Neuter with Pasteurella

[ZoeStevens]

I brought my adult male angora bun to the vet for a pre-neuter check up a couple weeks ago. Overall he appeared to be in good shape aside from some healing sores (they looked more like calluses) on his feet from the wire he was on before I got him. The vet was clearly textbook-knowledgeable however some of her behaviour and comments suggested to me that she wasn't a fan of rabbits as pets and was not familiar with the specific needs of angoras. That's kind of beside the point but overall I didn't really like her and that may be clouding my thoughts (she also cut his claw to the blood, his claws are white, no excuse! I know it happens but I have been cutting my cats, rabbits and birds claws for years and haven't done it once).

When I got him, he also had runny eyes. The previous owner suspected he had runny eyes from the draft in the outbuilding he was in. When I got him home I treated him with an antibiotic cream I had for my cat (my regular vet OKed this - the only reason I didn't take him to her was that her price was $400 and the vet [which was recommended by fellow rabbit people] I went to was $200). His eye cleared up no problem but I am not sure if it's because it was infected at first or because he was in a warm home. The fur in the corner of his eye did fall out from the tears but it is growing back.

The vet said his lungs were clear, his eyes looked good, teeth good, however he had slightly runny nose (it wasn't running outside his nose, she only noticed when he was being held in a standing position to clip his claws) and suggested he might have pasteurella (he probably does). I had indeed noticed him coughing a few times. She prescribed an antibiotic which I have been giving him twice daily also resuming the eye cream for 2 weeks. He still coughs periodically but he only does so when he's over his food/water so I wonder if he's just inhaling water or pellet bits or something a little bit. He won't drink from a bottle. Other than that he doesn't cough. His nose looks fine to me but then it always did.

ANYWAY. The crux of the matter is that the vet wants to do xrays before she neuters him because if he has abscesses from the pasteurella he could be at risk from the surgery. To be clear: I am NOT a cheapo when it comes to the vet. All of my pets see the vet regularly. But I try to be practical and over the years I've found that not a single test I've paid for has told me anything I didn't already know -- seriously, every single one has confirmed my suspicions, or was inconclusive, and I'm starting to get to the point in my life (new homeowner) where I no longer have $500 to drop on random tests anytime. Of course, I would make it work if I thought it was necessary but I'm not so convinced it is. In this case it comes down to risk for me. Whatever he has, it's really mild, and his lungs sound clear. What are the odds that he has abscesses in his lungs? What are the odds they will be revealed in the xray (my regular vet says not guaranteed unless it's a digital xray)? What are the odds that if he has abscesses, that he will die from the surgery?

Correct me if I'm wrong of course, but from what I've been reading I am thinking the odds are lower than us both dying in a car accident on the way to the vet.

It's not that I want to chance it. If there's a 50/50 chance he'll keel over under anesthetic then yeah of course I would do it without a second thought.

I'm not sure what my question is :rollseyes I guess I am just looking for more opinions and input because I don't know what to do. I just want him to be neutered soon... I am sick of having my feet and ankles peed on every morning! :biggrin:

 

[Imbrium]

if he's only getting the feet and ankles, consider yourself lucky! apparently they can spray pee six feet in the air

I'm a bit surprised she managed to nick a quick... I've *never* done that, not even when I was teaching myself to clip bunn nails (and Nala's got dark tips on some of hers). seems like her "bedside manner" is a bit lacking, even if she is knowledgeable.

as for the actual question here, I unfortunately know practically nothing about pasteurella, so I can't help you figure out whether an x-ray is likely to tell you anything that might affect the outcome of a neuter surgery

hopefully someone will wander along who can help, though... we do have a vet who stops by the infirmary section from time to time.

 

[ZoeStevens]

Imbrium wrote:

if he's only getting the feet and ankles, consider yourself lucky! apparently they can spray pee six feet in the air

I'm a bit surprised she managed to nick a quick... I've *never* done that, not even when I was teaching myself to clip bunn nails (and Nala's got dark tips on some of hers). seems like her "bedside manner" is a bit lacking, even if she is knowledgeable.

