What age do you think kits should leave their mother?

[maxysmummy]

Flash Gordon wrote:

by Dana Krempels, Ph.D.
Unlike most mammals, baby rabbits have a sterile lower intestine until they begin to eat solid food at the age of 3-4 weeks. It is during this time that their intestines are at their most vulnerable: the babies need their mother's milk, which changes pH and provides vital antibodies that help the baby gradually adjust to his changing intestinal environment, to protect them against newly introduced microorganisms. Without mother's milk, a baby starting to eat solid food is highly susceptible to bacterial enteritis (inflammation of the intestinal lining), which can cause fatal diarrhea.
Without mother's antibodies, complex organic compounds and proper pH environment her milk provides to help protect the baby's intestines, these babies are highly susceptible to over-proliferation of foreign bacteria. One of the most common culprits of runny stool in baby rabbits is accidental infection by the common human intestinal bacterium, Escherichia coli. This is transmitted from humans to baby rabbits during handling, since these bacteria are all over us, not just in our intestines. Handling an unweaned infant rabbit without properly washing and disinfecting one's hands is a good way to transmit these opportunistic pathogens. Even a loving kiss on a too-young baby rabbit's lips can kill. Until a young rabbit is at least eight weeks old, she should not be taken from her mother, as mama's milk affords protection against E. coli and other bacteria until the baby's own immune system can handle them.

^^ i'd tend to trust this advice.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

maxysmummy wrote:

Flash Gordon wrote:

by Dana Krempels, Ph.D.
Unlike most mammals, baby rabbits have a sterile lower intestine until they begin to eat solid food at the age of 3-4 weeks. It is during this time that their intestines are at their most vulnerable: the babies need their mother's milk, which changes pH and provides vital antibodies that help the baby gradually adjust to his changing intestinal environment, to protect them against newly introduced microorganisms. Without mother's milk, a baby starting to eat solid food is highly susceptible to bacterial enteritis (inflammation of the intestinal lining), which can cause fatal diarrhea.
Without mother's antibodies, complex organic compounds and proper pH environment her milk provides to help protect the baby's intestines, these babies are highly susceptible to over-proliferation of foreign bacteria. One of the most common culprits of runny stool in baby rabbits is accidental infection by the common human intestinal bacterium, Escherichia coli. This is transmitted from humans to baby rabbits during handling, since these bacteria are all over us, not just in our intestines. Handling an unweaned infant rabbit without properly washing and disinfecting one's hands is a good way to transmit these opportunistic pathogens. Even a loving kiss on a too-young baby rabbit's lips can kill. Until a young rabbit is at least eight weeks old, she should not be taken from her mother, as mama's milk affords protection against E. coli and other bacteria until the baby's own immune system can handle them.

^^ i'd tend to trust this advice.

Interesting article.

There are a few inconsistencies though, since like I said, mother rabbits wean their kits off of milk before the age of 8 weeks. I don't use any special sterile precautions around young rabbits and handle them a lot daily. I haven't lost any kits, despite that.

I definitely don't wean kits early just for the fun of it, and never sell them under the age of 8 weeks so I'm not arguing that or anything. I definitely think they should be kept until 10-12 weeks actually to ensure that they have transitioned well. But I have found that their natural weaning process from milk to pellets happens pretty early on.

 

[maxysmummy]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

maxysmummy wrote:

Flash Gordon wrote:

by Dana Krempels, Ph.D.
Unlike most mammals, baby rabbits have a sterile lower intestine until they begin to eat solid food at the age of 3-4 weeks. It is during this time that their intestines are at their most vulnerable: the babies need their mother's milk, which changes pH and provides vital antibodies that help the baby gradually adjust to his changing intestinal environment, to protect them against newly introduced microorganisms. Without mother's milk, a baby starting to eat solid food is highly susceptible to bacterial enteritis (inflammation of the intestinal lining), which can cause fatal diarrhea.
Without mother's antibodies, complex organic compounds and proper pH environment her milk provides to help protect the baby's intestines, these babies are highly susceptible to over-proliferation of foreign bacteria. One of the most common culprits of runny stool in baby rabbits is accidental infection by the common human intestinal bacterium, Escherichia coli. This is transmitted from humans to baby rabbits during handling, since these bacteria are all over us, not just in our intestines. Handling an unweaned infant rabbit without properly washing and disinfecting one's hands is a good way to transmit these opportunistic pathogens. Even a loving kiss on a too-young baby rabbit's lips can kill. Until a young rabbit is at least eight weeks old, she should not be taken from her mother, as mama's milk affords protection against E. coli and other bacteria until the baby's own immune system can handle them.

