(RANDY?????) Rory's pee issues, now coordination issues too

[SnowyShiloh]

There's something wrong with Rory. Background: He is an almost 3 year old neutered mini lop and was diagnosed as having a UTI about 3 months ago because he was peeing outside his litter box. The vet didn't actually test his urine though. He stopped with the random peeing after getting Baytril for 2 weeks. About 3 weeks ago, he started occasionally peeing outside of the litter box again. I talked to the vet and mentioned it in Skyler's EC thread, but was told it probably wasn't worth taking him to the vet yet since he was acting normally otherwise and wasn't doing it frequently.

Two days ago, he suddenly started peeing outside the litter box in his cage about 3 times a day. He also started behaving slightly different and I got the feeling something was wrong with him. He was still eating and drinking and playing normally. Last night, he actually peed on the couch when I was petting him, which he hasn't done since the first day we had him. I decided then to take him to the vet (she isn't in until Monday, she was out of town for a couple weeks) when he did that. Today he is continuing to pee in odd places, and is acting somewhat lethargic. He is eating and drinking and pooping normally. I let him out to play tonight and he hasn't been racing around like normal, instead he put himself back in his cage. Today he's looked more tired than normal and his fur is a little poofy.

I know there's not much that the people in the Infirmary can do for him, I just wanted to give everyone a head's up. I really hope his problem is simple and can be fixed. I'm quite concerned about him because I just know something isn't right! I hope it isn't related to what Skyler has.

 

[Maureen Las]

I hope that it is not related either ; it still could be an unresolved urinary tract infection.I would hope the vet could get a urine same and do a culture.
let us know and Good Luck to you with both of them

 

[tonyshuman]

:goodluck

 

[SnowyShiloh]

What the heck is with my bunnies lately? I feel like people are going to think I have a rabbit version of Munchausen Syndrome by proxy. I didn't take Rory to the vet earlier this week because I talked to her on the phone and she said that I should keep an eye on him, but she didn't think he needed to come in.

Quick background: he is still eating, drinking, pooping, and peeing. He's doing normal bunny things (washing, running, getting into things, wanting to be petted), but is doing some of these things strangely.

I was gone all afternoon, and when I got back, I noticed he was behaving oddly. First, you know how they flick their paws when they're about to wash their faces? He was doing that, but had his paws down so low that they were hitting the floor of his cage loudly. He did about 5 rounds of the hitting his paws and washing his face. Very odd! I have seen the bunnies hit their paws on the ground like that a couple times, but never so many times in a row.

I picked him up to get a look at him, and found that his tail, stomach and feet have pee on them. I set him back in the cage, and he hopped to the bottom floor, then was hopping around. His back legs looked weird when he was hopping. He may have actually been flicking his feet (normal behavior) but it was hard to tell.

I let him out of his cage to run around so I could observe him. He tried to hop onto a box that is 18 inches high, but didn't make it. He has since hopped up on it several times though. Then he hopped up on the futon to sit with me. At some point, he decided to wash his belly. The futon tilts back somewhat so it's not perfectly flat. He rolled backwards as he was washing his belly, and ended up lying on his side/back washing himself, with both his back feet sticking out. He looked just like this cat, except he was slightly more on his side:

He has also done things like managed to jump up and balance on a very thin ledge (about 2 inches wide) though.

This is very odd. I feel like he's trying to go about his normal activities but losing track of his body's movements when he's relaxed. I've never seen him pee on himself like that (I'm assuming he actually peed on himself since it is on his tummy, rather than peed on a flat surface and the urine just got on his fur), seem to have issues with his back legs, have trouble jumping on a box, roll over when grooming himself, or hit his paws on the ground like that.

I called the vet, but the office was about to close and she wasn't there. I am hoping to get him in tomorrow morning. I know the vet isn't working tomorrow, but she already was going to stop in to look at Skyler's stool sample and I'm sure she'll be concerned about Rory.

Does this sound familiar to anyone? Of course, I immediately thought of EC since he's peeing on himself and seems to be having issues with his back end (which wouldn't explain the paw thing), but I don't know.

Right now he is sitting next to me with his head on my arm, licking me.

 

[Maureen Las]

It does sound like neurological issues related to EC
I am so sorry for you :hug:
best to get him to the vet ASAP

 

[tonyshuman]

AIt certainly isn't normal behavior. It does sound neurological, though. Did he get into any dangerous foods too? If not, its probably ec. I hope he can get on an antiparasitic too.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Angieluv and Claire, thanks for your replies! The vet couldn't see Rory today, and the next appointment I could get was Wednesday, but the receptionist was able to squeeze us in at noon on Monday.

