Pasteurella...?

[tinyrabbits]

I have a tiny rabbitry. I've only recently started breeding rabbits about 2 years ago. 2 weeks ago I had 10 rabbits. 5 Netherland Dwarfs, 2 Mini Rex, 3 mix breeds. The nethies are my breeding stock (1 buck, 4 does) Last year I had one of my mixes to the vet because he had tough, leathery skin and flakes. They didn't say anything about the skin, but did a scraping and found he had furmites. They also told me he had a bacterial infection. (From the back end) He was on antibiotics. A few months later I noticed the discharge again. Around the same time, my most expensive herd doe began sneezing. Just occasionally. This was around the time of her second litter. I had her in a solid bottomed cage, and her new water bottle leaked, causing a very wet rabbit and 4 dead babies. (It was a litter of 7) I sold 2 of the babies (along with another doe) and kept one for myself.

Early this year she started to sneeze white snot. Normally when I gave her hay. Obviously grasping at straws, I stopped giving her hay, the snot disappeared, and I bred her. 2 Weeks ago I noticed one of my mixed girls had very soft poop. So, I picked her up and noticed slight matting on the inside of her front legs. I checked the mix who had been sick initially, and found matting & missing fur from front and back legs, and a swollen testicle. I took him the vet and had him euthanized. I checked all the other rabbits, all with varying degrees of matting inside their front legs.

My doe has 6 babies. I weaned them at 4 weeks and took her to my parents place. Everytime I check on her, the matting seems to be worse, so I have made an appointment to have her euthanized this coming Thursday.
Monday I purchased the 2 babies and doe back that I had sold last year. I figured if my rabbits were sick, I could use these ones later. They have had absolutely no contact with the other rabbits. But I noticed that they also have slight matting.

Are my rabbitry days over? Am I going to lose my whole herd? What could cause the rear discharge and the leathery skin in the mix? Does pasteurella cause problems with GI tract?

2 of the rabbits have decreased appetite. One of the babies appears to have "nest box eye". Is this a symptom? Should I remove it now?

I know this post is kind of all over the place, but it's all I think about.

 

[ChocoClover]

Oh I feel so bad for you. You're losing lots of rabbits.

Doesn't really sound like pasteurella. Take one to the vet to see if it is treatable. If it is, great! If not, well... You might need some new breeding stock.

My rabbits have had matting before from urine burn.

 

[JBun]

White snot does mean a bacterial infection,. but whether or not it is pasteurella would take the vet doing a culture. Unfortunately once a rabbit has pasteurella it usually never completely goes away, though if not too severe antibiotic treatment can often keep it under control. But as for breeding/showing, rabbits with pasteurella should never be used for that again and need to be kept carefully quarantined from other healthy breeding/showing rabbits.

An upper respiratory infection can lead to loss of appetite if it becomes severe, as it affects a rabbits breathing, as well as the possibility the infection has spread and may be causing pain.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Respiratory/Bacterial/URI.htm

Nestbox eye can usually be cleared right up with antibiotic eye drops. As for the rear discharge, you need to be a bit more specific. Is it urine or poop and what were the symptoms involved? And the leathery skin could have been due to the furmites.

 

[squidpop]

This is all just my opinion and what I would do if I where in your shoes.

I would ask as many people as possible who have rabbits in your area which vet is the best and most rabbit savvy, and then go to that vet.

I would take a huge step back and analyse what you are feeding over all, make sure theres nothing like mold in your hay or salmonella in your water, and make sure their diet is good. (I know some rabbits sneeze because of hay but usually there's something else wrong besides the hay). Since you've got diarrhea you need your rabbits to clear their digestive systems by eating really good hay.

I think if you've got diarrhea in most of your rabbits, including babies, I would get toltrazuril which is the same ingredient as is in Marquis Ponaziril, and treat for coccidiosis, worms etc... as described in this quote:
Intestial Parasites (( http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/poop.html))

""As mentioned before, coccidial infection is common in some areas, and some vets will simply treat a baby rabbit's diarrhea as coccidia, even without a fecal test. Common antibiotics used to treat coccidia include Albon (sulfadimethoxine) and the potentiated sulfas, such as Trimethoprim Sulfa (TMZ) or Bactrim. However, we have found a more recently developed drug, ponazuril to be far superior to the aforementioned sulfa antibiotics. It eliminates the parasites in a matter of days, rather than weeks.""​

I would take the doe that you like best with the advanced sneezing symptoms to the rabbit savvy vet, and get the culture test from her- then hopefully you will know which antibiotic to use on your herd. If you are having her put to sleep anyway the could even do a biopsy and hopefully get a even better idea of what the bug is.