Haha - he can get up to my knee sometimes but he's never reached anything higher... thankfully! He is a big poof ball, maybe his fur helps stop it.

Yeah I was highly unimpressed with her bedside manner. She was also getting all obsessed and flustered over the few small mats he had on his chin and chest (very minimal!). Like I just got him, working on the trust/grooming thing, if I have to I'll cut them out. She is one of those negative types "I don't like the looks of this" "This worries me" etc over minor things that are not worrisome at all, like the healing sores on his feet (closed wounds, fur half grown back). I would probably go to her again, she knows rabbits for sure. To make things worse she didn't have any antibiotics on hand and she wanted to send me to another vet to pick them up and when I told her I had to rush home to bring a cat to another vet to be euthanized (advanced cancer/liver disease) she's all stern, saying "well I wouldn't wait to treat him." He'll live another day! Geez!

ANYWAY, sorry for the vent!

 

[Imbrium]

... WTF? didn't have antibiotics? what kind of vet doesn't have antibiotics?

gotta say, I've got a new-found appreciation for how awesome my exotics vet is right now

 

[ZoeStevens]

Imbrium wrote:

... WTF? didn't have antibiotics? what kind of vet doesn't have antibiotics?

gotta say, I've got a new-found appreciation for how awesome my exotics vet is right now

Yes, it was odd. They were out of the "good" one from the start (Baytril I think?) so she says she'll give me an antibiotic that works but will give me anemia if I touch it. Yay? Luckily the vet who anesthetized the cat (my regular vet) was able to fill the prescription for the antibiotics so I was able to get them on the same day.

 

[Imbrium]

well, that's good... very sorry to hear about your cat, btw. even if you know the end is coming, that doesn't make it any easier. I lost my beloved kitty very suddenly a little less than two years ago and I still miss her quite a bit... though the bunnies have really helped to fill the hole in my heart in the four and a half months that I've had them.

 

[JBun]

I don't know that i would care that she is a good vet. If it were me, I think I would be looking for a different rabbit vet with a better bedside manner.

I don't know about the pasteurella, but everything I've heard about it is that there are much more severe symptoms than what your bun is showing. Your buns sounds more like an allergy, if anything. Wouldn't it be easier to just do a culture on it to see if it is pasteurella?

 

[ZoeStevens]

Imbrium wrote:

well, that's good... very sorry to hear about your cat, btw. even if you know the end is coming, that doesn't make it any easier. I lost my beloved kitty very suddenly a little less than two years ago and I still miss her quite a bit... though the bunnies have really helped to fill the hole in my heart in the four and a half months that I've had them.

Thanks! She wasn't mine, I was fostering her. However I am one of the three "owners" of the rescue so in a way I suppose she was. She was 13 when we got her, raggedy old barncat, with a mat the size of her on her back from her shoulder blades all down her hind legs. She was with me for a year - always quite decrepit but happy (purr, sleep, eat). She developed a tumor eventually that displaced her stomach and caused her not to feel hungry. So that, with her liver disease, chronic ear and tooth infections, that was enough. I still have five more (two are fosters) but I miss her... my little gremlin!

 

[ZoeStevens]

JBun wrote:

I don't know that i would care that she is a good vet. If it were me, I think I would be looking for a different rabbit vet with a better bedside manner.

I don't know about the pasteurella, but everything I've heard about it is that there are much more severe symptoms than what your bun is showing. Your buns sounds more like an allergy, if anything. Wouldn't it be easier to just do a culture on it to see if it is pasteurella?

There is a different vet at that clinic that I may try out. There was really nothing wrong with her knowledge it was just her. I wish I could go to my regular vet but at twice the price I just couldn't do it. And the one I went to was highly recommended by other rabbit people! Weird. Maybe it's just this one vet because otherwise the place was lovely and clean.