I hope that Rory doesn't have EC! Good news is he's out of his cage and just binkied. I haven't seen him do anything weird yet today (I haven't been home for more than 45 minutes though). Is it possible for bunnies with neurological issues to be better on some days?

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Scratch that. He just tried to jump on the back of the couch from the sitting part of the couch and couldn't make it. Maybe it's because there's a quilt on the back of the couch and it could have slipped when he tried to jump up, but as far as I can remember this is the first time he's not made the jump on the first try (he's even jumped from the couch to the stairs behind the couch, which are higher and farther back) and the quilt has been there for a couple months now. If it is just a coincidence, there sure are a lot of coincidences piling up on each other!

Also Claire, it occurred to me too that he could have eaten something. I'm 90% sure he did not. His #1 hate in life is linoleum (and all other slick surfaces) and he never, ever goes in the kitchen. We don't have any chocolate or plants or other unsafe things he could eat in the living room. The hot chocolate mix that Ned got into was in the kitchen (the other bunnies actually like going in the kitchen and being nosy).

 

[Maureen Las]

The hind end , kidney and bladder and neurological problems are all symptoms of Ec.
I wish that you could get a hold of some of the anti-protozoal horse drug Marquis ( Ponazuril) which Randy uses for Ec.

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2832&S=1&SourceID=52
Possibly bring this up with the vet.
It is used for coccidia in horses and (could be used for that in rabbits) and is off label for Ec and for rabbits but possibly your vet would be willing to talk to Randy.

let us know how he is doing .
:hug:
Maureen

 

[Maureen Las]

I'm sure Randy will add to this when he sees it. ...

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Rory and I are back from the vet! I had to reschedule it to this morning because Paul couldn't get us there on Monday, and Rory acted fine all weekend (didn't even pee outside the litter box). He was acting weird on Friday but seems fine since then.

The vet examined him and said he looks great, but that his molars are flared out- she said that's usually caused from bunnies not getting hay. He gets hay every day though, so she said it's probably from when he was a young bunny since we didn't get him until he was about 8 months old. It's not causing him any problems now but she said it may when he's older. Does anyone know anything about this?

She took a urine sample from him and then examined it. She said there are clumps of bacteria in the urine and that it is more diluted than it should be. I'm glad she found something, even if it means the poor guy has a UTI!

She said she DIDN'T find anything that would make her think he has EC, thankfully. Hopefully it's just a UTI and he was simply having an off day on Thursday. He got Baytril to treat the UTI- .1 cc twice a day for 2 weeks. Does that sound good?

He has to go back on January 29th to have his urine tested again. I scheduled Phoebe Mae's spay for the same day! Eep! Here's to hoping the UTI is cleared up by then and that her spay goes well.

 

[Maureen Las]

Rabbits often have genetic dental issues unrelated to diet ( my rabbit Beau is a good example of this)

I hope that this is just a Bladder infection, however, Randy just posted in another thread that often vets will miss the EC and just treat theapparent problem ( presenting infection. )

I really hope that it is nothing more than an infection.

Baytril is not the first drug of choice but may be effective ( at least temporarily) a few times before the rabbit becomes resistant. Sounds like the first round didn't do the trick completely
Please let us know how he is doing

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Rory has been on Baytril for 6 days. He peed on the floor of his cage several times today and his feet, tail and butt were pretty wet each time. The good thing is he grooms himself clean afterwards... He's acting different. He's wayyyy more cuddly and affectionate than he used to be! Always humping on the couch to be cuddled, he licks my face and clothes, approaches people he's never met before, even let 2 of my friends pick him up. He's doing the drumming thing with his paws before washing his face a lot too. Other than that, he's acting normal. I don't know if the friendliness is related to him being sick or just because he's almost 3 and possibly starting to mellow out- I hope it's the latter.

 

[Maureen Las]

I still think that there is more going on here than just a bladder infection.

I'm sorry that Randy did not see this but if he doesn't since you bumped itI will email it to him.


it doesn't sound like the baytril is really working well ...maybe the vet would prescribe zithromax. ??

What the vet probably meant by a possible future problem with the molars flaring out is that they eventually may need filing . Sometimes molars at an angle will start to irritate the lining of the bun's mouth causing the rabbit to be in discomfort ; this will affect eating.
As Pipp related in another thread yesterday she gives Pipp very chewy stemmy veggies which keep Pipp's molars down without a need for filing; also push hay that he likes
Some molar problems are genetic and really cannot be helped even by the hay and veggies but atempting to resolve the problem this way is still a good idea.

