Tumours & Bladder Stones on X-Ray :(

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BunnieRosanna

BunnieRosanna

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Aug 27, 2008
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Location
Coquitlam, British Columbia, Canada
Our female rex Lara has really been through it this weekend....threeseperate health issues here to talk about!

LastThursday night we noticed her over-grooming on one side of her tummy, underneath. I picked her up and checked and she had pulled out her own fur, and it was bleeding andred raw....either a mite or irritation for her to cause this or,the area near to where we have noticed this lump under her skin (and have been keeping an eye on it for months).

We couldn't do much that night except for try and get her into the vets on the Friday morning. In the morning, the pain and stress of the wound must have got to her and she was slumped and in a lot of pain, vibrating and shivering. We couldn't get her to our local vet which is Eagle Ridge in Port Moody, BC they had no appointments and that angered us as it was an emergency, she was in a bad way and was not eating and still in a lot of pain. So we had to go half an hour toDewdney Animal Hospital in Maple Ridge, BC.

On a routine x-ray, we were devastated to learn she has three tumours in her body (one in or on her lungs) and, bladder stones! the tumours might probably be cancerous but might bebenign, we don't know for sure, they could have been there for years. The vets saysthere is nothing they can do, it is all about quality of life now. We're just so devastated.

We feel so bad for Harrell,her boyfriend,as he might loose his mate. She's given no signs she's been in pain due to cancer or anything, yes we have issues every now and again with her getting gas and you never know that could be from underlying pain.

Lara is now back to her normal self, eating and pooping normally but we have to keep her scabbed area cleanand have been provided with Panolog, then it's coveredto stoplicking. We still don't know what made her do that.

We don't know what these tumours or bladder stones are going to do for her life span. This has come too soon, we thought she's have many many years ahead and she still might, who knows. We treat every day as if it is the last anyway...

Has anyone comeacross bladder stones before and what would you say would be the best option to treat??

The tumors - I don't think they can do anything :(It's a case of keeping an eye on her overall health and treat as and when. We're devastated....

Dr Walton had prescribed two types of antibiotics (Baytril & Flagyl), plus pain med injections AND cisapride.

In the end we have not given the antibiotics and based on research I have done, I don't believe it will help her with her appetite and I'm personally not a fan of them, especially in double loads!! Lara's gut is super sensitive and antibiotics can upset the GI tract & natural flora in the gut.

For the wound, it is now healing to a scab. I've done lots of research on Panolog and as long as you don't allow animals to digest it's anti-itch, anti-inflammatory and anti-bacterial.

Lara is basically herself now, eating, pooping andbinkying for food. She is not in pain anymore...if anyone has gone through any one of these issues on tumors (any way of knowing life span, issues etc...) or bladder stones...or this itching and biting...
 
Poor girl. I also would not use the cisapride because it is a gut motility drug and you said she's already sensitive. It can be detrimental and I don't know why the vet prescribed it in the first place as long as she's still been pooping.

I have a few more questions for you: how old is she? Is she spayed? Did the vet say what the antibiotics were for? Did they take a urine sample and/or blood sample to analyze?

A few questions that you may want to ask the vet: Are you sure there's nothing that can be done about the tumors? Abdominal surgery is not easy, and lung surgery is also probably not easy either. However, the tumors could be one of a number of things, including cancer yes, but also including small pockets of infection (abscesses). These usually don't form very deep in the body cavity, so if the lump on her lung is a tumor, it would be outside the ribcage. There are also non-surgical treatments for abscesses. If they're benign, I assume they too could be removed although the surgery would be risky.

