Toby is continuously shedding

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kirbyultra

kirbyultra

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Toby had a stasis episode on Christmas Eve and he was building up a gut slowdown for weeks prior. He was look better in January. Feb was iffy, and March has not been so great. His poops have been furry strings of pearls at least twice a week. He has been shedding since, for as far back as I can recall, November 2009. Granted, he didn't shed much before that because he was a baby but is it normal for a bun at one yr old to continuously shed fur?

He doesn't have mites, I am certain of that. He just constantly sheds fur. Every day I vacuum up several big balls of white fur. And I really do vacuum daily due to me and my husband's allergies!

Toby is a dwarfy, mini rexy looking medium sized bun. He does not have Rex fur though. He used to eat alfalfa pellets made by oxbow but at around 8-9 months old I started to combine Timothy (also oxbow) pellets. He's finishing up the mixed pellets now and by April he and my Kirby will both be eating Timothy pellets. He only gets 1/8 cup a day. I used to give him 1/4 c but found him quickly getting quite pudgy so I reduced it. He's only 4.2 lbs anyway so a 1/4 c is a touch high... He eats Timothy and orchard hay. Regularly gets romaine and green lettuce and parsley as his staple salad.

I don't know why he is constantly shedding! I could pet him once and my hand would be covered with a thin layer of fur. If I groom him I think I could go on grooming him forever and there'd be more loose fur an hr later.... But he has a perfectly thick coat. He isn't thinning anywhere.

I'm just not sure if this is normal! He gets these weird poops which cause me to worry. But he is still eating fairly normally at least!

Advice?

Thanks!!
Helen
 
Pipp wrote:
He may not be getting enough protein. I'd see if giving him the alfalfa pellets when he starts a molt makes a difference.


sas :bunnydance:
Click to expand...
I agree, there is a certain balance of protein needed in a diet to hold hair/fur growth and maintenance and by taking all alfalfa out of the diet, you'll need to make sure he's getting enough protein because alfalfa is what delivers most of it in a normal diet. I find that my show rabbits do well on about 18% protein in their pellets. My pet doe does well on about 16%, but it varies depending on the amount you're giving and the size of the rabbit.
 
Too much repetition in my posts so I deleted one of the above, in case anybody is confused. (I know I am, LOL!)

I'd love to do a poll of people's rabbits comparing diets and molts.

I believe both not enough and too much protein and too many carbs will make them molt more often. In other words, over feeding will also make them molt. I think.

But protein is required for growing bunnies, breeding females, any kind of growth including hair, thus long haired breeds need more -- but its generally not good for older bunnies. That's why the brand of pellet I buy for my old guys, called 'Less Active', are different than for my young guy.

So I would guess that a young, active bunny that molts for a long time is probably not getting enough protein. The new growth has to push the old growth out.

For those who didn't actually read the very insightful link, this is what Pamnock said about it.

pamnock wrote:
Too much protein over a period of time can extend the molt and lend to a "thrifty" condition.

Excess protein requires additional work by the kidneys to excrete the harmful urea produced during protein metabolism. This requires drinking higher amounts of water. Excess protein intake can lead to dehydration. Excess protein also causes addition calcium excretion contributing to bladder sludge.

In older rabbits, excess protein is especially hard on the kidneys and can contribute to glomerular sclerosis.
Click to expand...


sas
 
Oh my gosh!!! I can't believe switching him to timothy pellets made such a huge difference. I've been doing this to my poor Toby :(

The timeline sorta fits too. He's been shedding for months and I started to combine his pellets months ago, inching my way towards all-timothy. The transition has been extremely slow, and Toby still reacted this way. Toby shed his baby coat was gone a long time ago, though. I can visually tell the difference. I'm concerned that he might need to always be on an alfalfa pellet, in which case won't that risk him being obese?

Does high protein and high carb pellet come hand in hand? Is there a brand of pellet that has enough protein but won't cause too much weight gain in an adult rabbit? sas, what brand is the "less active" one that you use for older buns?
 
I have to assume -- or at least I've aways assumed, LOL! -- that bunnies under a year don't molt much. My younger ones didn't go into major molts until they were older.

Now I'm wondering if that's a product of the protein, hmmm... :ponder:

I don't think so tho... but something to watch and research.

Hay has protein, too, remember, just not as much as alfalfa. And hay grown in one area may be much higher protein than another. Not sure about vegetables.