This is all just my opinion but... Since more than a few rabbits are involved, If you do treat with antibiotics I would tell the vet you would rather treat aggessively with stronger antibiotics since it seems to be a do or die situation.

As far as treating sneezing, I have had 2 different cases of sneezing and white snot in three separate rabbits. My vet treated with Azithromycin/Zithromax and they seem cured. One has been free of symptoms for more than a year and the other two have been fine since they where treated 7 months ago. Azithromycin/Zithromax is a stronger antibiotic and some have reported digestive upset (bad reactions) in their rabbits but my rabbits had no stomach upset after being treated.

As far as treating snuffles and Pasteurella symptoms, this link might be helpful to read- the advice comes from someone who has worked in a rabbit rescue for many years and he mentions a lot about treatments that have worked for him.

 

[squidpop]

Sorry, I didn't post the last link I mentioned about treating pasteurella here it is...
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2008/11/Fluid-Lungs.htm

 

[tinyrabbits]

Hi, thanks everyone for replying so quickly!

There is only one rabbit with the soft poop. (She is 8) The 2 that have decreased appetite are young BEW ND. The one that had the snotty nose is also BEW ND. The food they were eating was very powdery, so I bought food from a different place, which seems much better. I have a new bale of hay. I took all the cages out of the building and cleaned them with a bleach solution and then I cleaned the inside of the building incase it was dust bothering them. The rear discharge in the other rabbit wasn't poop. It was clear, all down the insides of his back legs, and fur was missing. The vet said it was a "bacterial infection". That was it.

I was told that doing a culture for pasteurella would almost always come back positive because most rabbits carry the bacteria. So is there any point in doing so?

Should I hold off getting my doe euthanized?

I really appreciate all your feedback.

 

[majorv]

Hmmm, I would get the snot tested anyway. I view this more like Jenny does. I would not keep a rabbit who's blowing snot. I don't even want to go there because of the horror stories I've heard from other breeders.

We almost bought a rabbit from a breeder friend not long ago because she was the offspring of a rabbit we had sold her...we wanted that line back. When we found out she had white snot we changed our mind. We found out later that someone else bought her and ended up putting her down because of this.

There is a new vaccine for pasteurella but we're waiting for more test results before getting it. It's more of a preventative to give before a rabbit is exposed.

 

[squidpop]

That's good that the others don't have mushy poo. But just as a routine,if you have more than a few rabbits, I would treat with a good all round worm and coccidosis treatment 1 - 2 times a year with either fendabenzole or toltrazuril (they treat both protozoa and worms and a lot of rabbitries do it as a routine thing...

But it sounds like the snuffles is the biggest issue. So, to answer your question, I would not put down the doe I would treat her, because that's actually what I did when it happened to me. I think if you get a really great vet, it can be cured. It may not even be pasteurella. The medirabbit page on respiratory infections in rabbits lists 7 other bacteria that can cause snuffles besides pasteurella, and many of those bacteria respond well to antibiotics, so I think it worth a shot to treat.

But because treatment depends so much on getting the right antibiotic, I wouldn't go to a regular vet to treat a rabbit with anything as tricky as a respiratory infection. Regular vets mostly treat cats and dogs, and rabbits are not remotely like cats or dogs- they are more like miniature horses, eat hay not meat etc... and need different antibiotics. Rabbit savvy vets (or vets that specialize in exotics) are more familiar with newer antibiotics that work on rabbits and understand the doses better. So, if you can find a really good rabbit savvy vet I would definitely treat.

As far as getting a culture goes, I know I said you should get one but what you said is true, I've also heard they are somewhat inconclusive- however a lot of people I view as being experts say you should get them, really its up to you. When my rabbit got snuffles symptoms my vet didn't get a culture and prescribed Azithromycin and told me that if it didn't work the next thing we would try was injectable bicillin, so she took a more trial and error approach, without a culture.

 

[majorv]

You do what you think is best, but if you plan to start a rabbitry for showing/breeding, you must start with healthy stock and be very critical of what rabbits you bring in and expose your healthy rabbits to. We've been careful and never had this problem. We've put too much into this to lose what we have, as well as our reputation for having healthy rabbits.

 

[squidpop]

Just to answer two of your other questions.