For bladder stones, you want to use lots of water and non-NSAID pain medication. Something like tramadol or buprenorphine (narcotics) instead of meloxicam (a NSAID). NSAIDs have some bad effects on the kidneys so they're not recommended when the urinary system is under stress. Reduce the calcium in her diet (it is controversial as to whether dietary calcium promotes bladder stone formation, but in this case I'd rather be safe than sorry) by cutting back on things that have high calcium: dandelion greens, pellets (only make pellet changes gradually), alfalfa hay, parsley, turnip greens, some members of the cabbage family. Also put out a second bowl of diluted cranberry juice. Try to get one that doesn't have sugar added. You can dilute it 1:4 with water. Even better, dilute it with pedialyte, the infant rehydration drink. Soak her veggies in water for 15 min before you give them to her so that they absorb more water.

Flagyl as an antibiotic is usually good on the gut because it is anti-inflammatory. However, I'm not sure what the antibiotics are meant to treat. Baytril can be hard on the GI for sure.

Bladder stones usually occur in older rabbits with high blood calcium. The calcium in the blood comes from food, in a complicated process that's not totally understood in rabbits. A bladder infection can occur at the same time. We have had bunnies with this issue, and unfortunately it's incredibly difficult to make go away. Some specialty drugs are often used, like potassium citrate and Lasix to alter the way the kidneys work. Blood work is essential for a bunny with bladder stones, and a urinalysis is also very important.

It sounds to me like the pain from her bladder or maybe the other lumps is causing her overgrooming. The Panolog sounds fine to me.
 
Many thanks for such a helpful response and information on the drugs...Lara is about 3 years old at the youngest but could be older as we adopted her and nobody knows for sure her background. Yes, she is spayed.

We were told if we wanted, we could get an ultrasound to get a closer look at what these tumors are and, as you say, whether they are tumors or not.

Bottom line is I need another conversation with the vet to ask more questions on what the options are. I got a sense he was not prepared to offer the option to operate due to risks and complexities (rabbits being such delicate creatures).
 
Did she have a blood test? That might tell you something about the tumours. And maybe an utrasound, although I don't know if a second xray is better in terms of comparing the tumor and stone sizes to the first, that will be the vet's call.

The bladder stones may be small enough to flush or they may require surgery, but as the vet said, it may just be a matter of keeping her comfortable and see how it plays out.

I really don't think you have to restrict calcium, btw. Ease up on it, but don't try and eliminate it, the most current school of thought is that you'll be adding calcium deficiency issues like dental disease to the mix.

I'm including my email to you just so everybody knows we're on the same page. (Tonyshuman and I did not consult, we just had the same advice).

I'm still looking into some natural immune system boosters.

I'll post again soon.


sas :hug2:

-----------

Hi Rosanna,

Oh no, its terrible when they’re sick. Especially Lara, she’s so special.

If she’s eating and pooping, she doesn’t need the Cisapride.

What are the antibiotics? They are likely more for the stones seeing as they can cause infection, but with an unidentified mass, they may be looking at the possibility it could be an abscess, ditto with keeping infection away from her hair pulling area. (Aggravating an area like that has been a symptom in a lot of our tumor buns on the board).

Did he give her fluids? That will be the key to the stones treatment. How big are they? Cut out most of her pellets, give her a lot more veggies (and soak them in water for a bit), and get the vet to give her an infusion of sub q fluids if she shows any sign of discomfort. I’d also start giving her some cranberry juice in her water. I also sometimes spike Pipp’s with a little blueberry juice.

The Panalog is okay, Upjohn uses it too. Just don’t let her lick it. She will probably stops worrying the spot once she’s out of the habit.

Walton’s one of the better vets.

Dill had gas attacks and he turned out to have cancer, but his had hit his liver before he showed any sign other than the very odd gas attack, not sure if it was related.

You have to keep her immune system up. I’m currently looking into ways to do that.

You may want to repost this on the rabbitsonline.net forum, there have been others going through the same thing.

Hugs and pats to all. Keep in touch.


Sorelle
 
My rabbit Chase who is about 5-6 years old had 2 bladder stones surgically removed. Her bladder stones were both huge and took up most of her bladder. Both of hers were removed a few days after finding them. They had to come out.