^^ i'd tend to trust this advice.

Interesting article.

There are a few inconsistencies though, since like I said, mother rabbits wean their kits off of milk before the age of 8 weeks. I don't use any special sterile precautions around young rabbits and handle them a lot daily. I haven't lost any kits, despite that.

I definitely don't wean kits early just for the fun of it, and never sell them under the age of 8 weeks so I'm not arguing that or anything. I definitely think they should be kept until 10-12 weeks actually to ensure that they have transitioned well. But I have found that their natural weaning process from milk to pellets happens pretty early on.

from what i've read weaning should occur no younger than 6 weeks but the baby still needs to be around the mother till 8? although i'm not sure what the reason is, perhaps for cecals or emotional reasons? are you able to shed some light on this? or is it simply because they are better adjusted for change at 8 weeks?

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

maxysmummy- I think there may still be a little confusion about the term weaning so maybe I can clarify. See, there are two weanings, really. The first is when the mother weans her babies off of her milk. At this point, the babies are not removed from the mother, they still stay with her. But when they try to nurse she runs away, or pushes them out of the way so that they cannot nurse and instead are encouraged to eat solid foods. She does this herself beginning around 3.5-4 weeks.

The weaning that people usually talk about is when you physically remove the babies from their mother. You are right, this ideally does not occur earlier than 6 weeks old. This allows the babies to be weaned off of milk at 4 weeks and then have a 2 week adjustment period before they are removed from their mother. Then, they are not sold until 8 weeks or later to allow one more 2-week adjustment period to living on their own.

Seldom do kits actually stay with their mother until 8 weeks. Even though 8 weeks is the youngest that they are sold, they have usually been living without their mother for about 2 weeks already.

However, in some rare cases, the mother passes away or becomes ill or starts getting aggressive toward the babies. So sometimes, it is necessary to do "emergency weanings" around 4-5 weeks old. Sometimes the kits have trouble, but most of the time, they are just fine with this change when necessary because by that time, they have already stopped eating milk.

In ideal cases, most people remove the kits from the mother at 6 weeks and then can sell them at 8 weeks. Hopefully the above helped to clarify that a bit.

Personally, I like to keep the kits with the mother as long as possible. Even though they can go earlier, I feel as though they benefit from being with mom even when not nursing. So I tend to not remove them from her until 8-12 weeks or sometimes even longer.

 

[woahlookitsme]

Thank you OakRidge for your post! I hope people will read this and it will help clarify some of their opinions. In agreement and addition, it all depends on the mom. You are trying to do whats in her best interest.
Example: I have kits about to be taken from mom at 5weeks old. With 5 babies she seems much more irritated and antsy. She also still feeds them from time to time and with her being on the skinnier side its only what is best for her. The babies will do fine without her at this age. Her past litters are great examples. Of course they'll be housed together so its not like they are totally alone
I also handle all my youngsters and never has one caught Ecoli?

 

[CiaraPatricia]

Yeah, vets and books might say that staying with their mum til 8 weeks is ideal, but it doesn't always work out that way. If they mum is attacking the babies (well chasing them looking like she'll bite them like mine was after 6 weeks) then you kinda have no choice but to remove the babies.

Obviously the babies' well being is important, but so is the mum's.

 

[Flash Gordon]

i thought that when u have a momma whos feeding babies that u should have a shelf so the momma can get away from the babies when she gets sore or tired of feeding..if she has no where to go to get away..its common sense that shes gonna get a little irritated trying to feed nonstop.

