New F1 Lionhead litter!!

[Bunnybarn123]

Hi all,



I know that since there are so many Lionheads out there now, alot ofpeople are not breeding within the hybrid guidlines anymore. Well I didbreed a hybrid litter and WOW, I knew my rew Jersey Wooly was throwingme some incredible colors and I wanted to get some of the colors in myLionhead lines. So I took the chance and I bred my rew brood doe(JW)with my Double maned lionhead (tort) to get these colors. Well shekindled earlier this evening and boy was I surprised she deliverednine....yes nine fat healthy looking kits in a whole variety of colors.I have had one litter of purebred kits born with 9 once but 1 had beendoa. Now Ruby has had large JW litters for me, but that had been 7 with1 doa. I am hoping she can do well with this litter. Prince Simba is myfavorite buck and so this is exciting. As soon as I can get pics I willpost them

Pam

 

[bluebird]

I am looking forward too seeing the babies.bluebird

 

I read this last night and puzzeled it over and over ,

Is there any reason why you crossed ina Jersey Wooly with the Lion Head ?wouldnt this give you a overly wooled Lion Head? Can you give us abetter explanation as to whythis particular cross ?

 

[Usagimimi]

Sounds interesting! I can't wait to see them!

 

[Starlight Rabbitry]

gypsy wrote:

I read this last night and puzzeled itover and over ,

Is there any reason why you crossed ina Jersey Wooly with the Lion Head ?wouldnt this give you a overly wooled Lion Head? Can you give us abetter explanation as to whythis particular cross ?

This may help...I found this in the North American Lionhead Website:

Since there were so few Lionheads in the UnitedStates and many lack any uniform type or size some breeders began tocross the Lionhead Rabbit to various other small breeds. A number ofbreeds where used, including Netherland Dwarf, Britannia Petite,Polish, Holland Lop, and Florida Whites. Since then other breeders,throughout the country have added Jersey Wooly, Dutch, Mini Rex,American Fuzzy Lop, and even New Zealands to the breeds used forhybridization. This was done not only a way to broaden the gene pool,but to correct some of the differences between the European Standardand the United States Proposed Standard. When crossbreeding, hopefullybreeders are only using quality rabbits to improve the breed where theyfeel it needs improvement.

I personally don't agree with this because thiscauses the lionheads to not breed true. This is going to hurtin the long run but hey, I could be wrong.

Sharon

 

[TinysMom]

Starlight Rabbitry wrote:

gypsy wrote:

Iread this last night and puzzeled it over and over,

Is there any reason why you crossed ina Jersey Wooly with the Lion Head ?wouldnt this give you a overly wooled Lion Head? Can you give us abetter explanation as to whythis particular cross ?

This may help...I found this in the North American Lionhead Website:

Since there were so few Lionheads in the UnitedStates and many lack any uniform type or size some breeders began tocross the Lionhead Rabbit to various other small breeds. A number ofbreeds where used, including Netherland Dwarf, Britannia Petite,Polish, Holland Lop, and Florida Whites. Since then other breeders,throughout the country have added Jersey Wooly, Dutch, Mini Rex,American Fuzzy Lop, and even New Zealands to the breeds used forhybridization. This was done not only a way to broaden the gene pool,but to correct some of the differences between the European Standardand the United States Proposed Standard. When crossbreeding, hopefullybreeders are only using quality rabbits to improve the breed where theyfeel it needs improvement.

I personally don't agree with this because thiscauses the lionheads to not breed true. This is going to hurtin the long run but hey, I could be wrong.

Sharon

There has been a lot of discussion lately on breeding like this on alionhead breeders' list that I'm on. It isn't recommended tobreed with JW....and in fact, there are SO MANY good lionhead lines outthere now that folks really don't need to do hybrids (although some arestill doing them and they turn out very well).

It does seem like a cross with a JW will produce a rabbit with too muchwool according to the latest standards. In fact, that seemsto be why many have crossed with Netherland Dwarfs...to get the right"type" but somewhat less wool.

Nevertheless, congrats on your litter. We're on our 9thlitter (would be 10th but we lost a whole litter a couple of weeksago). It is so much fun to see them grow.

Peg

P.S. Although I breed lionheads, I'm really not that familiarwith thevarious crosses that can be done or have been done(although I am learning). I started my herd with allpurebreds ~ some from the top bloodlines. That's why I reallycan't say much about cross-breeding as I have no experience with it!

 

[TinysMom]

Just to add - the current colors listed on the certificate of development are:

REW (Red Eyed White)

Chestnut

Siamese Sable

Tortoise

Black

The other three certificates of development include 4 of those fivecolors - plus one adds fawn, another adds orange and another adds sablepoint - for a total of 8 colors they hope to get through ARBAeventually.