I discovered how useless trying to micro-manage these things when I realized that the printed nutrient lists varied so much, depending on soil, sun, etc.

The key really is variety. I figure if they're getting a little of everything, it will all balance out!

I really wish they would list carbs/calories on the rabbit food bags. I do believe carbs, at least the starchy ones, are worse for bunnies than fat. ETA: And protein.

We need a resident rabbit nutritionist!


sas :bunnydance:
 
Oh, and I was talking about Martins Little Friends in Canada. Like Oxbow they have a regular pellet, alfalfa-based (Regular), and a timothy (Less Active).

I see they're now responding to current trends and changing the name of 'Less Active' to 'Timothy'.

How active is Toby?

Fat rabbits can look like apples with heads, but they can also have loose skin -- which is the opposite of cats and dogs, confusing a lot of non-rabbit vets.

A pear shaped, 'tight' rabbit should have no obesity worries, as far as I can tell.


sas :bunnydance:
 
Hmm he was shedding way before he hit 1 yr old...

Toby isn't fat. He is a good size I think, withou being too plump or thin. His frame is different from Kirby, so he sometimes looks thin but it's the arch of his body that makes him appear so. Here's a recent pic of him.

toby-eating-hay.jpg


His skin doesn't feel loose. I know what you mean by it because Kirby's neck area is a bit fat (lol). Toby doesn't have that though. Toby's MO is to sleep all day in hishide-away boxfrom around 11am til 6 or 7pm. Then he gets up and sits around until 11pm. He jumps around and runs for about an hour or two in short bursts. Then he just sorta hops around the rest of the night. I wouldn't say he's super active, but he's not sedentary either. He does more sitting around than I would like but when he comes around though, he tears everything up and zoom-zooms all over the place.

The lack of a "nutritional facts" panel on rabbit pellets has always annoyed me too :( I dunno, maybe I should put him back on all alfalfa for a few weeks and see if it improves? The funny thing is he always liked the timothy pellets better than the alfalfa pellets, contrary to normal bunny behavior. He would always poke his nose over at Kirby's dish because Kirby gets timothy pellets. When he started getting timothy pellets mixed in, he went bonkers.
 
Pipp wrote:
The key really is variety. I figure if they're getting a little of everything, it will all balance out!
Click to expand...
This is a dangerous assumption to make, but one that many rabbit owners do! There has been such a push toward alfalfa-free and all-veggie diets lately, but very few people have the knowledge to properly balance and feed these diets. I am of course not trying to attack you by saying this at all, because that is the information that is out there (variety = quality diet). But that is far from reality and contributes to a lot of the medical issues that I tend to see in pet bunnies. I know everyone only means the best, so its sad to see incorrect information out there for you all!

First, we should nip one thing in the bud- alfalfa pellets do not cause obesity. As with any food, of any type, whether its a pet food or a human food, there is too much of a good thing. Alfalfa pellets, along with timothy pellets or oats or carrots or veggies...they can all be nutritional, healthy foods in moderation. When fed correctly, they can all contribute to a healthy rabbit diet.

With that being said, the likely cause of this chronic molt is probably a lack of protein. Pipp was right to say that there is such thing as too much or too little protein. And sometimes, you just have to go with trial and error to find out what works for your bun.

I have found with my pet rabbits that an alfalfa pellet with about 16% protein and about 1-1.5% fat works well. I personally use Purina Rabbit Chow (green bag), but there are lots of different brands that do just as well. PRC is relatively low in calcium too. Fiber amounts will vary, but as long as you feed grass hay, the fiber content in pellets is not a huge cause of concern.

Depending on how active your rabbit is, I suggest approximately one half cup of pellets per 5 lbs. body weight daily for an adult rabbit. However, older, less active rabbits may do fine on one fourth cup. Younger rabbits (under 6 months of age) may do better on a more unlimited amount, within reason of course.

In addition to pellets, I offer unlimited grass hay. This can be timothy, orchard, bermuda, or a mixed grass hay. I do not use alfalfa because that, in addition to alfalfa pellets is too rich in calcium and protein. But an alfalfa pellet coupled with a grass hay works well.

I have found that my rabbits stay in good condition and do not really require any extras in the diet. But I do occasionally give a treat of parsley or small "side salad", especially in the summer to encourage hydration and get some water in them. But other than that, I do not include veggies as a large part of the diets because to be quite honest, I dont have enough knowledge of the exact ingredients and nutritional value of each veggie. Sticking to a pellet allows me to keep track of exactly what is going into my bunnies.

