Stomach feels hard...

[Jenk]

For the second time in several months, Emma went from acting/eating/pooping/peeing fine to showing signs of discomfort. This morning, her gut sounds were very loud; I felt a little gas in her.

It's seven hours later, andher stomach feels overly firm (i.e., hard). That being the case, is it likely better to give her a dose of sub-Qs to soften the food in her stomach(rather than forcing oral fluids into her stomach)?

Thank you,

Jenk

 

[Pipp]

Has she gotten simethicone and massage? That's usually my first approach with my gassy guys. Some are more prone than others.

I don't think sub q is a good idea at this stage. Deal with the gas issues.

When did she last poop?


sas

 

[Jenk]

Pipp wrote:

Has she gotten simethicone and massage? That's usually my first approach with my gassy guys. Some are more prone than others.

Yes. She got three doses (spaced an hour apart) this morning. I didn't feel much gas breaking up, though. And I don't even know if what I'm feeling in her stomach is gas. I'd increased her pellet intake by 1 tsp. a few weeks ago; it could be that she's not been taking in quite enough fluids to pass it along. That's my biggest concern.

Still, I will give her another Simethicone dose this evening.

I don't think sub q is a good idea at this stage. Deal with the gas issues.

Well, it's too late....I gave her sub-Qs about three hours ago. Again, her stomach feels so firm that I suspect that it's more food material than gas sitting there. And I don't want to force fluids directlyinto her stomach if there's not much room in it.

When did she last poop?

Technically, I saw her pass one fecal around 8 pm, when my hubby was trying to place her on a heating pad (on the lowest heat setting). When she jumped off of the pad, she left a poop behind.

But she passed a normal amount of fecals overnight last night; so I suspect that she stopped passing fecals at the same time that she started showing signs of gut discomfort (i.e., 9:30 am today).

 

[Jenk]

It's 15 min. from my previous response. I just recheckedEmma and gave her another dose of Simethicone (her 4th one today).

I'm not sure that the sub-Qs were a bad thing, though; her eyes look flat. I'm unsure if they can appear that way simply from stomach discomfort, but I've always associated it with dehydration.

If I'm right,and she is dehydrated, would another dose of sub-Qs tonight make sense? (Her previous dose was given around 5 pm.)

Our other Mini Rex once got a straight 60-cc dose of sub-Qs (by the vet), so I don't think that 60 cc's given several hours apart is a horrible thing--especially since her body has already soaked up the first 30 cc's of fluid.

Jenk

 

[Pipp]

Didn't realize you posted so long ago, Jenk, sorry for missing it.

My guys only poop at certain times of the day, so she may not have missed much.

Most discomfort is worked out with exercise and massage. Sometimes the simethicone works, but not always.

Fluids don't help unless there's a definite slowdown or blockage, and I don't think increasing pellets is going to cause that, and most bunnies should know how much they should be drinking. They don't always know what they should be eating, and what may cause gas.

Does she like canned pumpkin? If you're worried about the pellet increase, fluids, fiber, etc (or for molting bunnies), a regular bit of pumpkin is always helpful here.

I think sub q's are great but need to be used in more pressing circumstances, you don't want to be unnaturally working the kidneys. That will bite you down the road more than minor slowdowns and/or gas attacks.

Also, I know from x-rays, etc, that part of the discomfort in many cases is fluids in the tract along with the gas, if that's worth anything.


sas :bunnydance:

 

[Pipp]

I was told with Radar that the Sub Q measurements are pretty important, calculated by weight. I don't remember what they are. I do remember the numbers over a 24 hour period seemed pretty high to me.

My guys will have the dull eyes whenever they're in pain/discomfort. Interesting that 'flat' might signal dehydration. I'd be curious to hearing more about that. Its always hard to tell in a rabbit. I've been told that the 'tenting the skin' test isn't accurate in rabbits like it is in other animals.

Is she perking up mentally?


sas :clover:

 

[Jenk]

Pipp wrote:

Most discomfort is worked out with exercise and massage. Sometimes the simethicone works, but not always.

I'm fairly certain that I can't force her to exercise at this point; she's simply too uncomfortable. She's already urinated on her towel (on which she sleeps) and herself. I suspect that she felt so pained, she just peed while lying down.

Fluids don't help unless there's a definite slowdown or blockage, and I don't think increasing pellets is going to cause that, and most bunnies should know how much they should be drinking. They don't always know what they should be eating, and what may cause gas.

You'd be surprised what can cause issues with both Zoe and Emma. Both are a breed prone to stasis; their background is unknown; they seem to have issues with too many greens (i.e., they can't handle an amount typical for buns their size); and I've seen their digestive tracts dry out far too easily.

I think sub q's are great but need to be used in more pressing circumstances, you don't want to be unnaturally working the kidneys. That will bite you down the road more than minor slowdowns and/or gas attacks.

Pumpkin is out right now; I don't want to add much food substance to her gut until it seems like she's moving/passing what's sitting in her stomach.