 

[Sabine]

I often let the mom go out in the run for long periods during the day and only bring her back at night or a few times during the day when the babies were young. I think that way she gets a break.

 

[woahlookitsme]

Once the babies eyes are open. and being that tans are a very curious breed and love to jump this definitely wouldn't stop the babies from trying to go up there. And i am in no interest of having any more babies with broken legs.

I wish i could let her run around for an hour or two out of the day but since Im in school an hour away from my home this would be my moms duty and her feeding and taking care of all the rabbits and then running the moms would be very tiring for her after a 7-4 job. I would if i lived at home though. I suggest this to anyone who would be able to

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Flash Gordon wrote:

i thought that when u have a momma whos feeding babies that u should have a shelf so the momma can get away from the babies when she gets sore or tired of feeding..if she has no where to go to get away..its common sense that shes gonna get a little irritated trying to feed nonstop.

The mother doesn't generally get aggressive because she is irritated with the babies. It's because of the natural weaning process that I was talking about. The mother will naturally start nipping at/pushing away the babies to wean them from her milk and move them onto solid food.

Most breeders do provide an area where she can get away from the babies under normal conditions, like you said.

In the cases where breeders need to wean the babies early, it is simply because the mother has either become ill or is just a bad mother. Sometimes they will get temperamental and start mounting the babies or things like that. In that case, it's not irritation, it's just hormones.

 

[Flash Gordon]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

The mother doesn't generally get aggressive because she is irritated with the babies. It's because of the natural weaning process that I was talking about. The mother will naturally start nipping at/pushing away the babies to wean them from her milk and move them onto solid food.

how do u know this ?
.
ive watched the domestic rabbits for months at a park by me..
they dont stay with the babies at all,,,the momma is always away from them....they feed them twice a day ..as u prob know........but they fed them wayyy past 8 weeks.
why ??

 

[woahlookitsme]

I do not mean to sound rude in any of this reply Sorry if it seems like that.

Wild or rabbits in parks do not go by the nests because they do not want to show predators where the babies are. That would be absurd. This is also why bunny mommas feed in the wee hours of the morning and just before dark. Most predators are nocturnal and come out at night. So feeding at these times the momma can hide herself and her babies will be full and happy so they can stay quiet and safe.
Mommas naturally push the babies away. The babies have to grow up sometime they cant always depend on the momma. OakRidge has done a good job at explaining this process And i agree with everything she has said.
Being a breeder you understand these processes and its hard trying to explain it unless you've experienced it. All the reasons bunnies do the things they do is in order to survive. That's what natures about. And just like with dogs some mommas don't want or get tired of pushing the babies away so they just let them nurse. Of course it isn't healthy for the mom and certainly not for the babies (they need to learn to provide for themselves!) but if you're in a confined area there's only so many times you can say no. This is why we take them away at 8weeks or sometimes even 6weeks. But of course Every mom is different and i havent ever heard of a rabbit still feeding after 8weeks, if anything wild rabbits would leave the babies as early as possible. Maybe the domestic rabbits in the park aren't a good sample to get opinions from.

Like i said if you don't breed rabbits sometimes you wont fully get this whole concept.

 

[Flash Gordon]

ur not being rude at all..i just wanted to know HOW you know these things...but ur saying u just KNOW if u breed?....
im thinking id sway more towards facts...rather then hunches. im not trying to be rude either

i do know WHY the momma stays away from the babies when they are in the wild...my point is ..if the babies arent in the mommas face 24/7 then the momma feeds even longer then 8 weeks..

 

[Sabine]

I am just wondering about those (domestic?)rabbits in the park.... How do we know they feed their young way after 8 weeks? Do they do it in public?
My first pet rabbit had an accidental litter under our shed and since she was allowed to free roam the garden we never knew she had babies until they appeared from under the shed at a few weeks of age. I would have never seen her nursing her litter and she did stop nursing them at around 5-6 weeks although she had plenty of space. Also my brood does are very discreet about nursing. It is hard to tell if they are still nursing or not once the babies are around 5 weeks.