As always, just my personal suggestions. But I hope it will help!:)
 
Oh and on a side note-

Rabbits usually go through their first molt at between 12-16 weeks old, and then again at about 8 months old. From there, most rabbits molt once or twice a year. So that's what I'd consider to be normal, molt-wise. :)
 
Going back to basics, are we saying that a protein deficiency is causing Toby to be unable to maintain his coat and therefore shedding it? Because he is not going bald, he is producing fur non-stop. Or are we saying that he is getting *too much* protein, causing new fur to keep pushing the existing coat out?

If it was not enough protein, wouldn't we expect Toby to be thinning/going bald instead of producing more and more fur?
 
If Toby is currently on an all-timothy diet (which is what I was understanding) and has been in a constant molt, it is probably a protein deficiency rather than an excess of protein.
 
OakRidgeRabbits wrote:
Pipp wrote:
The key really is variety. I figure if they're getting a little of everything, it will all balance out!
Click to expand...
This is a dangerous assumption to make, but one that many rabbit owners do! There has been such a push toward alfalfa-free and all-veggie diets lately, but very few people have the knowledge to properly balance and feed these diets. I am of course not trying to attack you by saying this at all, because that is the information that is out there (variety = quality diet). But that is far from reality and contributes to a lot of the medical issues that I tend to see in pet bunnies. I know everyone only means the best, so its sad to see incorrect information out there for you all!

First, we should nip one thing in the bud- alfalfa pellets do not cause obesity. As with any food, of any type, whether its a pet food or a human food, there is too much of a good thing. Alfalfa pellets, along with timothy pellets or oats or carrots or veggies...they can all be nutritional, healthy foods in moderation. When fed correctly, they can all contribute to a healthy rabbit diet.
Click to expand...
Odd. We're saying almost exactly the same thing, but you're telling me I'm wrong. :ponder:

I agree that alfalfa pellets are getting a bad rap on the obesity thing, it's very much like the 'calcium scare' that I also think doesn't hold much water. (Heh!) But a diet of just alfalfa pellets can promote fatty liver disease in younger rabbits and kidney disease in older rabbits. And alfalfa hay. And a pellets-only diet of any kind promotes dental disease, which is the biggest health issue that rabbits seem to have.

I feed my guys both alfalfa and timothy pellets, depending on the rabbit, and they get as much grass hay as I can get them to eat (and I don't panic if it contains a little alfalfa). They also get humongous salads because I have access to a HUGE variety of veggies and they definitely balance themselves out. Salads are mostly for roughage, hydration and trace nutrients, I think with the water content (and the fact that the nutrients are all natural), they can't easily OD on any one vitamin/mineral -- although I do limit spinach, kale, collards and a few others to prevent the build up of certain nutrients. (And I did study contents and which ones to watch).

But even so, as long as I'm not feeding them the same thing for more than three or four days in a row, and that no one vegetable constitutes a large majority of the salad, its pretty safe. That's what I mean by variety.

And the amounts are all balanced out to make sure they still eat a ton of hay. If their hay consumption is down, they get less pellets and/or less salad.

Mind you I do have a non-hay eating dwarf who gets a doubly humongous salad and still very few pellets, a diet that has corrected her previous health problems.

This diet has also fixed every digestive and weight issue every foster bunny coming through here has had including 'megacolon' symptoms. The only down side is the occasional bout of gas, usually because I miss a bad spot in a veggie. I've very rarely run across sensitivities, although too much cabbage, a certain type of kale and one bunny who couldn't handle too much cilantro.

If I didn't have access to all the veggies (from a friendly whole foods produce store), I'd probably be looking for a selection of safe grass, weeds, flowers, tree branches, etc.

Variety works!


kirbyultra wrote:
Going back to basics, are we saying that a protein deficiency is causing Toby to be unable to maintain his coat and therefore shedding it? Because he is not going bald, he is producing fur non-stop. Or are we saying that he is getting *too much* protein, causing new fur to keep pushing the existing coat out?

If it was not enough protein, wouldn't we expect Toby to be thinning/going bald instead of producing more and more fur?
Click to expand...

THis is the post that I previously linked, I only re-posted Pam's response, this is the rest of it:

Pipp wrote:
Okay nutritionists (or anybody else!)