Thank you for your comments about the pasteurella. I have read that it can present itself as mild cold-type symptoms but that we wouldn't be seeing abscessed lungs at that stage of it.

 

[Bunnylova4eva]

I'm just curious, but what kind of nasal discharge is there?? Is is thick or thin? Clean, White, or Green? Usually pasturella is more aggressive and tends to be white or green. An ongoing clear runny nose is something to watch and make sure with a vet that its fine, but for the most part isn't something to worry so much about.

As to the situation with the vet, if you didn't like her or feel very good about her care of your bunny, it is worth checking another out if there's another good bunny vet around; very likely there's someone else you feel better taking your bunny to.
But, I think to give her the benefit of the doubt, she's trying to act in the interest of the bunny and tell you anyhting she finds- vets see quite a few bunny owners who really don't know much about their buns or notice most issues so I'm sure there are plenty who would have something like matts or sore hocks going on and not even notice. And, as to clipping the nails, I think in alomost 10 years I've only quicked one of my buns 1 time. Did you watch the vet personally trim the nails, or did she have a tech or other staff member do it somewhere? It's possible someone who wasn't as experienced or as experienced with buns did it.

 

[ZoeStevens]

Bunnylova4eva wrote:

I'm just curious, but what kind of nasal discharge is there?? Is is thick or thin? Clean, White, or Green? Usually pasturella is more aggressive and tends to be white or green. An ongoing clear runny nose is something to watch and make sure with a vet that its fine, but for the most part isn't something to worry so much about.

As to the situation with the vet, if you didn't like her or feel very good about her care of your bunny, it is worth checking another out if there's another good bunny vet around; very likely there's someone else you feel better taking your bunny to.
But, I think to give her the benefit of the doubt, she's trying to act in the interest of the bunny and tell you anyhting she finds- vets see quite a few bunny owners who really don't know much about their buns or notice most issues so I'm sure there are plenty who would have something like matts or sore hocks going on and not even notice. And, as to clipping the nails, I think in alomost 10 years I've only quicked one of my buns 1 time. Did you watch the vet personally trim the nails, or did she have a tech or other staff member do it somewhere? It's possible someone who wasn't as experienced or as experienced with buns did it.

To be honest I could not see the nasal discharge, although I did look. So it definitely wasn't green or yellow. I think it was just a bit of clear discharge or crusties maybe, but I am only saying that because I didn't see anything else. Since then I haven't observed anything, and I get right up to his nose when I give him his meds (cutest thing ever BTW). His nose was damp this morning but I think he was drinking just before I medicated him.

I agree about the vet - DH had the same impression. That we were put off by her personality type more than her abilities. But I was thinking that might be causing me to disregard what she was saying. Even though my research seems to back up my opinions. She was definitely a "it's the end of the world" type - like with the mats, he's probably 99% clear, but he won't let me touch his chin yet and I have to do his belly quickly because it stresses him out. Obviously not a neglected angora. So I guess the info she gave was appropriate but the way she was saying it just made me feel bad about the care I was giving him and his health, even though both are seemingly pretty darn good.

I watched her clip his nails, and yes it was the vet. That was another thing - I had done them a week prior. It was the first time doing them (I have done my cats a million times) so I erred on the side of caution but it was only maybe 1/4" from the quick. Maybe he has long quicks and that is why she thought he needed to be done and why she cut the quick... Bled all over the place, poor boy.

 

[Bunnylova4eva]

Well, clear discharge is something to watch but personally I wouldn't be so worried. Obviously I wouldn't want to go against what your vet said, and its best to be cautious, but hearing the symptoms and as long as your bunny isn't having trouble breathing when they listen to her lungs, I would guess it shouldn't be a huge issues for surgery.

