Bi-lateral Cryptorchid

[Zeroshero]

Hi ROers, yesterday Zero was at the vet again for his follow up appointment and the vet confirmed my suspicions that both of Zero's testicles haven't descended. He is four months old and there is no sign of them. My question is, if any of you have experience with this type of neuter procedure? I also was curious if the un-descended testicles could be a contributing factor to his continuing GI / gas problems? I knew a gal who's horse repeatedly colicked until they finally located the testicle in his abdomen. I am really concerned with his GI condition him undergoing a long procedure.

 

[Watermelons]

Are we 100% absolutely positive Zero isn't a female? Ive heard of just as many vets mistake the sex of a rabbit as ones that get it right.

There is almost always a reason for bunnys to stasis. Their not feeling well, eating problems, something bad being fed, etc. So it really depends.

 

[Azerane]

It's possible that they still may be going to descend. Bandit was just over four months before his testicles descended. I would say just give it a little more time, he may just be a little slower to develop

Otherwise, like Watermelons suggested, it's possible the vet got it wrong, my vet certainly did. The breeder assured me I had a male, the vet assured me I had a female. The vet was the one that was wrong.

Best of luck though, whatever the case may be.

 

[majorv]

Oh yea, I wouldn't depend on a vet to be assured 100% the sex of a rabbit. I would get an experienced breeder to tell me before I would consider going through with any type of procedure. A vet we took our doe to told us she wasn't pregnant. Guess what, a week later she had kits on the wire because we actually believed him! We know better now.

Assuming he is a buck, it's possible that because of Zero's early issues that his maturing is delayed.

 

[Zeroshero]

She is nearly 100% certain, she checks him every time he is there. I sexed him as a male when he was a little guy. I would stimulate him to go potty and at times well he would show me he was a little boy. I have often wondered if we were both wrong (that was an awkward conversation LOL) I don't know of any rabbit breeders in the area. Would he require an X-ray or ultra sound to find out?

 

[Watermelons]

Can you provide photos here?
Remember to flip him, index and middle finger on either side of genitals, press down while slightly pushing your fingers away from each other. We want to force the genitals to pop up and separate. False answers can be given sometimes by having the genitals pop up but not properly exposed and girls can sometimes be called boys. because were seeing something stick up slightly, but its not being pulled open enough to see its a slit

 

[Zeroshero]

I will try and get a photo this evening. He is sleeping and I don't want to disturb him. Thanks for your help

 

[majorv]

You can also make a boy look like a girl if you push too hard when they are young. Do you see any sign of sacks on either side of the genitals? Usually boys will not have any hair growing on either side as they start to develop.

 

[Zeroshero]

Oh well I decided to wake him up anyway LOL it is awkward to hold him and take the photo.

 

[degrassi]

My bunny was cryptorchid. We waited until 6 months and they still hadn't descended. His procedure was more like a spay then a simple neuter.

 

[Watermelons]

Thanks for the photo
Yeah Ill say boy lol. its definatly a lot more obvious in that photo then some I've seen people post here.

I also think Zero is way to young to say for sure hes a crypt. Bunnys can also retract their testes which can give a fasle impression of them not being there as well, and hey they usually do that when were looking for them!

I think his GI issues are related more to his past, or well, his beginning. Hes had a rough life and was pumped full of antibiotics and other things at such a young age which can cause issues with the GI tract properly developing and getting the proper bacteria among other things in there. Bunnys like all other animals, rely on moms milk for proper nourishment to grow up strong and healthy, not having that can cause issues. He may have issues his entire life because of this. We need to be very careful with rabbits and drugs. Often the dose requires much more research then that of a dog or cat (which is what most vets will dose a rabbit as sadly) due to their metabolism. As well, with antibiotics if their not properly prescribed the animal and bacteria can build up a resistance to the drug, making it much harder for future drugs to do their job. (this also comes into play with the wrong dose/it not being strong enough)

 

[Zeroshero]

Thanks Poor guy, my vet is looking for a healthy donor bunny for some cecals to try and get his gut flora balanced properly. She had some scientific name for it which just made me laugh, I guess it could be off putting to some to hear "I am looking for another rabbits droppings to feed your rabbit LOL". They have Proviable RB on back order I am going to try some of my old vet distributor contacts to see if I can get some. He is currently on a maintenance dose of Cisapride and Simethicone which we are trying to taper to find the lowest dose to manage his motility issues and gas.

 

[Zeroshero]

Thank you Valerie, if he was a female I was even going to opt out of spaying him because of his GI issues, a simple neuter is not as big of a deal.

My Vet reccommended waiting until he is five months old to see if they drop. He doesn't seem to have any excess skin even if he was retracting his testis. I have played the waiting game with colts and they never did drop, hopefully this time it happens. I am starting to regret involving myself in this whole process

 

[Watermelons]

See heres the thing. When we pump him full of antibiotics, we kill good bacteria, including that in his gut. When we pump him full of probiotics, especially from such a young age, were allowing the gut to be lazy. The real deal is much better then what we give them. And by giving them some all the time, were telling the body there's no need to make your own. So when the poor guy is left with out these drugs, his body cant do it on its own, or when it builds up resistance to the drugs being constantly given. Its a never ending circle I think... Another bunnys poop probably wont do much either. Every animal will be slightly different, and the potential to introduce other issues seems higher then what I would be willing to risk since he has so many issues with his GI system all ready.