Though Chase still struggles with bladder sludge, we have been stone free for over a year now. I agree with Sas and Claire that you don't want to cut calcium completely out of the diet but I would just be aware of what you are feeding. When I pick veggies to feed. I don't feed the ones that have the highest amount of calcium because I know my rabbits get calcium from their pellets and hay. And even the veggies that have lower amounts of calcium, still have some in it. I use these lists to help me
http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/calevel.html
http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/caforage.html

Chase has also been on and off Lasix for the last year or more. We have tried taking her off but the sludge came back. But the Lasix has at least stopped the stones from forming.

Some other things I have done is try to offer lots of water. Chase has 2 water bottles and 4 water bowels in her caged area. I have also tried flavoring the water. I have even flavored it myself by using the blender and adding banana's or their favorite veggie. I also tried the cat water fountains. I soak Chase's veggies for about an hour in water before giving them to her. The veggies will soak up the water so when she eats them she gets more water. We have also done sub q fluids.

I don't have any experience with tumors, but I hope you are able to find a solution to seeing what they are and if they can be removed.

Good luck and keep us updated.
 
Thanks - when I speak to the vet I will ask for blood work as he did not even suggest this as an option when we were there. It was almost that as soon as he saw the tumors he switched off completely to doing anything aside from saying it is about quality of life now....

Lara is doing really well though, we took of the band aid and the wound has scabbed over. I did not put Panolog on yesterday and she is leaving it alone so it's healing well and not giving her issues.

There is still that lump near to the wound which is still possibly a small absess that we need to keep an eye on though...
 
Amy27 wrote:
My rabbit Chase who is about 5-6 years old had 2 bladder stones surgically removed. Her bladder stones were both huge and took up most of her bladder. Both of hers were removed a few days after finding them. They had to come out.

Though Chase still struggles with bladder sludge, we have been stone free for over a year now. I agree with Sas and Claire that you don't want to cut calcium completely out of the diet but I would just be aware of what you are feeding. When I pick veggies to feed. I don't feed the ones that have the highest amount of calcium because I know my rabbits get calcium from their pellets and hay. And even the veggies that have lower amounts of calcium, still have some in it. I use these lists to help me
http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/calevel.html
http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/caforage.html

Chase has also been on and off Lasix for the last year or more. We have tried taking her off but the sludge came back. But the Lasix has at least stopped the stones from forming.

Some other things I have done is try to offer lots of water. Chase has 2 water bottles and 4 water bowels in her caged area. I have also tried flavoring the water. I have even flavored it myself by using the blender and adding banana's or their favorite veggie. I also tried the cat water fountains. I soak Chase's veggies for about an hour in water before giving them to her. The veggies will soak up the water so when she eats them she gets more water. We have also done sub q fluids.

I don't have any experience with tumors, but I hope you are able to find a solution to seeing what they are and if they can be removed.

Good luck and keep us updated.
Click to expand...

Many thanks also for this! Chase looks a bit like Lara with his orange/white markings ;)

Her stones are tiny but there was about 4 or 5 of them....

Good info on Lasix....very helpful...thank you!
 
I have an update! Lara's scab healing slowly, I have a pad with surgial tape covering it and although she tries to bite the tape it off, it's been there for the past 2 weeks without her doing further damage to herself or the scab so that is the most important thing. I say it'll be another week or two before it falls off and hair starts to grow again.

I have stopped using the Panalog cream and started to use Fullers Earth (brand is called Care). It's a zinc and clay based cream. I got it in the U.K and I'm not sure if you can buy it here? its a "miracle" cream that's multi-purpose for bites, stings, rashes (nappy rash) acne and irritation as it has a cooling effect....it's not just for humans as I have discovered - Lara barely tries to irritate herself now YAY!!

I chatted to the vet about Lara's bladder stones and tumors. The bladder stones he says, would not be big enough to be causing pain so it's almost a non-issue except to monitor whether she strains to go to the loo.

The tumors are something that we have to keep an eye on, no blood work required and we're not going to do an ultrasound as it sounds very invasive what with having to inject (a blue?) fluid...yuk.

