What colour is Leo?

[NZminilops]

I am told that Leo is a broken harlequin, but I was under the impression that two solid parents couldn't produce a broken?

I don't have his papers because I told the breeder off about the condition his coat and nails were when I got him and now she refuses to contact me anymore, but she said the dam was solid orange the the sire was solid harlequin.

If any of you colour savy people could run your eye over these pictures and let me know what to really call his colouring, that would be great.

 

[clarzoo]

There's that cutie, Leo!! What a handsome fella.

My guess is he is a vienna marked harlequin. I think that rather than atri color because he only has white on his forehead and tips of toes(classic vienna markings) and he has long stripes of black rather than spots of black.

Meaning, though both of his parents could have been solid- if they were carrying the vienna gene he could come out looking 'broken'.

 

[NZminilops]

Thanks clarzoo , so does that mean he carries blue eyed (vienna is linked with BEW isn't it?) in him somewhere? I did think it was incorrect to call him a broken, most brokens I've seen at at least 40% white and he has barely any truely white bits on him.

One reason I am asking is someone wants to use him over their fuzzy lop doe before he gets neutered, there are only a couple of harlequin and harlequin carrying lops around in NZ and I've had heaps of people enquiring about selling him to them!

 

[TinysMom]

I guess I don't see the white snip - to me he looks just like a harlequin that isn't well marked (You'd have to seemy Miss Bea to see what I mean - I'll post a picture of her).

Peg

 

[TinysMom]

I just reread your note.

oh my.....the one time I bred Miss Bea to solid orange - yikes! I got some HORRIBLY marked harlequins from it....the worst I've ever had.

Now I take harlequin to tort or fawn or (heaven forbid) - harlequin...

Peg

 

[NZminilops]

Hi TinysMom, thanks for your valuble input .

Harlequins are something quite new to lops here so I don't think many people know what they are doing.

This shows the white snip on his head:

And white paws:

Do these help at all?

 

[TinysMom]

All I can say is - if neither parents were broken...he isn't broken. I have some harlies that have a bit of white on them (or have had them) - but they usually were mismarks and not vienna carriers.

Pam Nock is much better at this than I am....I'm sure she'll take a look at this thread.

Does he have any bluish tint to his eye at all?

I'm leaning more towards him being a mismarked harlie than a sport/vienna marked harlie.

Here's my sport harlie..



Peg

 

[NZminilops]

Hi again, there is no blue to his eyes at all,they are a very solid brown. No hint of any other colouring but plain old brown. They are the same sort of brown as my black otter mini lop.

Thanks so much for the help , I really appreciate it.

 

[clarzoo]

I didn't realize that it was possible to get harlequins with white on them without being vienna carriers. Do you know the genetics behind that, Tinysmom?


If he is a vienna carrier- than he does have a chance of passing BEW onto his offspring if bred to another BEW or vienna carrier.

 

[TinysMom]

I'm probably going to make this far more complicated that it needs to be or should be. But here goes..

if he is a vienna carrier - that means he is Vv. Here is how the genetics go:

Non-vienna rabbit- VV
Vienna Carrier / sport - Vv
BEW - vv

So let's breed a BEW to a sport rabbit. The babies will get a gene from each parent. I'm putting the BEW across the top and the Sport parent down the side to create what is called a "Punnet Square" (which I have probably misspelled).


BEW-vv

Sport

VVvVv



vvvvv

Each rabbit will have a 50% chance of being BEW (vv) and a 50% chance of being a carrier. They will all at least be carriers and show it in some way from what I understand.


Now lets take the sport rabbit and breed it to another sport rabbit.


SportVv

Sport
VVVVv


vVvvv


Each rabbit will have a 25% chance of not carrying the vienna gene, a50% chance of carrying it, and a 25% chance of being a BEW.

(Sorry -BEW = Blue Eyed white).


The big question for this rabbit comes down to - is it a vienna carrier(sport) or is it simply a mismark. Frequently mismarks will be seen asa snip on the nose or on the foot. It can be a teeeny tiny snip - or bigger.

Compared to what I normally see as vienna markings....and considering the fact that this rabbit did not seem to come from BEW or carriers...It end to think it is just a mismark..