I don't think a major behavior change is age related although I may be wrong with this

I know you will keep watching for other symtpoms with him

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Angieluv, thanks so much for helping :hug:

What the heck is wrong with my pets? So in a week he will be back to the vet, it will cost $150 more to have his urine tested again, he will be switched to a different medication, then 2 weeks later we'll do it again... Phoebe is being spayed the same day. I may have to delay her spay a bit until Rory is better (assuming he gets better). How much is a normal amount for bunnies in the 3-4 pound range to drink? Rory's urine test came back showing that his urine was more diluted than it should be. Phoebe Mae drinks MORE water than Rory every day. Ned drinks about the same. Neither of them are showing pee issues, will they? Ugh. I wish I could just know what the heck is wrong with him (the idea of something really big being wrong with my Rory freaks me out), and if something is wrong with the other two. Skyler's peed on himself for the first time in a month today also. My ratty has a funky URI right now so we've been to and from the vet with her as well. Seems like everything happens at the same time. My poor pets Oh and just to gripe some more, I'm coming down with Paul's horrible cold. There was no school for a month, but it starts up again the day after tomorrow.

 

[tonyshuman]

HUGS HUGS HUGS
I can't imagine going through all of this.

I wonder if they tested Rory's blood as well? Urine that's too dilute can be a sign of kidney damage. There are also indicators of kidney issues that can be measured in the blood. The way kidneys work is that all the small stuff in the blood flows into a tube--this is water, salt, dissolved stuff like some proteins, other small molecules. Farther down the tube, things that the body needs are taken back up--specifically water. If the kidneys can't pick the water back up, due to damage, it's excreted, the urine is less concentrated, and the rabbit drinks more because they're putting out more water. But then again, if Rory drinks less than Phoebe Mae (I just adopted a hamster named Phoebe too, btw), that may not be what's going on. It's possible that fewer of the things that are supposed to be excreted in the urine are being excreted, again due to kidney issues.

I don't want to make you upset, but I firmly believe that it's best to be prepared for the worst, so that if it's not that, you're relieved, and if it is, you're ready.

Did you get any responses from Randy? I have an email I could forward you/PM you if you like, from him.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Claire, in another thread in the Nutrition section Randy said he didn't think Baytril would do any good for Rory

I'm going to request that the vet do bloodwork on him when we go back in. I agree with you guys, I'm pretty connected to Rory and I can sense something is not right with him. I'm worried sick about him and Skyler and the other bunnies, what if something is lurking in all 4 of them? Terrible as this may sound, I love all the bunnies but Rory is my baby. Him being potentially very ill on top of Skyler being very ill is too much.

 

[Pipp]

So sorry. :hug1

Isn't $150 for a urine test a little high? I thought they could test for blood traces with just a strip test. Or was the urine test a culture and sensitivity thing? My vet will usually prescribe the antibiotic first and not bother with the test right away in case that particular one works. I think they hope to see at least some results after a couple of days and test at that point if they don't. Normally seven days is the trial limit. After seven, they can determine if its working and extend the treatment period or try another drug.

And wouldn't a blood test also show infection?

I don't know any of this for sure, but in this case I think I would have been more inclined to do a blood test regardless, but I'd like more info on this too.


sas :?

 

[tonyshuman]

The urine test results sound like it was a pretty thorough test, like one that's similar to a blood test. It probably was a test run on an instrument. $150 is a bit high, though, I would think.

 

[ra7751]

I would suggest doing blood work (primarily to check kidney function) and a cytology on the urine. A cytology is a "mini culture"....it won't tell the exact bacteria but it will show if there is bacteria in there. If there is excessive bacteria in the urine....I would probably use Convenia. This is a cephlosporin and is safe only as an injectable. As labeled, most treatments are a one time injection but with rabbits, I have found it should be dosed much more like penicillin. Very few vets know about using this drug in rabbits. I have used it in both domestic and wild rabbits as well as squirrels. My volunteer vet uses it in just about everything....even used it in a guinea pig. I know this probably isn't possible, but I would really like to see Ponazuril being used here too. I am treating on of my NZs right now for EC. She has been on the Ponazuril for a bit over a week and is hopping again with no urinary issues remaining. Will continue the Ponazuril on her.