With one baby having nestbox eye, that's fairly common and first thing I would do is: boil 1/2 cup water and add 1/4 teaspoon of salt (or slightly less) and two black teabags. Let it cool and saturate a cotton ball and drip some into the eye and wait a few minutes and then dry and clean it off the baby, put baby back in nest. If its not better by day 3 or if it gets worse, I would either take it to the vet and get some medicated eyedrops or if money was tight I would purchase some terramycin eye ointment over the counter.

You asked if pasteurella causes problems with the GI tract. I think GI tract symptoms probably are caused mostly by other bugs like, coccidiosis, or e. coli, or even just an imbalance of good vs bad bacteria in the digestive tract. Feeding more hay and giving probiotics like Benebac are routine things to try early on, for things like mushy poo, or loose stools.

When rabbits have lots of mucous that's mucoid enteritis, which I understand is caused by bad bacteria like e.coli getting into the gut and wiping out the good bacteria. If you only had one rabbit that had it, maybe just that one rabbit somehow got some grass or something that had some e. coli on it. It wouldn't have been caused by pasteurella.

 

[tinyrabbits]

So, should I deworm them all?

 

[squidpop]

So, should I deworm them all?

In my opinion if you haven't wormed them all in the last 6 months you should worm as a routine. But the questions are, are the babies old enough to worm? and which wormer to use. Some wormers do just worms and mites, some do worms, mites and protozoa.

This link below, explains some of the wormers. The first one it mentions is Fenbendazole Safeguard goat wormer and it tells you the dosage. The fenbendazole is supposed to be pretty easy on their system, plus it works on worms and protozoa and isn't too expensive. I used the fenbendazole on my six week old babies and had no problems. If you read the safety sheet for fenbendazole it also seems to indicate it can be used with antibiotics safely. So if you have to treat with antibiotics it indicates it is safe (I'm not a vet though, so you need to weigh the options and choose for yourself or get vet advice)
http://luvlops.com/care/needs/

 

[tinyrabbits]

Thanks! The babies are almost 7 weeks old. I'll pick up some wormer Monday.

 

[tinyrabbits]

Ok, so my husband is at the feed store now and they don't have goat dewormer. All they have is horse dewormer. He says it's good for 1200lb animal. How would I measure out something like that?

 

[majorv]

You can't really get an accurate dosing with Safeguard horse worker because it's a paste and can't be measured good. I know some who use it and dose with a pea size amount, but I much prefer the liquid goat wormer. If you didn't get the paste you might call around and see who has the liquid. In our area, feed stores as well as Tractor Supply usually carries it.

 

[tinyrabbits]

Ok, so I finally got to speak to a vet yesterday and said they could do a blood test that would test for pasteurella as well as 4 other things. How accurate are these tests? I thought pasteurella was located in the nasal passage?

 

[squidpop]

That's seems a little weird to me. I've never heard of a blood test for pasteurella but perhaps its a new thing? Maybe someone else on here will know.

 

[squidpop]

I just searched and found something that says they can do "Serological tests" to blood for antibodies against Pasteurella, maybe that is what your vet is doing.

http://www.celebratingrabbits.com/stories/pasteurella.html

Culture and Sensitivity, PCR, and Serological Tests

A culture and sensitivity test can help a vet determine if the infectious agent is Pasteurella. However, there are difficulties with this test. Sedation will most likely be required, and it can be difficult (sometimes impossible) to obtain a bacteria sample. The bacteria may be far back into the nasal passage, sometimes resulting in a false negative. In addition, P. multocida does not survive well outside the host and may not grow in the lab; or if the culture is positive for the bacterium, it may not be possible to determine the strain. Despite these apparent drawbacks, a veterinarian experienced in treating rabbits will provide the best advice for your particular bunny.

Are there alternatives? Dr. Meredith discusses two additional tests:

A PCR (polymerase chain reaction) test accurately detects the presence of P. multocida DNA in a sample. This can be very useful as it gives an accurate indication that P. multocida is present in an active infection. It also has the advantage of being able to be used on both live and dead bacteria.

Serological tests look for the presence in the blood of antibodies against P. multocida. However, these can be difficult to interpret as many rabbits will have been exposed to Pasteurella and have antibodies, but the bacteria may not be the cause of the disease. Additionally, serology results often take weeks to obtain.

 

[majorv]

Pasteurella is kind of like EC, many rabbits have been exposed to it and it will show up in a blood test...but that doesn't necessarily mean that they have an active infection. For EC, blood titers show that, and I would think a culture of the white discharge is needed to show whether it's pasteurella or not.

 

[tinyrabbits]

Ok, so...should I still get the blood test done?