Pellet debate..again

[Myia09]

I am debating pellets...AGAIN. I feel like the 1000th time.

It is because now I want to switch to Oxbow Organics that have no corn or soy. Regular oxbow still has soy in it.

Oxbow Organic:
Organic Grass Hay, Organic Canola Meal, Organic Wheat Straw, Organic Sunflower Meal, Organic Barley, Organic Flaxseed, Sodium Bentonite, Limestone, Sea Salt, L-Ascorbyl-2 Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Organic Dandelion Leaf, Organic Ground Rosemary, Inulin, Organic Cranberry, Organic Blueberry, Dried Yucca schidigera, Yeast Culture (dehydrated), Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Copper Sulfate, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin A Supplement, Folic Acid, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Proteinate, Riboflavin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Magnesium Sulfate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cobalt Carbonate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, and Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide.

Fiber: 23
Protein: 12
Cost: $160 for 50lbs

Oxbow Essentials:
Timothy Grass Meal, Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Soybean Meal, Cane Molasses, Salt, Limestone, Yeast Culture (Saccharomyces cerevisiae), Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement (Tocopherol), Vitamin C Supplement (Ascorbic Acid), Colloidal Silica, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Vitamin K), Riboflavin, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pantothenic Acid, Biotin, Thiamine, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Pyrodoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite, Magnesium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Cobalt Carbonate, Manganese Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Mineral Oil, Calcium Iodate, and Potassium Chloride.

Fiber:25
Protein: 14Cost: $70 for 50lbs

Purina:
Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Wheat Middlings, Ground Soybean Hulls, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Ground Corn, Wheat Flour, Cane Molasses, Ground Oat Hulls, Lignin Sulfonate, Salt, Monocalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Iron Oxide, L-Lysine, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Riboflavin, Vitamin A Supplement, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Dried Yeast, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Ferment Product, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Cobalt Carbonate, Manganese Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Zinc Sulfate, Dried Yucca Shidigera Extract, Copper Chloride, Dicalcium Phosphate, Monocalcium Phosphate.
Fiber17
Protein:16
Cost: $18 for 50lbs

Its obvious compared to oxbow, Purina just doesn't stand up. I wasn't even aware at how low of fiber and how high protein it has...
Does anyone with 2+ buns feed the organic? Has anyone else taken a good measurement how much pellets they go through in a month? I buy bulk so I haven't paid attention If I could make the organic last for 4-5 months it would be worth the price.
Just would like thoughts/imputs

 

[djluster]

What purina are you using in your comparison it looks to me like complete have you looked at show or professional. I guess the problem with the pro I's the corn, what about the fiber3 one they make or garden recipe
Just wondering if you looked at what was in those

 

[mishalaa]

Milled feeds begin losing their nutritional value three months after the mill date, which should always be printed somewhere on the bag. It is pretty much stale by six months. Also keep in mind that unless you purchase directly from the mill, it's usually already a month old by the time you get it. Freezing pellets does NOT preserve quality, it actually makes it worse.

I do not keep feed past four months, but usually try to plan buying two months' worth at a time, and I buy directly from the mill.

 

[Tate261]

Hello! I just switched over to the Oxbow Organics and I will NEVER switch to anything else. I have 2 rabbits- one that is a very picky eater and the other that has a sensitive tummy. This food has been awesome for both of them. I can't say enough how much the boys like it. I can see noticeable differences, especially in my rabbit who has food sensitivities.

 

[Myia09]

mishalla, I totally forgot about that..but now that might make it even MORE difficult to go organic.

There is no places that carry Fibre3 other than in small bags, which by then, I might as well do organic.

