Veggies versus Pellets

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Marietta

Marietta

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2007
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Location
Athens, , Greece
Dear all,

Back in 2000, when I was a new and totally ignorant bunny mom,I'd searched all over the web for nutrition advices, among many other issues. Everybody (or, at least, the vast majority) seemed to value the diet proposed by HRS, i.e. unlimited hay, moderate pellets (preferrably timothy pellets, which we don't have in Greece where I live, anyway...) and an abundantvariety of over 3 veggies per day. So, since this wasTHE diet, this is what I've also followed up to this day.

However, most recently I've seenthe above diet been heavily questioned, at least at one internet group. There is a debate on if veggies as a primary diet option (along with hay, of course) are beneficial or detrimental to a rabbit's health, compared to a hay + pellet diet with veggies only as sporadic treats, which seems to be the new proposal in rabbit diet.

This controversy has put me in doubts, for the first time in 7 years and I started wandering ifI'm feeding my bunny in thecorrect way or not. In our particular case I also have an added dilemma, since my bunny, Vitto,being a dwarf hotot, has a genetic predespositionfor the megacolon syndrome (he actuallyexperiencedhis firstsevere GI stasis incident on September-it was dreadful for both of us!). So, this means that he should be well hydrated at all times (i.e. the daily addition of veggies in his diet would produce an extra amount of water, so I guess it's necessary), but, at the same time, a good amount of pellets per day (I provide 1/4 of a cup for Vitto being 1,070 kgr.) is also needed,because when he got ill he lost 230 grams and he has to get them back, as he's currentlyleaning more towards the skinny side. On the other hand, I've also read that for GI stasis-prone bunnies pellets should be given with caution, as if they eat a lot of pellets their stomach gets filled and then they neglect their hay, which is a "must".

I love my bunny very much, as all bunny parents do, I've read A LOT of material on this subjectand always buy him the fresher andhealthiest food there is (NEVER sugar drops, candy bars or other junk food), to make him healthy and happy. But now I'm not sure anymore if I'm doing the right thing for his nutrition or not...

I'd love to hear about your views and practice on this issue.

Thanks a lot / Marietta


 
Hi Marietta,

We have quitea population of rabbits here. Their primary diet is hay and it is fed in unlimited quantities. We feed a variety of grass hays. This allows for a more natural foraging type activity. The unlimited hay helps to keep a healthy GI tract as a rabbit's gut is specialized for low protein and high fiber. Offering lots of hay also keeps the molars worn down. Contrary to popular belief, to keep dental growth in check, it's not how hard something is...it is how chewy it is since it is the tooth to tooth contact that actully wears the teeth down. Different styles of hay also require different chewing mechanics which will work the teeth in different ways. We feed a very limited amount of pellets. Our pellet ration is based strictly on maintaining weight and conditioning. One of our Flemish (nearly 30 pounds now) gets about 1/8 cup pellets per day. One of our female dwarfs gets 12 pellets per day. We have a senior Holland Lop that gets unlimited pellets. And we have some that get hay only to control their weight. For the most part, pellets have much more protein than a rabbit's gut was designed to handle. Too much protein and other high calorie stuff makes too much bunny....and extra fat places lots of stress on the organs especially the liver. We offer leafy veggies a couple of times a week as a treat. But to summarize our feeding protocols....limited pellets to maintain individual weight and conditioning, unlimited grass hays and the regular limited greens. We do not offer treats. You will see all sorts of guidelines from lots of sources....my suggestion is to use them as such....a starting point and offer you rabbits a diet like we do....use pellets to maintain the weight and conditioning.

Randy
 
FWIW, Hershey LOVES his veggies, but is lukewarm about hay and pellets. His first choice is veggies, then pellets, then hay, but he eats mostly veggies. I have all three available at all times. I asked my vet about this, and he said that was fine as he has no weight or other health problems.

I think it's like people, the same diet isn't the best diet for all people.
 