As I've already mentioned, she's peed on herself while lying down; to me, that's somewhat serious (at least in terms of her pain level). I don't consider that indicative of minor discomfort. And I'm still not feeling a lot of gas breaking up beneath my fingers.

Also, I know from x-rays, etc, that part of the discomfort in many cases is fluids in the tract along with the gas, if that's worth anything.

Sub-Q fluids, though, hydrate various areas of the body, yes? If I'd syringed a bunch of fluids into her stomach, I may have overloaded it.

What I'm sorry that I did is syringe her about 5-10 cc's of water about 20 min. ago. She took it, so I gave it to her; but now she seems more uncomfy/pained again.

Is it bad to give two doses of Metacam 12 hours apart? I'm considering giving her another one to try to ease her discomfort during the night.

 

[Maureen Las]

I would go by with whatever your vet dosed with the metacam ; also wondering if you tried benebac.
My Beau has also had a hard tummy last few days which is strange as he is still pooping ; I have been doing the benebac, simethicone, pedialyteroutine on and off since yesterday but still cannot figure out exactly what is going on with him. His gut may be slower because he is shedding heavily. Yesterday he seemd a little lethargic but his activity level is normal today.

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

I would go by with whatever your vet dosed with the metacam ; also wondering if you tried benebac.

She's always recommended one dose per 24 hours' time. Still, Emma is clearly still in a lot of pain. She keeps shifting her body into awkward positions. Poor girl.

I've not been using a probiotic on her. There's always the risk of throwing off the gut flora if there isn't an imbalance of negative bacteria to begin with.

My Beau has also had a hard tummy last few days which is strange as he is still pooping;

That's been the problem the last two times (includingtoday) with Emma: She's continued to passnormal fecals (and a good quantity of them); so we didn't even suspect that her stomachwas turning hard.

I have been doing the benebac, simethicone, pedialyteroutine on and off since yesterday but still cannot figure out exactly what is going on with him. His gut may be slower because he is shedding heavily. Yesterday he seemd a little lethargic but his activity level is normal today.

Emma finished a two-month-long shed a few weeks ago. So, in her case, it shouldn't be ingested hair.

I'm just highly concerned because, typically, 2-3 doses of Simethicone takes care of the issue if it's gas. Four doses (and 13 hours later), and she's still in pain.

 

[Maureen Las]

I would stll use benebac; I have never had an experience where it made the situation worse, howeverI don't have Emma here either

I hesitate to tell you to use the metacam twice in aday ; i have never done that

Make your own call , Jen, as maybe you have done it before. I know that she is well hydrated so it shouldn't be too bad for her kidneys.

Ihope that you can get her over this;I went to bed last night not having a clue what to do for Beau so i just kept up the routine but i did not give as much simethicone as you have. I wouldn't give more for awhile .
Sorry that i am not more helpful

 

[Pipp]

What breed it Emma again?

My guys seem to always slow down and get a bit gassy with molts.

But my mini-rexes both looked like their dying when they had their gas attacks -- they peed on themselves and looked just awful. One was prone to them, although he eventually died from cancer.

Both he and the other mini-rex would tend to eat veggies that disagreed with them and those with the tiniest black bits, and the others eating the same thing were fine but they'd get gas.

Last week the always healthy Radar (black mutt bunny) died from stomach ulcers, my vet is/was convinced it was the Metacam, but he got it with food and water.

I suspect it was more that he got runny poops and went off his food, maybe because his last penicillin shot didn't agree with him (or something) and I didn't have access him to notice for over 24 hours, so he could have not eating much for up to 36 or even 48 hours, and his gut was stressed.

I watched the necropsy, he did have cecal dysbiosis and horrible stomach ulcers and an intestinal tract full of gas and fluids.

But I digress. I'd still try vibration therapy and/or looooong massages. What dose was the simethicone?

If her gut was trying out, she'd have dry poops, no?


sas :clover:

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

I hesitate to tell you to use the metacam twice in aday ; i have never done that.

Make your own call , Jen, as maybe you have done it before. I know that she is well hydrated so it shouldn't be too bad for her kidneys.

I haven't used it every 12 hours, either. And I'm not thrilled by the thought of doing so. I may just wait until 9 am tomorrow to dose her again.

Ihope that you can get her over this;I went to bed last night not having a clue what to do for Beau so i just kept up the routine but i did not give as much simethicone as you have. I wouldn't give more for awhile.

I don't plan to give her more Simethicone; if four doses doesn't take care of the issue with her stomach, I suspect that gas isn't the main problem.

Now I'm debating if I should sleep in my own bed tonight, or if I should "camp out" with her to possibly keep up her morale. *sigh* Whatever happened to having pets that allowed humans to still have a life???

 

[Maureen Las]

You know sometimes you have done everything that you can and there is nothing left to do for the night; You can camp with her but only if it makes her feel better..otherwise go to bed and leave it for the night.

