdf/JEVS8-05.pdf
Redmond Rocks makes a mineral lick that will provide additional calcium and trace minerals that might be lacking in his his hay. With horses there really isn't any way to test the efficacy of supplementation via a salt lick. I am assuming it is the same in rabbits as well. Some say yes to salt licks and some say they are not necessary.
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Oo thanks I'll be saving that one.
You can certainly offer a mineral lick. Most of our buns would get the salt and minerals needed from pellets. But he would have to actually use it, always worth a shot. I wouldn't offer it right away, would wait until you have his hay/herbs steady then offer it so youll know if its the lick upsetting his tummy rather then the new introduction of the cilantro. Just watch as some bunnys have no self control with their salt licks.
Alfalfa is one of the lower NSC level hays available and Zero not being able to handle that made me think maybe its the opposite for him (which would be bizarre) but alfalfa is also super rich in protein which oat/barley hays aren't...
Hes going to get more protein and calcium for growing from items like Alfalfa or a juvie pellet.
http://www.guinealynx.info/hay_chart.html
Hes not having issues like founder or Epsm... its just what his gut can handle... so its really hard to say what is best for him.
I pass these bunnys that live off the side of the highway in a spot no bigger then 30x70' if that, and all they have to eat is grass and whatever weeds are growing there. If they can grow up big and plump and healthy, I'm sure Zero will do just fine on whatever we can get into him that isn't pellets.
We can try hays that are more substantial then Timothy for bulk and possible change in protein/minerals/calcium (like oat/barley) They may not cause issues because their not as rich in protein, but yes they have more NSC then Alfalfa (win loose?) (being able to switch his hay may help build his tummy better so its not just used to the same thing and gets lazy) Try the salt/mineral rock. Keep a slow herb introduction with Cilantro being number 1. And I think once hes off the meds and his body learns to cope with out them, and builds up its own natural gut flora, he may be able to tolerate other stuff much better.
Sorry, this goes back to that tone thing, I don't have an organized thought process so stuff comes out... like this ... not making much sense at all.
You can certainly offer a mineral lick. Most of our buns would get the salt and minerals needed from pellets. But he would have to actually use it, always worth a shot. I wouldn't offer it right away, would wait until you have his hay/herbs steady then offer it so youll know if its the lick upsetting his tummy rather then the new introduction of the cilantro. Just watch as some bunnys have no self control with their salt licks.
Alfalfa is one of the lower NSC level hays available and Zero not being able to handle that made me think maybe its the opposite for him (which would be bizarre) but alfalfa is also super rich in protein which oat/barley hays aren't...
Hes going to get more protein and calcium for growing from items like Alfalfa or a juvie pellet.
http://www.guinealynx.info/hay_chart.html
Hes not having issues like founder or Epsm... its just what his gut can handle... so its really hard to say what is best for him.
I pass these bunnys that live off the side of the highway in a spot no bigger then 30x70' if that, and all they have to eat is grass and whatever weeds are growing there. If they can grow up big and plump and healthy, I'm sure Zero will do just fine on whatever we can get into him that isn't pellets.
We can try hays that are more substantial then Timothy for bulk and possible change in protein/minerals/calcium (like oat/barley) They may not cause issues because their not as rich in protein, but yes they have more NSC then Alfalfa (win loose?) (being able to switch his hay may help build his tummy better so its not just used to the same thing and gets lazy) Try the salt/mineral rock. Keep a slow herb introduction with Cilantro being number 1. And I think once hes off the meds and his body learns to cope with out them, and builds up its own natural gut flora, he may be able to tolerate other stuff much better.
Sorry, this goes back to that tone thing, I don't have an organized thought process so stuff comes out... like this ... not making much sense at all.