If Lara has a funny turn again, I am going to ask for another x-ray so we can do a cross comparison with the last x-ray to see if the tumors have grown. After all, we do not know how long they have been there.

She is doing great but bunny lives are so precious and fragile...

Bunny kisses
 
Umm...couple of things here. First, I am concerned about the doctor's choice of drugs. I have no problem with the Flagyl as it is both an excellent antibiotic (mostly for anaerobic bacteria) and also acts as an anti-inflammatory. Cisapride, in my non-professional opinion, is always inappropriate in a rabbit. There are far too many risks with almost no positive benefits. And Baytril has been encountering resistance issues and is generally ineffective against many of the pathogens found in rabbits.

Lots of things contribute to sludge/stones. Primarily that we feed our rabbits an artificial diet. Many are clinically dehydrated. That adds to the calcium issue. Most house rabbits also don't get appropriate exposure to sunlight....that is how they manufacture Vitamin D which is essential in absorbing calcium. Many of the lower and middle level of foods do not have appropriate Vitamin D supplementation.

My response to this issue is lots of hydration via supplemental fluids if necessary. I make sure they get a proper diet. I also acidfy the urine by using ascorbic acid. Small amounts of citrus fruit works great. Cranberry extract also works well. Certainly surgery would be the option of last resort.

Randy
 
Thanks, Randy. I also feel the same way about Cisapride.

We didn't actually give Lara the Flagyl or Baytril as I felt two types of antibiotics were over-kill.

I prefer providing a more holistic approach - constant care, attention and love!! Some lavender drops on my wrist, held close but not on the fur, has a lovely relaxing effect on Lara, she settles right down to be petted.

Our buns, although house bunnies, do get sunshine. Where the sunstreams in the window, in one of the rooms at the end of the day, they sit right in it :)Lara is like a cat with sunshine!! It is Vancouver so it rains more than shines...we have to make sure Lara is out of the sun in the summer as she would just sit there and bake.
 
Randy or Claire can probably give you more information about this. But I remember a thread where it said sunlight coming through a window or screen filtered out vitamin D. That in order to get vitamin D from sunlight it had to be direct sunlight.
 
Amy is correct.....screens and window glass (and window glass is tinted) filter the UV rays to prevent fading of interior components. Other than unfiltered sunlight, the only way they get Vitamin D is by dietary supplements.

Randy
 
I also use "full-spectrum" bulbs in my house--two in the living room for my own vitamin D health, and one in the bunny room/plant room to help grow seeds. My bunnies live in there full time, and we alternate run time in the living room between the two pairs of bunnies.
 
Here's an update on Lara; she has been x-rayed again last week for progress on her lung tumours and unfortunately, they have grown by 25% in 2 months. Along with the two main tumours, there are lots others. The vet (Dr. Upjohn) has given her between 2-6 months to live :(
She is presently doing well and you wouldn't know the horrors inside of her. Eating, drinking & being her usual sociable rexy self!
Just preparing for the worst and thankful we have time to say goodbye.
 
One more item - she's been given Metacam but before we give her this, I want to do more research on it's effectiveness regarding tumours/cancer.

If anyone has any personal experiences with Metcam, I'm all bunny ears!
 
Day 2 of Metacam...reduced the dose from 0.15ml to 0.07ml just to build it slowly in her....we give it with food.

Talking of this.....her appitite has been INSATIABLE for about 2 weeks..and I mean it! crazy! she now comes into the kitchen (hard wood floor) and chomps at the bit for food.

I know it's not worms but wondering as she has lost weight over the past few months and she's finished off a shed, whether it is a seasonal change? i.e. stocking up for winter.

It's good she's eating but this is going too far...it's like her pellets or salad does not touch the sides and she's not letting us get away with it. We're getting concerned.

Any other rabbits go through this??
 
There is a lot of metabolic activity associated with tumors--they require a lot of nutrients to grow. They drain nutrients from the rest of the body because the cells there are dividing at a much quicker rate.
 
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