I think it really depends on the rabbit. Some don't do well on veggies, they get diarrhea issues no matter how slowly a veggie was introduced. Others don't do well on pellets. Both of my dwarf hotot girls (RIP Sprite, to GI stasis) did better on a good helping of veggies and only a really small amount of pellets. Fey gets about 2 tablespoons of pellets a day and maybe 2-2.5 cups of green leafy veggies, plus tons of hay. "Doing better" for Fey means their poop is more evenly sized and shaped. Chronic megacolon wonky poop. They also needed a low protein diet, no alfalfa hay or pellets for them and I have to be careful with high protein veggies like pea leaves. That made wonky fecals and loose or even runny cecal poops. But I don't cut out pellets completely because I feel they provide some balanced nutrition in case I can't provide enough variety in their veggies. Winter here is long and cold, the garden is buried in snow, and there isn't much choice for veggies in the grocery stores.

Oh, and FYI Fey has trouble keeping weight on. She's always been a skinny bun. So a few months ago I started adding a little bit of flax seeds and sunflower seeds (1/4 teaspoon of the mix daily) and it does help her without causing noticable problems.

How old is Vitto? If you've had him all these 7 years with only one recent GI problem then you're doing really good. Fey and Sprite have had issues since I first rescued them when they were 1.5 years old. Sprite died of an extremely bad stasis event in September, just two years after her rescue. She had always been the more sensitive one.
 
I'm terribly sorry for Sprite and extend all my sympathy to you. It's awfully devastating to loose someone you love. I understand what you must have gone through, since GI stasis nearly killed my Vitto last September, during a heavy shed. Having passed 14 days (!) without pooping, I really thought he wouldn't make it. I was desperate, didn't know what else to do, though I'd followed most of the GI stasis treatment protocol and had him X-rayed (no blockage), I'd seen no improvement till the point that, after Mrs. D. Krempels' valuable advice, I additionally administered 5 ml lactulose and that was it: within 5 minutes he produced a huge (3,5 cm X 2 cm!!!) hardened mass of hair mixed with mushed pellets and went immediately back to his normal habits of eating, drinking and pooping.

My Vitto is 2-yro, since 2000 I had another bunny, Pepe, a mixed breed (big guy, abt 10 pounds), whom I regretably lost over pasteurella (transmitted at birth) absesses 3 years ago at the age of 5. In regard to dwarf hotots' weight, and as far as the megacolon syndrom is concerned, in addition to the genetic lack of ganglia in the colon, which makes it susceptible to stasis or complete shutting down, they also suffer from misabsorption of sodium, which further leads to the disability to wholly absorb the nutritional elements of their food. I guess this is the reason why they are skinnier, unless they get fed bigger quantities of pellets. Vitto is now 2.4 pounds and I think he needs about 0.6 of a pound more, but he doesn't gain weight easily, you know how dwarf hotots are, highly energetic, running and climbing all the time. I never faced diarrhea problems either with feeding veggies, what I mainly provide during winter is wild chicory, dandelion, radicchio and dill, limited parsley and dark leaf lettuce. Having read the replies of the most experienced Members that kindly answered my post, I experimented by limiting a bit the veggies, which was a smart move, as my Vitto started eating more hay (which is always a third choice after pellets and veggies...he's so picky and spoilt rotten!). Thank you, guys, for your tips!

Do you think that abt. 1/4 of a cup of low protein/low calcium/high fible pellets (they're manufactured in Belgium, they're called "Cuni Complete", guess they're not imported in the States) is too much for a 2,4-pound dwarf hotot?

Marietta
 
Oups, sorry about my last post being repetedly sent. Upon sending the message, I was abruptly disconnected and when trying again, it was sent 3 times. Dear Moderators, please delete the repetitions!
 
My guys get about that amount of pellets (they are dwafrs and about the same weight as yours). Mine hardly ever get fresh stuff, they only get it as a treat. I am very wary of giving more. We've never had a gas problem here in 20 years, so even though it might not be how everyone else does it, it works for us, lol.