If Arden Wetzel passes this year's presentation, only the colors that pass will be considered showable.....

 

[Starlight Rabbitry]

And if he doesn't pass this year, the certificate passes to the next holder in line and they have to start all over again.

 

[pamnock]

Using JW to cross with Lionheads will producewooled carriers and future crosses will produce some completelywooled"Teddies" in the lines.

I hope they make some changes in the standard. I judged somebeautiful Lions over the weekend and had to DQ every single one on thetable (except for one) because of excessive flank wool on the seniorsand wool between the eyes. I don't like having to use astandard that forces me to DQ every entry on the table The current standard is also going to force exhibitors to illegallypluck out flanks and faces in order to get showable rabbits.



Pam

 

Oh wow thatcertainly sounds like a head banger for sure .Thanks for the explinations . I hopehe passes and no one has to restart allover.

Oh Pam thats an awfull thought, I am so sorry you had to go throughthat this weekend . That has to be hard onyou. Is the over woolingonthe flanks easily noticedbythe breeder or isit something Mostly a Judge would pick upon ?

 

[TinysMom]

Starlight Rabbitry wrote:

And if he doesn't pass this year, the certificate passes tothe next holder in line and they have to start all over again.

Actually, it is my understanding that if Arden doesn't pass - next yearGail Gibbons (Cimmaron) presents. It has something to do withthe fact that they're "Grandfathered in" because they filed forcertificates at the same time or something....I don't know the fullscoop.

I do know that if Arden feels he can't pass - Gail is prepared to present though ~ this year if need be.

I'm torn - I want Arden to present because I want siamese sable to beshowable....but if he doesn't present and Gail presents...the sablepoint will hopefully be showable. I like sable point but Ithink I like siamese sable more..

Peg

 

[TinysMom]

pamnock wrote:

Using JW to cross with Lionheads will produce wooledcarriers and future crosses will produce some completelywooled"Teddies" in the lines.

I hope they make some changes in the standard. I judged somebeautiful Lions over the weekend and had to DQ every single one on thetable (except for one) because of excessive flank wool on the seniorsand wool between the eyes. I don't like having to use astandard that forces me to DQ every entry on the table The current standard is also going to force exhibitors to illegallypluck out flanks and faces in order to get showable rabbits.



Pam

I'm assuming you had the newest standard from this June....with the drawings on it.

Can you remember the lionheads you liked the best...who they were from?

Just curious as I *may* try to add new bloodlines after the first ofthe year. Right now I've got DJ's and Prideland's andCimmaron's (the big ones) - and Pridelands is my hands down favorite Ithink. But I'm thinking about adding some from the EastCoast...maybe..

Peg

 

[pamnock]

gypsy wrote:

Oh wow thatcertainly sounds like a head banger for sure .Thanks for the explinations . I hopehe passes and no one has to restart allover.

Oh Pam thats an awfull thought, I am so sorry you had to go throughthat this weekend . That has to be hard onyou. Is the over woolingonthe flanks easily noticedbythe breeder or isit something Mostly a Judge would pick upon ?

The excessive flank wool is obvious and the standard includes a veryspecific drawing in what they consider to be "excessive". Theproblem is, those with heavy flank wool generally hold their manesbetter. If you loose all the flank wool, you often also loosethe mane. The current standard is not specific about DQingfor the complete lack of a mane like the very first standardwas. It can be very frustrating to judge this breed becauseof the way their standard is written. I think they shouldseverely fault flank wool and wool between the eyes -- not DQ for itunless the wool extends over the back or down to the muzzle.

The lions were one of the last breeds of the day, so it did give me anopportunity to discuss the standard in length with the breeders andhear their opinions on breeding to the proposed standard.

Pam

 

[TinysMom]

gypsy wrote:

Is the over woolingonthe flanks easily noticedbythe breeder or isit something Mostly a Judge would pick upon ?

Well, I'm a new breeder and I sort of think I would pick up onit....here is a link to the standard so you can see the drawings foryourself. I have several that I know would be DQ'd if theykeep this much wool in 3 months - and others that I know wouldn't beDQ'd..

http://www.lionheadrabbit.net/wetzelstandard05.htm

I must say that I feel like my single-mane lionheads have the bestchance on the showtable as juniors. Since their dad (singlemane) has kept his mane and he's 18 months old (it keeps coming infuller and fuller every time he molts), I'm thinking theyhave a good chance of keeping their manes.

Peg

 

Thanks Peg , Cassi now has 2 of those, um mm) Carolyn said I have to be nice, lol) Lion Heads , a Blacknd I believe its a Sable point , Im not sure .

