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Oscar and Pannacur (please read you may help)

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jemm

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Hi thanks or taking the time to read this could do with some help/advice. Oscar is a 4 year old lop (not sure exactly what) last year he had a bout of Myxi which thankfully he got over and that is another story. Anyways in may/june time I noticed that he was getting a bit wet and mucky underneath, to be exact it was to the side of his (not sure how to say this politely) where he wees and poops out of i'am not rabbit expert so sorry for the lack of technical vocab. Anyway as time went on he started to loose the fur in that area and he got red and sore. took him to the vet and to be honest she took about 10 seconds to decide he had an infection gave me so baytrill and sent us away. Well after about a week i had to take him back as he wasn't any better now i don't know if it was because he had lost the fur but to me it looked like he was really swollen in that area i spoke of earlier so was thinking is he peeing normally but because he was swollen on that side was he peeing on himself and causing the urine scald. So back to the vet, thankfully this time the vet seemed a little more interested she said she had kept buns herself so at least was going to do a more detailed job. She said he had a parasite and urine scald, so she took him away gave him a butt bath clipped his fur we were sent home with pannacur and some steroid cream she said 28 days on the pannacur twice a day butt bath and apply the cream. Well after a few days I saw a great difference he cleared up, the redness went and it seemed as he wasn't peeing on himself anymore and his fur started to grow back so after the 28 days the pannacur stopped and all seemed well. So about a week ago I started to see the same symptoms again swollen looking red and the fur starting to go. did try to take a closer look this time It feels a little hard under the skin but I don't know if thats normal his bones or just his anatomy any way having been on the pannacur and cream for just a couple of days he seems to be clearing up again. I am really stumped what was he given pannacur for, I assume for worms, is 28 days enough to kill the worm, should I have kept him on it for longer and if it is a worm would that cause him to pee on himself i.e. swelling in that area ? i just don't know he lives with another bum who is female, she has never shown any symptoms and it fit and well. So thanks for reading my long rant if you have any ideas or can offer any advice I would appreciate it I think I will take him ask for the rabbit savvy vet and see if she can get to the bottom of it I do think though it could be a hangover from his myxi episode

regards

Jemm
 

DogCatMom

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Could you please put some paragraph breaks into your message? I can't read that long a Wall of Words; my eyes jump around too much. thx
 

jemm

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sorry, broken down a bit now

Oscar and Pannacur (please read you may help)
Hi thanks or taking the time to read this could do with some help/advice. Oscar is a 4 year old lop (not sure exactly what) last year he had a bout of Myxi which thankfully he got over and that is another story.

Anyways in may/june time I noticed that he was getting a bit wet and mucky underneath, to be exact it was to the side of his (not sure how to say this politely) where he wees and poops out of i'am not rabbit expert so sorry for the lack of technical vocab. Anyway as time went on he started to loose the fur in that area and he got red and sore. took him to the vet and to be honest she took about 10 seconds to decide he had an infection gave me so baytrill and sent us away.

Well after about a week i had to take him back as he wasn't any better now i don't know if it was because he had lost the fur but to me it looked like he was really swollen in that area i spoke of earlier so was thinking is he peeing normally but because he was swollen on that side was he peeing on himself and causing the urine scald. So back to the vet, thankfully this time the vet seemed a little more interested she said she had kept buns herself so at least was going to do a more detailed job. She said he had a parasite and urine scald, so she took him away gave him a butt bath clipped his fur we were sent home with pannacur and some steroid cream she said 28 days on the pannacur twice a day butt bath and apply the cream.

Well after a few days I saw a great difference he cleared up, the redness went and it seemed as he wasn't peeing on himself anymore and his fur started to grow back so after the 28 days the pannacur stopped and all seemed well. So about a week ago I started to see the same symptoms again swollen looking red and the fur starting to go. did try to take a closer look this time It feels a little hard under the skin but I don't know if thats normal his bones or just his anatomy any way having been on the pannacur and cream for just a couple of days he seems to be clearing up again. I am really stumped what was he given pannacur for, I assume for worms, is 28 days enough to kill the worm, should I have kept him on it for longer and if it is a worm would that cause him to pee on himself i.e. swelling in that area ?