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Bunnylova4eva
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I don't know if you've heard about these or how he would react to them, but Oxbow has a new multivitamin. Maybe if you're concerned with his diet not giving enough balance, you could try those. I haven't used them yet for my bunnies but based off of what I've read, they look good. Thinking about it now there's a digestive support one too. http://www.oxbowanimalhealth.com/products/type/detail?object=8404
As far as neutering and such, maybe it'd be good to wait a bit longer. First off, they could still drop, I know Ripley's took a bit, but also with all his tummy things he's dealt with, maybe it would help to get all those kinks worked out before the GI inevitably slows down after surgery.
Also, have you tried mixing the hay types? This has been recommended to me so many times by my vet, that I finally took his advice and did it. I just buy several types from oxbow (Oat, Orchard Grass, Botanical etc.) and I feel like they're getting different nutrients from the different ones. Also, I think they do eat a lot more hay when there's a mixture because it provided a lot more interest for them as they root through it. Again, I don't know how Zero would handle the new different kinds, so maybe this would be something to try later down the line once his tummy is in better shape just to help add some more nutrients and variety to his diet.
As far as neutering and such, maybe it'd be good to wait a bit longer. First off, they could still drop, I know Ripley's took a bit, but also with all his tummy things he's dealt with, maybe it would help to get all those kinks worked out before the GI inevitably slows down after surgery.
Also, have you tried mixing the hay types? This has been recommended to me so many times by my vet, that I finally took his advice and did it. I just buy several types from oxbow (Oat, Orchard Grass, Botanical etc.) and I feel like they're getting different nutrients from the different ones. Also, I think they do eat a lot more hay when there's a mixture because it provided a lot more interest for them as they root through it. Again, I don't know how Zero would handle the new different kinds, so maybe this would be something to try later down the line once his tummy is in better shape just to help add some more nutrients and variety to his diet.
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Zero was getting a mix of Orchard Grass and Timothy Hay, I looked at the botanical blend but there is really no way to monitor what he would injest that would cause upset if it were to happen. I keep defaulting to Timothy as that seems to be the most tolerated. I feel that his system really needs time to recover before I keep trying to add new things to his diet. He eats large amounts of hay throughout the night then sleeps all day. I know he needs more of a variety of hays but I also worry about him becoming picky. If he were to go off Timothy it would be really bad. For now we are going to stick with Timothy hay and crossing our fingers with the cilantro.
I do have the digestive supplement from Oxbow, Dr K and I have been in email contact since Zero was about four weeks old. He recommended that I wait until he is five months old before I try the Digestive Support tabs. I never asked why, it was a bit off putting though considering it is not on the label. The digestive support tabs smell a lot like the Timothy based Natural Science Pellets by Oxbow which he didn't do well with at all so I imagine the digestive support tabs won't be much different. (I haven't compared ingredients yet).
I had the same concerns about his GI issues with him undergoing any sort of procedure that requires anesthesia (my horse doesn't do well with it either) but it was explained to me that leaving his testis in there if they were to not drop would not be good for his health. Ugh this bunny!
Thank you for your suggestions
I do have the digestive supplement from Oxbow, Dr K and I have been in email contact since Zero was about four weeks old. He recommended that I wait until he is five months old before I try the Digestive Support tabs. I never asked why, it was a bit off putting though considering it is not on the label. The digestive support tabs smell a lot like the Timothy based Natural Science Pellets by Oxbow which he didn't do well with at all so I imagine the digestive support tabs won't be much different. (I haven't compared ingredients yet).
I had the same concerns about his GI issues with him undergoing any sort of procedure that requires anesthesia (my horse doesn't do well with it either) but it was explained to me that leaving his testis in there if they were to not drop would not be good for his health. Ugh this bunny!