They also have unlimited hay or a variety of types. I give them three or four lots of fresh hay a day and they love it. I spread it out from the pellets, which they get in the morning, and any treats which they get at tea time so that sproadically through the day they are getting knew fresh hay and their hay intake has increased dramatically.

Good luck with experimenting with your buns food,I hope you find a combo that works for you both.
 
I see it as the same thing as a child's diet. You'll get the same main idea of a healthy diet, but every adult is going to tell you something different that is "the best way" to feed them.

My buns get unlimited hay and pellets and veggies once every couple days. They're not big pellet eaters so it's mostly just hay and some veggies they're getting. As long as they're healthy, I'm not going to bother with limiting their pellets.
 
Could you post the nutritional info for your pellets? I'm feeding Oxbow Bunny Basics/T, which has 14% protein, 25-29% fiber, and 1.5% fat. Fey and Sprite's last owner fed them some really cheap alfalfa pellets (16% protein and not much fiber) and their poops were, well, absolutely disgusting.

1/4 cup is probably ok, although if he's not eating much hay you could reduce it a bit. Hay is THE most important thing. How is his poop when he is feeling "normal?" Is it pretty round and all around the same size? I knew when Fey and Sprite were feeling off because their poops would get more oblong or lumpy and would have more difference in sizes. Even in the same pile they could range from tiny speck to big monster poops. I was able to keep them the most normal by reducing the pellets to 2 tablespoons a day, although obviously each bunny is going to be different. Fey weighs about 3.5 lbs and Sprite weighed 2.5 lbs.
 
Hi there!

The pellets' ingredient table is as follows: Categories of ingredients: derivatives of vegetable origin, cereals,vegetables (min. 10%), vegetable protein extracts, seeds, minerals, FOS, MOS lecithin (0.2%), yucca extract, marigold extract. Contents: 15% crude protein, 3% crude fat, 20% crude fibre, 8% crude ash, 0.9% calcium, 0.6% phosphorus. Additives/kg: 10 mg copper-cupric(II) sulfate, 10,000 I.U. vitamin A, 1,500 I.U. vitamin D3, 30 mg vitamin E, 100 mg vitamin C.

In regard to his poop, they're always round-shaped or even in sizes, as he has megacolon, which makes him produce bigger and more oval-shaped poops sometimes. His weight is abt. 2.4 pounds. I also wanted to mention that the above pellets have recently been introduced to him, because they've just been imported in Greece. They are far better than any other brand available here (they're not many selections anyway, and all apart from 2 pelletbrands are not whole pellets, but this seed and corn and dried carrot and dried fruit garbage stuff, which I've never let him touch. Does anybody know what this FOS and MOS stands for?

Marietta





 
FOS stands for FructoOligoSaccharides, used as both an artificial sweetener and a food supplement /prebiotic supplement. MOS are a different kind of oligosaccharides: Mannan-oligosaccharides.

Following is a definition from http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com

Fructooligosaccharides (FOS) also sometimes called oligofructose or oligofructan, is a class of oligosaccharides used as an artificial or alternative sweetener. FOS use emerged in the 1980s in response to consumer demand for healthier and calorie-reduced foods. The term oligosaccharide refers to a short chain of sugar molecules (in the case of FOS, fructose molecules). Oligo means few, and saccharide means sugar.

FOS is extracted from fruits and vegetables like bananas, onions, chicory root, garlic, asparagus, barley, wheat, jícama, and tomatoes. The Jerusalem Artichoke and its relative, yacón have been found to have the highest concentrations of FOS of cultured plants. Health Benefits FOS has been a popular dietary supplement in Japan for many years and is now becoming increasingly popular in Western cultures for its prebiotic effects. FOS serves as a substrate for many bacterial species in the large intestine, increasing the overall Gastrointestinal Tract (GI Tract) health. It has also been touted as a supplement for preventing yeast infections.