I just don't know he lives with another bum who is female, she has never shown any symptoms and it fit and well. So thanks for reading my long rant if you have any ideas or can offer any advice I would appreciate it I think I will take him ask for the rabbit savvy vet and see if she can get to the bottom of it I do think though it could be a hangover from his myxi episode

regards

Jemm
 

nora123

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Hi has he got diarhoea? as ive only been adviced to give panacur if my rabbits have had an head tilt, or back leg paralysis, or as a preventative measure for ecuniculi a mite infestation that can affect the brain etc so sorry not sure what to suggest maybe someone else could advice you more if your bunny is wet below and has mucky bum.could it be his diet?
 

jemm

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Hi has he got diarhoea? as ive only been adviced to give panacur if my rabbits have had an head tilt, or back leg paralysis, or as a preventative measure for ecuniculi a mite infestation that can affect the brain etc so sorry not sure what to suggest maybe someone else could advice you more if your bunny is wet below and has mucky bum.could it be his diet?
Hi Nora thanks for replying, he is pooping fine no diahera he's not mucky as in poop just wet, the vet said she thought he had a parasite and put him on the pannacur she didn't elaborate any more as to what it could be
 

JBun

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It's most likely the parasite the vet was referring to was e. cuniculi. Along with head tilt and hind limb paralysis, it can also cause kidney problems which result in urinary problems. Did the vet do any blood or urine tests, to check for e. cuniculi, or other urinary problems like a UTI, kidney problems not having to do with EC, or bladder stones/sludge issues?

You actually have some excellent rabbit vets in the UK, like Francis Harcourt Brown, I've read good things about Simon Maddock, so if you aren't satisfied with your current vet, you may want to see if there is another good rabbit vet near you. A good vet can really make a difference.

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/urinary.html
 

majorv

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I'm curious to know what the vet saw that she felt he may have EC, which is why the Panacur was prescribed, and then to prescribe it again. Once/day for 28 days is the normal course of treatment for the Panacur.

We had one doe with urine scald and she was given Baytril and a steroid cream. Between the two it went away and never came back. It may be that a different antibiotic might be needed for his possible UTI.
 

Maureen Las

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E-cuniculi is not actually a worm but is a protozoan parasite . Rabbits usually contract it in utero from their mothers and/or contract it from contact with the spores in the urine of infected rabbits. Most rabbit have been exposed to EC but do not exhibit clinical signs . The immune system is able to keep the disease in check.

If your rabbit has responded positively to fenbendazole ( Panacur) then your rabbit most likely has an EC infection. Several blood titers could be done to see if the levels are rising or falling to get a more definite diagnosis but are not always reliable.
Often the initial symptoms of EC are a stumbling or dragging of a hind leg but symptoms also include urinary tract issues ( without bacteria being present)

There is another drug called Ponazuril ( Marquis) that has been used to treat an encephalitis type protozoan disease in horses. Some more updated rabbit experts now use it in the treatment of E-cuniculi in rabbits.
It is more costly then Panacur but if you know someone with horses you may be able to get a small amount of it from them ... I believe that you can order this drug on-line also ...will look.
I would definitely ask your vet to look took in to the use of Ponazuril.
 

Maureen Las

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I found an online compounding veterinary pharmacy that compounds ponazuril . We have a pharmacy similar to this in my town but they are getting harder to find.
I believe most folks dose/use the product made for horses.



http://www.svpmeds.net/ponazuril.html


There is a therapeutic review of Ponazuril on-line ( sorry I could not copy and paste it) by Mark Mitchell DVM that might be something that your vet would want to read.
 

jemm

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Thank you every one for your help, lucidly Oscar isn't showing any ill effects so I think a trip to the vet next week and maybe the blood tests and see about the titters count, thanks everyone and I will be back with an update

Regards

J
 

majorv

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Given the information the OP provided I'm not sure why EC was suspected, but it's very possible the vet saw something that wasn't mentioned in the post. I think fenbendazole is still considered the first line treatment for EC. It's easy on the GI tract, cheap and easy to buy. After doing some reading, I wouldn't use Ponazuril as a treatment unless there was proof of EC - through blood titers or obvious, multiple symptoms - and the fenbendazole didn't work. That stuff is pretty darn expensive! :shock:
 

tonyshuman

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I think the reason we suspected EC is because no other parasites come to mind for urinary tract symptoms. Since Panacur was leading to some improvement, there is probably a parasite involved, as Panacur is an antiparasitic drug. EC does have some urinary symptoms, and Panacur has been shown to treat EC in some cases. Maybe there was something additional going on. Sometimes rabbits will pee on themselves if they are in pain from something else, and the whole messy business in his genital region sounds like a potential spot for a bacterial or fungal skin infection to develop, so if those are still around after a good, long treatment with Panacur, something else needs to be tried.
 

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