Does more protein cut down the time of a molt?

Just reading this:

If your rabbit is molting, give it a small handful of alfalfa hay. Since alfalfa hay is higher in protein, it will up the metabolism and cause the old fur to molt out quicker. Once the new coat of fur starts becoming established, switch the alfalfa out for timothy thereby lowering the protein level. This helps prevent new fur from pushing the old fur out, holding that nice beautiful coat of fur you were trying to get your rabbit to have and keep.
Click to expand...

This probably didn't answer your question, but my head hurts!

PPS: The above was a quote I found on another board from DevilishBluEyes, who has now joined the forum. He may have more to say on this one. :)


sas :biggrin2:
 
Pipp wrote:
Odd. We're saying almost exactly the same thing, but you're telling me I'm wrong. :ponder:
Click to expand...
No, I agree with what you're explaining in your posts!:)

The only part I was countering was the statement that variety balances things out. For example, if you feed a human child pasta, rice, bread, lollipops, and pineapple. That is a variety of different foods, but it doesn't account for all the vitamins and nutrients that the child needs to grow. So I was just saying that if a person were to feed a diet based on something other than pellets (that doesn't have the exact contents spelled out on the package), they need to be knowledgeable in what they're doing and not just assume that a variety will serve their purpose. I wasn't telling you you're wrong, just trying to point out and clarify for others that while a veggie diet or other diet is perfectly ok, it definitely requires a specific knowledge and intentional balance of ingredients.

By the same token, you pointed out that greens can be used as a fiber/water source more so than a nutritional source. That's a good point as well, which I forgot to mention. And in this case, pellets would not need to be cut from the diet because fiber can be considered "separate", like hay, in that case.

I do agree with you, I'm sorry if that came off differently!
 
I'm having a similar trouble with Gus!

Gus was in the midst of a moult when he came to live with us at the end of August 2009 (no idea when it started). About 6 weeks later, in mid-October, he was completed the moult. I thought he'd be good till about March, but he started moulting again in December. Now, at the tail end of March he is still completing that moult (he's about 98% there, I think) and on Saturday he just started ANOTHER moult! :shock:

When Gus came to us, he was eating a muesli mix from the feed store (it contained rabbit pellets, calf manna, oats, corn, and wheat). I weaned him off of that and onto first Martin's alfalfa pellets (in September), then onto Martin's timothy pellets (in November). He gets 1/2 C of pellets per day (split into two feedings) since he weighs 7.5 lbs.

He wasn't eating too much hay when we got him, but he was receiving unlimited hay in his cage until January when I started feeding him his hay outside (due to our allergies). To be honest, even though he doesn't have 24/7 access, I think he eatsjust as much hay as he used to! (He loves his hay!)

He gets two large salads every day. A typical saladmight have2 leaves baby bok choy, 2 radishes with tops, 2 leaves of green lettuce, 2 leaves of escarole, 1 leaf kale, 4-5 sprigs parsely andcilantro. (He has a 10 inchbowl for his salads! ;))

On top of that, he also gets dried fruit as treats. Usually hubby feeds him a few in the morning (like 5 or 6 Craisins), then the twokids feed him a few after school (I'm trying to keep it to 3 apiece), then hubby usually feeds him a few more treats after work. I used to feed him a few treats after breakfast, but I've cut that out because I feel he's getting more than enough! I'm guessing that adds up to at least 1/4 C of treats every day. :shock:

Could the treats be the cause of the continuous moult? Or should I maybe switch him back to the Martin's alfalfa pellet. Or even start giving him a mix of the two?

Gus doesn't feel overweight to me (you can still easily feel his ribs, spine, hips,etc. under his skin),though he does seem to have a bit of loose skin around his bum (neveroccurred to methat might be excess weight until this thread!).

Oh, and he's supposed to be 2 1/2, though I've sometimes wondered if he's actually younger.

Thoughts?

Thanks!!!

Rue
 
Try doing what DevilishBlueyes suggests and switch Gus to alfala when the molt starts and than back to timothy and maybe it will be shorter and the new coat will stay longer.

I really recommend that everybody keep track of food, upsets, molts, etc, with this handy dandy little journal tool/chart from Oxbow...

http://www.oxbowanimalhealth.com/resources/dyn/files/104157/_fn/Pet+Journal-weekly+chart.pdf

I'm trying to figure out a poll for this but a chart analysis a few months down the road may be a better route.


sas :bunnydance:
 
Thanks, sas!