 

[Bunnybarn123]

Okay,

Let me give a background on the reason why I have crossed thisparticular pair. Ruby is a purebred Jersey Wooly but has always beenused as a brood doe. Her Wool is not the right (struggling for theright word) density. She has very flat wool. I bought her when I wasstarting in Jersey Wooly. She has tiny ears and a big bold head for aJW. Now I had done a cross last year when I first started out and thekits by her and a rew Lionhead were very beautiful. Only 3 in thatfirst litter. I did not keep one at that time and all were placed inPet Only homes where I have seen 1 in very loving human parent homes.He is not in the least bit overly wooly, he even has the clean breakbetween the eyes (Jerseys have no wool on their faces). Well back to mystory, we recently had to move as our house was broken into. The stupidpeople let my hubbys dogs into the house for whatever reason. Well theygot into my rabbit room and killed numerous rabbits, the majority wasmy Lionheads. I lost some f my Jersey Woolies. That is why I havedecided to create this litter, I did not know I would have 9 babies. Iwill post pics, as soon as I get some batteries in my camera. I thoughtabout this for awhile before I done this. Yes, there are a lot of linesout there, however some of the top lines started out using hybrids. Icould not afford to completely re-start by buying new repalcements. Ilost bunnies I had paid 80.00 -100.00 for. I am sorry if I hadofffended anyone. That was not my intention. I as well have most of myline through Diane at DJ's Lionsden, as well as some other localbreeders like CottonManes, Winchester Rabbitry. I know they are workingwith Hybrids as well. Diane was great and when she found out we hadlost some bunnies she told Winchester and Barb there was so kind tohelp me get some more purebreds, as well as a gorgeous F2.Well so sorry I took so much space. I am not sorry I decided to havethis litter as they will grow up happy healthy and the ones I do notkeep here will go to very good homes.

Pam

 

[pamnock]

I think you brought up a good topic fordiscussion and am looking forward to seeing how the babies turnout. Please keep us updated and good luck with the new litter!



Pam

 

Bunny Barn :

I wasnt offended by any means, Iwas very curious as tothe why of this particular crossing .and the main reason I postedthe question . I have issues with crossbreeding mainly in un pedigreed animals .. But I also had toask about over wooling as I know itcan be a problem .

I am so sorry You have to restart over ,what a horrible experience that had tohave been for you . not only tobe violated by someone breakingin to your home but tolose rabbits youworked hard to create , very devistating. I agree with PamNock , this is a wonderfulldiscussion topic. Ihope wecan take it further .

Cant wait to see pictures .

 

[Bunnybarn123]

Well Thanks Gypsy, I appreciate the kind words.I feel bad because it was my 14 year old daughter who came home andfound the rabbits first. Some people know about my daughter and how shewas assaulted in the 5th grade, the rabbits were an idea that wasproposed by her counselor to help her keep from regressing intoherself. Any how I have been following some of the links and think thatit is great that everyone is supportive of each other. I don't plan tokeep creating more F1 Lionheads I just wanted to be able to get somemore bunnies. What is really great is Diane from DJ's Lionsden has beengreat. She gave us some very great deals on a couple new bunnys fromher barn, then offered my daughter Geneva one of her Holland Lop doesfor no charge and has decided to breed her for my daughter before wepick her up on October 1st, and when Barb from Winchester Rabbitryfound out what happened she sold me a great little Purebred rew doe andwhen we got to her house found she was going to give me the rewsbrother, and 2 other lionheads. All purebred but 1 which is an F2.Still yet the sweetheart that she is let my midle daughter pick anotherbaby from a litter just weaned. So we went to her house to get 1 bunnyand came home with 5 lionheads and my youngest daughter was allowed topick a Holland buck from her. I have come to find that rabbit peopleare among the kindest people I have met. I have found this board muchmore friendlier than some of the othjers out there. Sorry so long, justmeant to thank Gypy for her kind words and tell her I think it is greatthat she does rescue work with all those uncared for bunnies.

Pam

 

[TinysMom]

I'm sorry if I seemed offended oranything- and if I caused any offense, I'm verysorry. I don't know anything about JW....I just assumed theywere all really furry (which shows you should never assume anything).

I am so glad you got such a large litter and I'm sure you'll be able to get them homes without any problem.

I think that is great that DJ is doing that for you as far as the lop,etc. She seems like an awesome person - I got my Puck fromher (heaven help us....I love him dearly but he's a little terror rightnow)...and I have Mona Kea from her. I hope to get more ofher babies in the future too.

Anyway - I really didn't mean to seem critical....I'm sorry if Isounded that way. Forgive me please? I just wassort of "thinking out loud" via. typing...wondering how much fur/woolthat cross would have. Mind you - I have a couple of teddybear lionheads without the JW cross....but one is a pet!

Peg

P.S. I'm also sorry about what happened to your lionheads....what a shame!