Rabbit Chow:
Crude Protein (Min)....................................................
Crude Fat (Min)..........................................................
Crude Fiber (Min).......................................................
Crude Fiber (Max)......................................................
Calcium (Ca) (Min).....................................................
Calcium (Ca) (Max)....................................................
Phosphorus (P) (Min)..................................................
Salt (NaCl) (Min)........................................................
Salt (NaCl) (Max) ......................................................
Vitamin A (Min).......................................................... 16.00%
1.50%
17.00%
20.00%
0.60%
1.10%
0.40%
0.50%
1.00%
4,650 IU/lb

INGREDIENTS
Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Wheat Middlings, Ground Soybean Hulls, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Ground Corn, Wheat Flour, Cane Molasses, Ground Oat Hulls, Lignin Sulfonate, Salt, Monocalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Iron Oxide, L-Lysine, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Riboflavin, Vitamin A Supplement, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Dried Yeast, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Ferment Product, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Cobalt Carbonate, Manganese Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Zinc Sulfate, Dried Yucca Shidigera Extract, Copper Chloride, Dicalcium Phosphate, Monocalcium Phosphate.

Rabbit Show:
Crude Protein (Min)....................................................
Crude Fat (Min)..........................................................
Crude Fiber (Min).......................................................
Crude Fiber (Max)......................................................
Calcium (Ca) (Min).....................................................
Calcium (Ca) (Max)....................................................
Phosphorus (P) (Min)..................................................
Salt (NaCl) (Min)........................................................
Salt (NaCl) (Max) ......................................................
Vitamin A (Min).......................................................... 16.00%
3.50%
18.50%
21.50%
0.70%
1.20%
0.40%
0.50%
1.00%
4,800 IU/lb

INGREDIENTS
Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Wheat Middlings, Ground Soybean Hulls, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Wheat Flour, Cane Molasses, Soybean Oil, Ground Oat Hulls, Lignin Sulfonate, Salt, Monocalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Iron Oxide, L-Lysine, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Riboflavin, Vitamin A Supplement, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Dried Yeast, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Ferment Product, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Cobalt Carbonate, Mang

Fiber3
Crude Protein (Min)....................................................
Crude Fat (Min)..........................................................
Crude Fiber (Min).......................................................
Crude Fiber (Max)......................................................
Calcium (Ca) (Min).....................................................
Calcium (Ca) (Max)....................................................
Phosphorus (P) (Min)..................................................
Salt (NaCl) (Min)........................................................
Salt (NaCl) (Max) ......................................................
Vitamin A (Min).......................................................... 15.00%
2.00%
20.00%
25.00%
0.80%
1.30%
0.50%
0.20%
0.70%
4,650 IU/lb

INGREDIENTS
Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Ground Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Cane Molasses, Ground Oat Hulls, Wheat Flour, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Soybean Oil, DL-Methionine, Iron Oxide, Copper Sulfate, DL-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Calcium Pantothenate, Nicotinic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin, Yeast Culture, Biotin, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Dried Yeast, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Ferment Product, Dried Yucca Shidigera Extract, Cholecalciferol, Cobalt Carbonate, Manganese Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Selenite.

 

[mishalaa]

Perhaps you can find someone to split the cost of a bag with and divide it? Or offer to sell by the pound what you won't use?

 

[Myia09]

What do you mean? Oxbow organics only carry 3lb bags, no need to split any extra. For 50lbs, it was included that I would buy 16 (yikes) bags. I use 50lbs as staple since purina comes in 50lb bags.

 

[fuzz16]

fibre3 i have heard some not so good things around here from breeders, they rabbits dont thrive very well off it

and i think it comes down to what is affordable to you. while health IS important, you still need to be realistic in what you can afford right now. if they are good on the oxbox then leave them on it, unless you for sure can afford the organic

 

[mishalaa]

Sorry, I thought it was $160 for one bag? (That actually didn't sound outrageous to me as I know what a 50lb bag of Oxbow's chinchilla feed costs.) And you wanted that to last you 5 months? I wasn't aware it was for 16 bags and that you'd go through 50lbs that quickly. =)

Either way, one bag or 16, you could maybe split the order with someone so you can still get the organics and not have so much go stale?

 

[GorbyJobRabbits]

do you feed hay? because then the fiber in the bag of feed isn't going to matter anyway.

I feed Penpals and LOVE it.

 

[Myia09]

Sorry mishala, we are confusing each other
Oxbow organics ONLY sell 3lb bags at 9.99 each. I estimate I go through 50lbs every 4-5 months (at six rabbits at 2/3 cups a night for each pair) So I would have to order 16 3lb bags to get 50lbs. I have already contacted oxbow and they do not carry organic in a larger bag.