Idon't usually talk like this but to be honest that is whatI did last night ; there was not another thing that I could do... and it didn't hurt him any.
I knowI stressed Beau out a lot yesterday

 

[tonyshuman]

What about a spin cycle or a dive around town? Some toothbrush to the belly massage? The eyes "flat" thing and peeing on herself is indicative of quite a bit amount of pain. The bunny drug dosage calculator does have dosage for sub-Q's.

http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rx/drugcalc.html

I think it would be good to get at least 20mL into her, perhaps even more, like 50ml.

 

[Runestonez]

When we run into a case of stasis we usually dose with Ovol(simethicone), if they are hunched and in pain we give Metacam (I have dosed on 12 hour cycles depending on the amount of discomfort...if you are giving a full dose every 24, you may be able to do a half dose after 12...just don't go nuts on the stuff!) We put them on a heating pad covered with a towel or blanket as they don't seem to appreciate the heating pad much...we try to do some tummy massages and when all else fails...we try to get them up and move around a bit. It seems mean when they are in pain, but sometimes it is the best way to help get their gut moving again.

We just had our two 8 week old kits go through Mucoid Enteritis...Guffy started into ME with stasis. So once we got the swelling down he was still impacted and he had very little in the way of gut sounds, stopped eating and drinking...(we keep cisapride on hand too just in case)
We would dose him with Ovol, put him on the warming pad while massaging his sides, give him maybe 10 minutes to get warm and let the Ovol get into his system and then he would have to go on the floor for about 5-10minutes every hour to move around.(by the time we did the massage and meds he was so mad when we put him down he was moving on his own!) In bad cases we will dose with Ovol every hour on the hour with 1ml or for bigger bunns a full dropper.

I hope some of this helps! I hope Emma feels better!

Danielle

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

You know sometimes you have done everything that you can and there is nothing left to do for the night; You can camp with her but only if it makes her feel better..otherwise go to bed and leave it for the night.

You're right, of course.

After reading your last post, I turned off the computer and gave Emma a smaller Metacam dose (around 12 am). I fell asleep near her until my DH woke me for bed at 1:15 am (when he was headed there himself).

When I left Emma, her eyes were closed and her breathing so shallow, I didn't expect to find a living bun in the morning. So I had a soft cry in bed and passed out against my will.

Shortly after I woke this morning, I found her eating a little hay in her litter box, in which shepassed maybe 10 very small fecals. I also got her totake 15 cc's of semi-watery Critical Care.

She is acting more perky and sassy, which is great. But this situation still breaks my heart. My DH is ready to start rehoming buns. He's already surpassed his can-do limit (especially financially) a long time ago, and I know that. I've just tried to blissfully press onward with things.

At the very least, I foresee us having to rehome Emma. Because once I return to work full-time, there would be no one here who could give her the 16+ hours of care that she's already had for the current issue. And this isn't the first time that her stomach has turned rock hard (seemingly on a dime, since she does everything fine up until the moment it hits).

BTW, we don't suspect that this issue is gas;in the past, she's responded to well to Simethicone (two doses usually work). But these two recent bouts seem to be caused by a rock-hard stomach (possibly ingesta stuck there). The vet and I have speculated that she may have an abnormally narrow pyloric valve (or some other region of her digestive tract) that just makes it easy for food to get stuck.

The bad part is that she can't gopellet free; she burns up too many calories by being her typical, busy-bee self.

I need to think on this situation some more, but I don't see how keeping her benefits anyone if: 1) we're out of funds for chasing a cause that can't be found; 2) I'm exhausted from two years' of ongoing pet-care stress; 3) my DH is no longer (and hasn't been) supportive of the situation; and 4) Emma likely wouldn't survive another such "attack" if we're both working full-time. :tears2:

 

[Jenk]

My most immediate quandry is: Do I feed Emma at least some pellets today? (I can't really know if pellets are the problem.)

She's had watered-down Critical Care since 6 am and is eating hay on her own. She also voluntarily came out to play this morning, so she got some exercise.

But I'm still not feeling better about having to question everything regarding the "cause" of her "surprise stasis" issues.

 

[Maureen Las]

The critical care is enough ; you could give her a little more of that instead of pellets. I understand your feelings Jen although remeber that she has improved some today

if she has a blockage or semi blockage you would need an x-ray which of course would cost a lot.
I cannot be on long as we have a surrender of 17 rabbits at our shelter ; they are living in the garage there right now. I have to leave soon but will check back later or tonight.

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

The critical care is enough; you could give her a little more of that instead of pellets.

I did skip her pellet ration today. She's eaten a decent amount of hay and her greens but hasn't touched her water dish. (I'm guessing that's because she had a sub-Q dose and is receiving syringed fluid.)

She is a lot more zippy today. Still, I can't believe that she's twice given us no indication of a problem until it was upon her/us. She's scaring the daylights out of me.I truly went to bed last night with lowhopes of finding a living bun when I awoke today.

if she has a blockage or semi blockage you would need an x-ray which of course would cost a lot.

Seriously, is there a cap-off on how often rabbits are x-rayed? All three of our guys have already had several. Itjust seems crazy-dangerous to me.