Thank you for your suggestions
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Zero needs everything offered really slowly. One strand of a new hay might upset his tummy. But other hays is what we were just discussing
I would stay away from the oxbow vitamins. Their basically a herb x pellet mixture with extra sugar (the digestive one anyway, the multi vitamin is just that with less herb)
I would stay away from the oxbow vitamins. Their basically a herb x pellet mixture with extra sugar (the digestive one anyway, the multi vitamin is just that with less herb)
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I guess it would depends on how much he can handle. My guys get about half a bunch a day (a good handful) among all their other veggies. I think just keep slowly increasing it and see what he can handle. Once he's at the point where he can eat a few leaves a day, you can up how much it gets increased by. His tummy may have more issue with the stem then the leaves. They seem to be more water and remind me more of the structure of lettuce, my guys don't eat the stems unless their super fresh. Never hurts to try later on however But yes its something he can have every day
At least cilantro is cheap... well here anyway. I find it stores longer in the fridge if as soon as I get it home, I take the twist-tie or rubber band off, then wrap it in paper towel, if its really damp, I will spread it out over a small towel for a few hours to try and dry it, otherwise it will start to spoil quicker.
If you notice after you increase it a certain amount and it upsets his tummy, back off how much you offer, but don't totally remove it.
Then when youre happy with how much hes getting every day look into other herbs, Dill, sage, oregano, Thyme, basil, etc. Some are better then others, some may handle better. Different varieties of the plants may handle different then others. With herbs and hay and possibly that salt lick, he should be golden Who needs pellets!
http://www.nutrition-and-you.com/healthy-herbs.html
But yes its something he can have every day At least cilantro is cheap... well here anyway. I find it stores longer in the fridge if as soon as I get it home, I take the twist-tie or rubber band off, then wrap it in paper towel, if its really damp, I will spread it out over a small towel for a few hours to try and dry it, otherwise it will start to spoil quicker.
If you notice after you increase it a certain amount and it upsets his tummy, back off how much you offer, but don't totally remove it.
Then when youre happy with how much hes getting every day look into other herbs, Dill, sage, oregano, Thyme, basil, etc. Some are better then others, some may handle better. Different varieties of the plants may handle different then others. With herbs and hay and possibly that salt lick, he should be golden
Who needs pellets!http://www.nutrition-and-you.com/healthy-herbs.html
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Yay Zero!
Glad to hear his tummy can handle it! Soon he will be a full out Cilantro addict! You wont be able to keep enough in the house
Lets hope the cilantro does its job and helps his tummy get better. Not counting all the vitamins it contains which is just a bonus.
Glad to hear his tummy can handle it! Soon he will be a full out Cilantro addict! You wont be able to keep enough in the house
Lets hope the cilantro does its job and helps his tummy get better. Not counting all the vitamins it contains which is just a bonus.
I bought Zero a second litter box for his little courtyard he stays in over night, I put fresh litter pellets in there and he started nibbling on them. They are edible but caused gas rather quickly. He only grazes on it when it is fresh, I don't blame him it smells really good so my weekend project is building grids to keep him off the litter. This is such a process of elimination :-/
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LOL and the rotten little guy sure isn't helping you figure it all out! Eating his litter box, Eating the litter pellets, what a troublesome guy
I would love him to get to the point that he can be given extra cilantro to (hopefully) help his tummy when he does silly stuff like this.
I would love him to get to the point that he can be given extra cilantro to (hopefully) help his tummy when he does silly stuff like this.
Oh well once he doesn't have access to his litter I can save money on it, he currently uses Ecco- Straw which is not very econimical. It would be great to use Aspen pellets that are 1/4 of the cost! We have three different bags if Oxbow Timothy hay open that he is eating from depending on what hes in the mood for. I am sure I foster some of his neutrotic behaviors LOL. He is a silly silly little guy, he has stolen my heart.
I believe tomorrow Zero has had Cilantro for a week, should I just add a second leaf once daily for a week? The vet has him on a Cisapride taper, it was cut to .2 ml once daily he seems perfect he was running around like a little banshee this morning. It would be amazing if he could live without meds.
I'm glad he's been doing well on one leaf a day. Since he's pretty sensitive, I would perhaps suggest trying two leaves one day, skipping a day, then two the next and if he's fine with that, move him on to every day. Glad to know he's running around well