I don't think his Testicles have anything to do with his GI issues, you have 100 other things here that exactly explain the GI issues with out his little man bits even coming in question, this does however raise another issue.

He almost needs to go cold turkey or slowly weened off EVERYTHING and slowly have his system built back up with no drugs, starting with the easiest to digest items.
Has he been given any natural gas prevention items? Vegetables? Fennel? Cilantro? Peppermint?

 

[Zeroshero]

He eats timothy hay no greens no pellets, I have tried twice to start him on green leaf lettuce 1" squares once a day, increased to twice a day three days later and both times he experienced GI upset. I have stopped most medications except the Cisapride and Simethicone because it is the only thing that works. I stated in my previous post we are trying again to wean him off Cisapride. I have tried this unsuccessfully three times this bunny has tetered on a severe bloat, has chronic reoccuring gas, and a long bout with GI stasis which thankfully I caught early. I am okay with him needing this every day as long as he manages well on it.

I am aware that his un-descended testicles don't have anything to do with his GI imbalance. I stated a case where a horse would chronically colic because an organ was located where it wasnt supposed to be, thus causing chronic abdominal pain and colic.

I know without a doubt if he was not treated with antibiotics he would have died months ago. The first vet he saw made diet changes to the formula I was feeding him, which I believe was detrimental. The damage might already be too much to repair.

I considered trying other veggies however it takes some time for his GI to recover once he experiences upset over continually trying something new. This bunny has been under veterinary care since he was 12 days old, it has been emotionally and financially exhausting perhaps I am being sensitive to the way you have written your statements but I am doing the best I can for him and he is getting the best veterinary care available to him.

 

[Watermelons]

I think youre reading a lot more tone into it then i'm trying to say it with.

Has an ultrasound been discussed? This would allow you to see if the testes are infact up in the abdomen. However ultrasounds are hard to read for most vets that don't do ultrasound for a living. Often x-rays may not be quite clear enough to tell, but could be tried.

What Im thinking is he may be getting more from this vet then he may necessarily need. Which is preventing his body from naturally building up its own defence and own bacteria, etc.... and in turn the longer hes on a drug, the more his body may need in the long run, or may even become immune and not respond at all to.
I don't know this vet, I don't know if their right or wrong in some of these diagnosis. But I have seen some vets that would prescribe meds they deemed absolutely necessary for survival of the animal, when they really weren't. Or 2 totally different approaches to treat the exact same issue. (for example we had 2 vets that when treating constipated cats, one would always say "high fiber!" while the other always swore "Low fiber!", One may prescribe a whack of meds, the other would just say hey switch the food, but the animals always had the same outcome)

I would be more inclined to try and ween him onto Cilantro rather then lettuce. Cilantro has natural anti-gas properties, anit inflammatory, anti-just about everything! Excellent herb and you can easily offer 1 tiny leaf at a time.

 

[Zeroshero]

Thank you for the suggestion I will pick up some Cilantro tonight and see how he does with it. I apologize for reading your advice the wrong way, this has been such a frustrating ordeal. I am following orders and trying to weigh the good advice against the bad and factor in what I know hasn't worked. I have worried about this tiny rabbit all day every day for the last four months, I am feeling a bit haggard.

 

[Watermelons]

I really hope Zeros tummy can handle cilantro. Its fantastic stuff, I HATE the stuff, hate having it in my house, hate the smell, hate touching it, but its so cheap and so good for the buns and they eat it like its bunny crack, I cant not buy it.

There are numerous other herbs/veggies that are supposed to be good for gas, but Cilantro seems to be the top of the pile for all sorts of issues. Plus due to its size, its quite easy to portion. Its not ... "thick" like lettuces.
I would try just half a leaf or so at first, maybe a leaf. Per day for a week or so. Then maybe rather then upping it to twice a day, we up it to a leaf and a half or 2 leafs (really depending how big the leaf is) and see how he does.

It would still be nice to know visually if the vet can locate the testes with x-ray or ultrasound, might provide a better idea weather its in a spot that may be causing issues.
But on the other hand, with all his issues he may be developmentally stunted in that department, which could lead to late "blooming" and they may not descend for awhile yet.

http://drumweaver.hubpages.com/hub/cilantro-chelates
http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/health-benefits-of-cilantro/

Coriander is a plant. People use the seed for medicine.

Coriander is used for digestion problems including upset stomach, loss of appetite, hernia, nausea, diarrhea, bowel spasms, and intestinal gas. It is also used to treat measles, hemorrhoids, toothaches, worms, and joint pain, as well as infections caused by bacteria and fungus.

Some breast-feeding women use coriander to increase milk flow.

In foods, coriander is used as a culinary spice and to prevent food poisoning.

In manufacturing, coriander is used as a flavoring agent in medicines and tobacco and as a fragrance in cosmetics and soaps.

 

[Zeroshero]

I agree, I am not sure that I am onboard with them just opening him up to see where they are at. We haven't discussed the procedure or any pre-surgical exams yet but I have a feeling this one is going to require that I start a savings account! Thank you again

 

[missyscove]

The inguinal canal in rabbits doesn't close like it does in other mammals so they can actually pull their testicles up into their abdomen. If he's not showing any behavioral signs though and with his other health issues, I wouldn't worry about neutering him at this point.