 

[jcottonl02]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

But when they try to nurse she runs away, or pushes them out of the way so that they cannot nurse and instead are encouraged to eat solid foods. She does this herself beginning around 3.5-4 weeks.

Loool my family breeds yorkshire terrier pups, and to see, at around 5 weeks or so, Lucy (the mother) streaaaking across the room desperate to get away and not nurse the puppies, and being immediately followed by this really fast patter of teeny feet followed by some bounding puppies, it's SO funny.

And I never understood why- but I think you have just explained it! - it's natural!

Jen

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Flash Gordon wrote:

ur not being rude at all..i just wanted to know HOW you know these things...but ur saying u just KNOW if u breed?....
im thinking id sway more towards facts...rather then hunches. im not trying to be rude either

Nah, it's not necessarily an innate quality of breeders. Or a hunch.

My first domestic rabbit litter was born in either 2002 or 2003 (seems so long ago now!), and I have had several litters a year ever since. You learn these things by observing the rabbits over a long period of time. You can find a lot of information on websites or in textbooks and consider it fact simply because it is in print and by otherwise knowledgeable sources (vets, for example). But there is a big discrepancy between how scholars observe or know rabbits, since their work is done in the field or at a distance. I'm right in my rabbit's community everyday, feeding, watering, cleaning, playing with them. I have known many of them since they were born and know each one on an individual level. When you observe rabbits this way (which I'm sure you know by having pets), you learn SO much more about them. Many of the things I have learned have been learned through having rabbits for about 10 years now. Trust me, I've read every website, every textbook, and every publication available to me. They all say the same thing and are a great overview. But that information pales in comparison to what I've observed myself over so many years of daily interaction with the bun buns.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

jcottonl02 wrote:

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

But when they try to nurse she runs away, or pushes them out of the way so that they cannot nurse and instead are encouraged to eat solid foods. She does this herself beginning around 3.5-4 weeks.

Loool my family breeds yorkshire terrier pups, and to see, at around 5 weeks or so, Lucy (the mother) streaaaking across the room desperate to get away and not nurse the puppies, and being immediately followed by this really fast patter of teeny feet followed by some bounding puppies, it's SO funny.

And I never understood why- but I think you have just explained it! - it's natural!

Jen

LOL! Yeah, it's kind of sad to see the poor buns waddling after momma for more! So cute! I bet the Yorkies are such precious little pups...they are even cute as adults. <3

 

[woahlookitsme]

lol about the yorkies! I can only imagine what that would look like

And thank you OakRidge for explaining it better than i ever could

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Thanks for your help too, whoalookitsme! I understand that certain aspects of breeding can be difficult to "get" when you're not really involved in that part of the bunny world. I think we explained well together though, not just me.

 

[CiaraPatricia]

Flash Gordon wrote:

i thought that when u have a momma whos feeding babies that u should have a shelf so the momma can get away from the babies when she gets sore or tired of feeding..if she has no where to go to get away..its common sense that shes gonna get a little irritated trying to feed nonstop.

By about 6 weeks baby bunnies are quite big and can jump on shelves too! I never provided a shelf, but they have a little house about 2 foot high that they all jump on, so the mom can't get away from them. If it was any higher then I'd be scared of the babies hurting themselves falling off . . . small baby animals can jump surprisingly high sometimes!

But they don't try to nurse all the time and annoy her, they just hop around and do their own thing, but she still tries to chase them off. I think it's kinda natural, her being "cruel to be kind" to tell them to go live their own lives.

When I separated my baby buns before, when the mom was trying to chase them off, I also had to separate two babies from the other babies, cos they were being bullies! So when I sold one of the bullies, I put the other bully back in with her mom and the mom was fine with just having one baby. So I think part of her problem with them, was just having too many babies around and them draining her. She also was fine living with her baby in another litter that I kept with her for a few months (though she wasn't feeding that baby anymore).



I don't know too much about wild rabbits (know some) but I imagine they are able to survive on their own (in the herd but independant) quite early as they just eat grass, etc. But animals like cats or dogs would still need their mother for much longer in the wild, since they can't hunt at 8 weeks. So it makes sense that rabbits might stop feeding their babies a little earlier.