I don't have to order 50lbs at a time, I was just using it as a lb reference to the others

Crystal, I had to laugh (not at you) at your comment...only because I am sure there are some people that don't feed hay unfortunately. I feed constant timothy and a handful of oat a day. But I have to completely disagree that the fiber doesn't matter in the pellet. Although I am more concerned about protein and fiber both.

At this point I am keeping them on regular oxbow and measuring how much I go through!

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Myia09 wrote:

Crystal, I had to laugh (not at you) at your comment...only because I am sure there are some people that don't feed hay unfortunately. I feed constant timothy and a handful of oat a day. But I have to completely disagree that the fiber doesn't matter in the pellet. Although I am more concerned about protein and fiber both.

Why do you disagree with Crystal's comment on the fiber content of the pellet? Is that based on the hay amount/types you're feeding or something else?

The most important thing in balancing a rabbit's diet is ensuring that they are getting all of the necessary vitamins, minerals, and nutrients necessary to keep them in good health. Balancing the diet is an overall process, it isn't divided. So for example, it is difficult to choose a pellet for your rabbits if you are only taking into account the pellet when, in fact, you also feed timothy hay, alfalfa hay, and romaine lettuce (just for example). Each of those foods will contribute to the diet together, not individually.

So Crystal was correct in saying that a low fiber content in a pellet is not necessarily a bad thing. If you supplement the diet with other sources of fiber, that will be enough. However, if you do not use any other sources of fiber in the diet, you will want to be looking at pellets that are higher in fiber.

High protein content is not always a bad thing either. For example, if most of the rabbit's diet other than pellets is just hay, they may not be gaining a lot of protein (depending on the hay). In this case, you will want a pellet that is higher in protein to ensure that you're meeting that area of need for your rabbit.

All in all, suggestions are very relative to the exact diet you're feeding. The most important thing is being aware of exactly what a rabbit needs nutritionally, which varies depending on the lifestyle of the rabbit. The general statement that says that a diet should be high in fiber and low in protein is very misleading because you can very quickly find the diet lacking in important nutrients.

 

[GorbyJobRabbits]

Thank you OakRidge.

 

[Myia09]

Saying fiber doesn't matter is not equal to saying a lower fiber level in a pellet isn't harmful.

I took Crystals comment as exactly as it was written "Fiber doesn't matter anyways." If you think I was being rude Crystal I apologize-but I wasn't. I was stating an opinion that I feel the nutritional analysis is extremley important.

I am a firm pellet as treat type deal, but I disagree that the fiber isn't important just because I free feed hay. What is in your pellet and the nutritional analysis is just as important for all foods you feed to your rabbit and/or animal. So just because I feed a well balanced diet doesn't mean I can feed crap pellets because it all evens out

I feed unlimited timothy hay, a hanful of oat hay, a cup of dried flowers (rose, dandilion, hibiscus), 2 cups per bunny of veggies (green/red leaf, cilantro, parsley, romaine), and then 1/2 cup per pair of rabbits + treats a day.

As for protien, I don't beleive any pet rabbit, even with such small amounts of pellets, should be getting 17% protien or anything above 14%. But seeing your both breeders, your rabbits need more protien around 18 to 19 percent for lactation.However, for a pet rabbit, it is noted in numerous souces (For example, the textbook of rabbit medicine) that higher protein reduces the rabbits appetite for cecals, as well as produces more ammonia and waste, (and not to mention high protein can lead to obesity)

The main reason why a rabbit would not be getting enough protein from its hay if it is mature hay as grass loses the value of its amino acids through age. But with veggies and hay, my rabbits are getting enough amino acids, which is why I was so cautious about the protien levels in the pellets.

Lets not even get into the argument adult female rabbits shouldn't get alfalfa due to high calcium contents and then we can do a whole other Purina vs Oxbow debate.