Mannan-oligosaccharides (MOS) are widely used in animal feed to encourage gastrointestinal health and performance. They are normally obtained from the yeast cell walls of Saccharomyces cerevisiae.
 Therapeutic effects When oligosaccharides are consumed, the undigested portion serves as food for the intestinal microflora. Depending on the type of oligosaccharide, different bacterial groups are stimulated or suppressed.

Clinical studies have shown that administering FOS, GOS, or inulin can increase the number of these friendly bacteria in the colon while simultaneously reducing the population of harmful bacteria.

Other benefits noted with FOS, GOS, or inulin supplementation include increased production of beneficial short-chain fatty acids such as butyrate, increased absorption of calcium and magnesium, and improved elimination of toxic compounds.

FOS and inulin are found naturally in Jerusalem artichoke, burdock, chicory, leeks, onions, and asparagus. FOS products derived from chicory root contain significant quantities of inulin, a fiber widely distributed in fruits, vegetables and plants. Inulin is a significant part of the daily diet of most of the world’s population. FOS can also be synthesized by enzymes of the fungus Aspergillus niger acting on sucrose.


 
Wow, Hazel-mom! I'm extremely impressed! It must have taken you a lot of time to find what these acronymes stand for! I didn't mean to take your time like this, I just thought that FOS and MOS could be chemical additives detrimental to the bunnies' health (if so, I'd definetely change to another brand), however, to the contrary, they prove to be beneficial dietary supplements.

I thank you so much for clarifying this and also for the big trouble you got into in searching what these mean! It really was extremely interesting and enlighting.

Marietta
 
No problem at all Marietta, took me all of 10 minutes or so :). If you know where to look and in what direction, you can find things pretty quick :). Besides, I love researching things.
Also, my husband is a chemist, he works at the Univ, and has lots of connections at the Biology department too. So if I'm really stuck finding things, I know where to go :D.
 
Well, Hazel-Mom, it really takes a good knowledge of chemistry to write the analysis you were so kind to take the time and forward to me. Thank you so much, again!

You know what your post made me think? That I'm very lucky I got to be a member in this wonderful forum, because here there are kind and warm people like yourself, who really care aboutother peopleand their problems and they are willing to sacrifice valuabletime from the million of things theyhave to do in their everyday life, in order to provide information and, even more, support to somebody living in a foreign country hundreds of thousands of miles away, whom they don't know in person, but whom they still are willing to help, as if he/she were a close friend. This is so comforting and it makes you feel you're not alone, especially during times of trouble.

I must say that I'm a member in 2 more bunny groups, however RO is the onlyforum I felt like posting right from day one, because here everybody is so friendly and caring, nobody is going to attack or reprimand you, because, to their opinion, you e.g. did something wrong in the process of facing a health problem or be ironical with the way you write, because you're not a native English-speaking person orbully you, becausethey simply disagree with what you say or be offensive just for the sake of a good public fight! In RO one feels so comfortable, as he/she only has friends and fellow bunny-lovers and not competitors in rabbit knowledge.To my opinion,it's very touchingto I read messages of members saying that "well, I can't help you with my knowledge on the problem you're facing, I don't have any, but I want you to know I'm thinking about you and your bunny, I send you my wishes and loving vibes", etc.

This is how a support group should be like!!!

So, thank you, guys, for being out there for each and every one of us!!!

Marietta



 
I know I'm not a part of this conversation, but I'm SO glad that you feel so good about being here.

This is supposed to be a place where everyone is welcome, and everyone can be helped and can help (whatever they choose), and from the sounds of it, it is, I know that I think it is.

I'm really glad you found us, both for your sake, your buns, and also ours because by posting threads like this and asking such pertinent questions you are also helping others.

I'm so glad you like it here :)
 
Flashy, Hi!

Everybody here is a part of this conversation and everybody is welcome to share his/her opinion, since helping out and giving to othersinvolves all of us, members. I just felt Ireally needed to point out how special you, peoplein RO, are!!!!

Thanks foryour kind thoughts, Flashy!

Marietta
 
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