Peg

 

[TinysMom]

I mean to add that if the rabbit does carry the vienna gene and is bred to a rabbit that doesn't have the vienna gene....then the offspring have a 25% chance of being sports/vienna carriers and 75% chance of being normal.

 

[NZminilops]

Thanks for all the information, and no I don't know any of his history really. The person I bought him from dropped him off, but didn't remember to bring his papers. Later that evening I got angry when I saw how bad his nails were and when I came across all the matting in his fur and gave her a piece of my mind and now she wont pass them on.

I'm guessing he's just miss marked, it's hard to see from pictures but he has other white parts on his body too. He's such a light orange colour that they are hard to see, but to me they don't seem to go along with any vienna markings I have seen.

I took a closer look at him yesterday and both the front and rear feet are white. There is one black nail on a front paw and the rest are white. On his back near his tail (this bit had to be shaved off) there is a patch that is white and black hairs all mingled together. His chest is white and orange mixed together. His tail is prety much white.

I'm not going to take anyone up on their offers to breed from him as I don't think he's anything to get excited about and his colouring is sowonky .

 

[katt]

i would guess that he is a harley sport. ..rabbits can carry genes for generations before becomming visable. ..the BEW gene and REW are common ones that are hidden for long periods of time. i once bred 2 rabbits together that had no REW on their 3generation pedigree and i ended up with a REW kit. only test breeding would find the answer (if you bred him to a BEW and ended up with a BEWkit, you would know).

another option, that i really don't think applies here (as his harley banding is very noticable) is a booted broken. i have only ever seen them in mini rex, but i suppose it could happen in any breed. it is were there is to much color on a broken. i have been attempting to locate a photo of one, but am having no luck.

one of his parents could have also been a booted broken, but because they are fuzzies, it might be hard to tell that they are in fact a booted broken.

katie

 

[Star Lit Rabbitry]

I guess I'll add my two sence worth here as I've bred the BEW's and have been working on the tri color lops for the last four years now. In my expirence with the BEW's they have to be exhibiting the gene in their eye color to throw it. This mean that if there is no blue in his eyes then he will not throw it. I've had vienna marked bunnies that could not throw BEW as apparently it's one of those genes that always expresses itself.

Now in the tri's and harli's I've found it not common to have a harli that has white paws but it does happen. More often you'll get a magpie lookin tummy with it being completely white mixed with the brindling stripes. With this said I would call him a black/orange harlequin, it doesn't matter how many or little markings they have. I've attached a few pictures of my little ones.
You can look at some more photo's athttp://www.geocities.com/starlitrabbitry2003.

 

[TinysMom]

Oh my....I LOVE that top bunny.......

That isn't fair - showing a harlequin/magpie addict a picture like that...

Peg

 

[NZminilops]

Wow, you all have beautiful rabbits! In particular I liked the rabbit in the second picture, StarLit Rabbitry. A nice little lop like that would cost a pretty penny or two I bet.

I'm very grateful for all the information, you guys have been a huge help.

When I look at Leo he looks like an orange with some black smudges and those white feet and blob on his head, the orange colouring of one of his parents has really shone through strongly on him, that's for sure!

His stomach is totally white bar one black stripe near his rear legs,and he seems to be lighter around the nose and eyes like another orange lop I saw recently. I'm not really sure if 'orange' is the correct termf or the colouring though, I have also seen it called fawn before - and even tan when on a flemish giant!

 

[TinysMom]

He will get the white stomach from having an orange parent...as that is what orange does - along with putting white aroudn the nostril..

Peg

 

[MyBabyBunnies]

TinysMom wrote:

Oh my....I LOVE that top bunny.......

That isn't fair - showing a harlequin/magpie addict a picture like that...

Peg

That's Zoey's mom. Lets just sayI spend a lot of time drooling over those tris/harlis!

 

[Star Lit Rabbitry]

Sorry Peg, I guess we're on the same page though, I adore your lionheads!

 

[TinysMom]

Wait till you see updated photos of my lionlops...oh my!

Oh wait...that means I have to take pictures?

:shock:

Peg