So while Oakridge, I compeltely agree with your last statement, there were no suggestions made to me actually, but in the end pet or breeder the lack of concern of fiber in a pellet for either pet or breeder is disconcerning, for giving anyone the advice that it is okay to use a low fiber pellet just because you feed hay (which lets use your example of taking in a individual rabbits needs-a rabbit may not eat a lot of hay, especially in a breeder situation where hay is limited, in a feeder bin, used as bedding/litter, ect) is incorrect. Not trying to be rude, but since fiber is the most important thing in a rabbit's diet, I wouldn't ever suggest that the fiber content is not important.

Or lets just put it in the nice way-I will take the safe route and feed high fiber pellets just in case.

 

[tamsin]

I think the issue is usually that dry foods with low fibre tend to have higher protein, and it's the higher protein that causes the issue rather than the lower fibre (in cases where you're feeding 80-90% hay and only a small portion of pellets).

You can also adjust for different protein levels with the volume of food so someone that feeds x amount of 12% protein food might find their bunnies don't keep weight/condition where as someone that feeds the same food but slightly more of it finds their buns stay in great condition.

In terms of the % of total fibre volume (dry food/hay/veggies) the volume that comes from dry food is quite small, so the difference between say 18% or a small volume and 25% of a small volume is not as much as protein, of which a higher volume comes from pellets. So I would agree that as long as the fibre level is reasonable in the pellets eg 18%+ then, for most rabbits, it's not as important an issue as protein as long as the majority of their diet is hay.

I feed approximately 10-15g of pellets (14% protein/19% fibre) per 1kg of body weight (for healthy neutered adults). Alongside hay/grass/veggies.

I don't know how that translates to cups, I find weight more accurate though as different shaped pellets pack more/less condensely into a cup

Presuming you have six, average sized rabbits (2.5kg/5-6lb each) then 50lb of food should last approx. 146 days (4 months and 3 weeks).

 

[gmas rabbit]

Finding the above discussion very helpful and educational. Just changed Benjamin to timothy pellets at 16 months. Until I came to this forum I was not aware that alfalfa could have too high a calcium content and fat for an adult rabbit. I found Oxbow Adult timothy pellets in our local pet store, have not seen the organic ones. Changed him to timothy hay from alfalfa but he hates it. Noticed that some of you are using oat hay. Any other suggestions, or will he adjust in time?

 

[tamsin]

Try mixing the two types together for awhile and hopefully he'll start munching more on the Timothy and you can gradually degree the proportion of alfalfa.

 

[Myia09]

Hmm yeah 10lbs doesn't sound right either! lol, but thanks tamsin. I will just have to keep a very strict eye on how much I go through.

Mine didn't like the switch either, they like the alfalfa which is like candy to them. But they got over it It was oxbow or nothing, LOL. Then they started looking forward to pellets again.

 

[mishalaa]

I understand you now, Myia, sorry about that! Disregard what I said. Other than don't buy too much at once. =p =)

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Myia, you'll be happy to know that I don't limit hay just because I have some show rabbits. My previous comments were not biased from a breeder's perspective, but rather general statements about balancing a diet for any animal. There is no reason that a breeder should limit hay without a dietary reason for it, just like any other rabbit owner. I have both pets and show rabbits, and they are fed very similar diets with only minor modifications based on age, growth, etc. The general nutritional requirements are the same.

Just like protein content should be monitored, too much fiber can cause dietary deficiencies too. So I was just recommending that those who are considering diet changes take into account the overall intake of the rabbit when considering a pellet. If each part of the rabbit's diet is the highest in fiber possible, your rabbit will be lacking in other areas. I can't speak for Crystal, but figured that this is what she was trying to get across. The pellet chosen should compliment the rest of the diet, whatever it may be. If the diet is very high in fiber elsewhere, the fiber content won't be the most important element in the pellet. Instead, you'd be looking for the appropriate vitamins, minerals, protein, etc. to supplement that otherwise high-fiber diet.

So basically, what I was trying to say was that we're unable to give you a good evaluation of which pellet and amounts might be best for your rabbit's diet solely based on the pellet ingredients. Unless, of course, the rabbit was on a pellet-only diet. Usually when you're able to look at the bigger picture, it is possible to balance a diet to include an affordable pellet (whatever you decide is within your range).