As to quicking the nails, I see what you're saying. White nails shouldn't be that easy to quick, especially being a vet I'd think it wouldn't be an issues, but I suppose anyone can clip it a bit too short. She probably wanted to do them as the more frenquently you do them, the shorter the quicks will become which is what you want so they can be pretty short all the time.

 

[ZoeStevens]

Oh yeah, I understand that it can happen sometimes but I just like... seriously... white claws. And it's so much more visually traumatic with a rabbit. It bleeds a lot and forever.

 

[Bunnylova4eva]

Did the vet put something like Quik-Stop on there to help it clot?? I totally understand being upset about that-white nails shouldn't be that hard.

 

[ZoeStevens]

Umm not quik stop, she had what looked like a long match but the end was something... silver-something... that causes clotting. Silver nitrate? Anyway, she jammed it up into the quick -- looked painful but I guess that is the best way to make it work. It did stop bleeding after a few minutes. I think I will stick to quik stop though. The powder form seems to work much better IMO.

 

[Bunnylova4eva]

I personally too really like the powdered form Quick Stop. It works wonderfully and stops bleeding almost immediately. It was probably a long stick q-tip that they put the stuff on with.

 

[ZoeStevens]

No it definitely wasn't the powder. These:

https://www.mountainside-medical.co...ver-nitrate-sticks-medical-wounds-on-skin.jpg

I can see how the stick method could be handy though - directly application as opposed to trying to get a claw into powder.

 

[ZoeStevens]

Hmm, I did notice a whitish booger in his nose last night. Perhaps that is what the vet saw. It seemed more noticeable to me (like I would have seen it before even if I hadn't been sort of looking for it) but he is fawn coloured so if he just had some smears I might not have seen it.

Anyway, still another week of Baytril left to go. No other symptoms, really. Eyes look fine but I am still putting the cream in. No sneezing recently.

 

[BlakeandBraxton]

I don't know if this will help you very much, but I am going through almost the same situation with my bunny Blake right now. When I got him home I quickly realized that had green nasal discharge. We tried Trimeth Sulfa and Baytril with minimal change so I decided to culture him. The culture came back with a heavy growth of Pasteurella Multocida. He was started on Orbax and his discharge became clear but towards the end of the Orbax it went back to a whitish color and that is where we are. He just saw a third vet and she thinks this is just going to be ongoing and I will have to do courses of antibiotics, on and off, but as is, she suggests I leave him alone until it gets worse, then we start the meds again.All along I have been waiting to neuter Blake. I also have his brother and the two were bonded till Braxton hit adolescence and I separated them fearing they would fight. Braxton got neutered but Blake didnt because of his nose. Initially he sneezed a lot but once he was on antibiotics the sneezing is now only every once and a while, and besides the discharge, you would never know he is sick. I have had his lungs assessed at every exam and they always sound perfectly clear, leading all of the vets to believe the Pasteuerlla is in his nose only. With this, I have heard that this could pose a risk, that the only added risk I am taking is that it gets worse after surgery and the option which we are going with, which is that the Vet who is neutering him is going to perform a Nasolacrimal Flush while he is under to try to cleanse the area and allow the antibiotics to truly work. So, to try to answer your question, the vets I have discussed my situation with, all seem to say that all rabbits face risks under anesthesia, and while the Pasteuerella adds some more risk to the bunny, if the lungs seem to be clear, they are not discouraging the surgery. I hope this helps and hope your Bun feels better soon! I know how frustrating Pasteurella is!

 

[ZoeStevens]

Thank you, yes, that helps tremendously!! My rabbit seems similar. He still sneezes from time to time. It went away when he was being medicated but has come back now that the course of antibiotics is done. I don't notice many boogers, just the one yellowish booger. His lungs were also clear.

I am going to ask the vet to just do the procedure. Behaviourally I can't keep going like this anyway - he pees on EVERYONE, constantly. He needs to be neutered! And from my readings it is a minor risk, not much bigger than regular anesthetic risk.