Now I'm wishing I'dhad that chart when I first got Gus!:p

In thinking back (as best I can ;)), I think the amount of treats he's getting may be causing him to moult more frequently and a lack of protein may be causing them drag on forever.

I'm going to try cutting back on his treats significantly and introducing some alfalfa pellets to speed things up!

Thanks!

Rue
 
I've found that a few things tend to cause a rabbit to molt a lot. The first and most common is parasites in the fur. Sometimes you may see what looks like white dandruff which is a sign of fur mites. And sometimes if you look real closely you might see very very tiny black spots which might be fleas. Normally the bedding or birds that fly over your rabbit cage can be the culprit. Many rabbit breeders will use ivermectin to combat fur parasites. I realize you said that your rabbit doesn't have fur mites but I just wanted to bring up all the normal causes.

The second main cause is usally a poor diet. That could be the result of a diet that is lacking nutrients or a diet that has too much energy or something along those lines. Different breeds tend to do well on different feeds. When I had Checkered Giants they did well on Wayne's feed. But my New Zealands and Californians got fat on it and tended to moult a bunch. Checkered Giants are a large running breed and use up more energy. New Zealands and Californians don't use up as much energy and that excess energy from the extra corn in the feed made them fat. Your rabbit sounds like it may not be getting enough pellets and protein. Those stringed up balls of poop are stringed together because the rabbit is eating its loose fur. The fur is what strings the poop together. Fur is primarily made of protein. And sometimes rabbits will eat their own fur to make up for a lack of protein in their diet by recovering some of their protein through eating the fur. For that size of rabbit it really should be getting about 1/4 cup of pellets, but you don't really need to give the greens. I would probably give it about a 1/4 cup of pellets and a very small handful of alfalfa hay. The roughage from the hay will also help make the poop a little more normal. When I look at energy for a food I look at the kcal/kg vs the percentage of crude protein. Banana has about 800 kcal per 1% of crude protein. Fresh apples have about 1400 kcal per 1% of crude protein. Carrots have about 450 kcal per 1% protein. Alfalfa hay, cabbage and lettuce all have about 110 kcal per 1% crude protein. Corn has about 350 kcal per 1% crude protein. For people that show rabbits. Corn is considered to be very high in energy and will tend to make rabbits molt and get fat. Apple as far as energy just blows that away. Even carrots are much higher as far as energy. Notice that the leafy plants are low in energy. The ones that are high contain sugar. Yes, even carrots contain sugar. And that high energy will collect as fat. So you need to watch out for the foods with sugar.

Another cause is anything that ups the metabolismof the rabbit. There are many things that can cause that. But the biggest common factor is CHANGE. Some examples are not feeding your rabbit the same every day. You want to feed the same food, with the same amount at nearly the same time every day. Always have water available. If a rabbit doesn't get enough water to drink that can up the metabolism. Moving the rabbit is another cause. A change in weather can be. And stress is another cause. Typically what you see people that show rabbits feed their rabbits looks dull and boring. But rabbits like monotony and little change to their diet and that monotony keeps them eating and healthy.

It also would be a good idea to brush your rabbit out regularly. Lightly wet your hands and then run your hands over the rabbits fur from shoulders to tail. The loose fur will stick to your hands. Do this for about 1-2 minutes each day. Just rub your hands together to remove the fur from your hands. If the rabbits fur starts turning spikey it is starting to get too wet and it is time to stop brushing it for that day. Rabbit judges often wet their hands by just grabbing a damp towel.

Genetics will also tend to play a role in fur. But most rabbits will have descent fur and won't molt all the time unless they are older and even then something is kind of up if they are molting all the time.

As far as feeds I'd recommend. I line Purina's Fibre 3 brand. Heinolds 17-17 Family Ration would also be pretty good to try. And my dad has had very good luck with Graham Grain feed. Graham is very cheap and at first I didn't think it would due well due to the low price. But the proof is in the results. And I like the results. As they say, "If it works, don't try to fix it."

My best guess without seeing the rabbit first hand is that your rabbit needs a more balanced diet with more protein and some of the vitamins and minerals it may be lacking. You may want to check out the article I wrote on "Is my rabbit fat?" at the website below. There is a difference between your rabbit getting heavy and it getting fat.

http://sites.google.com/site/rabbitknowledgeforum/






 
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