My Baby Bert

[Torchster]

You don't have to read the whole thing. My main question is about dosage. I read that I should give him about 1ML for gas relief drops (I got Little Tummys brand). I doesn't like this stuff at all. He fights me every step of the way. I doubt he got anywhere close to 1ML. I would try to put a the end of the syurng (Don't ask me how to spell it) in house mouth and the second I tried to squirt the tinyest little bit he shakes his head violently, and of course some goes on the everywhere BUT his mouth. I am worried on the one hand about not getting enough, but I don't want to give him any than 1 ML cause I don't want to over do it.

I gave him the 'dose' just before I started writing this and he already started eating some pellets. It seems to work fast, but I am just wondering how much to give a bunny that is just not interested in cooperating?

Also, this seems to happen a little too frequent, I wonder what I am doing wrong?

And thanks for any response that I get.



Sick Bunny - Bert

- Location: D.C. USA

- Description (Breed, color., weight): Rescue Bunny - just under 5 pounds brown

- Age: Unknown - probably about 2

- spayed/neutered?: nuetered

- Notes on Fecal and Urinary Output
- are the bunny's poops and pees normal? : Have 2 bunnies - difficult to tell who does what
- When did they last use their litterbox? : Have 2 bunnies - difficult to tell who does what
- Any unusual behavior? : not interested in food, sitting there with his eyes half closed in kind of a big bunny ball, failed the treat test

- Medical History -- has s/he been to the vet or been sick before? : has gotten similar to this a 3 times before - got Reglan from the vet 1st time (worked), next time systems came up, Reglan worked again-last time followed advice and switched to Little Tummys gas relief drops, seemed to work just fine.

- Diet - what does your bunny eat?: hay (oxbow) unlimited, pellets oxbow about a cup for dinner, treats 1/2 a wheat thin or a sprig or two of oxbow Alfalfa hay
- when and what did s/he eat last? : greens for breakfast

- movement - any unusual movements? Is s/he hopping normally? : doesn't really want to move much

- are there any plants, chocolate or other substances within reach? : nothing other than the carpet they walk on

- has the rabbit been outdoors? : nope

Other rabbit (Petunia) appears to be system free, passed snack test with flying colors.

I followed the instructions on Statsis thread. I did my best to give him 1 ML of the Little Tummys gas drops. I think that I got the berry flavored one. He really doesn't tolerate this stuff at ALL. I think that this is a statsis issue. I am going to continue with the gas relief drops.

Of course I failed at the bunny burrito. I've watch videos on youtube and read stuff about, but I'm not very good at it. What I wouldn't give to meet up with other experienced bunny owners and get taught how to do this in person.

 

[Pipp]

Sometimes it hard to get the stuff in their mouth, that's for sure. I try and tuck it into the corner of their mouth, but half the time I end up with a full frontal squirt and hope for the best.

I don't do the burrito, I just try and position them so their feet can't hit anything but the air. I think I just have their backs to my chest/body and hold them tight with my arm, elbows, left hand and knees and maneuver with my right hand.

Don't worry about overdoing it, you can't really overdose on Simethicone, it's not absorbed by the tissue, it works on the gas bubbles or just passes through the system.


sas :clover:

 

[Torchster]

Thanks for the info.

 

[tonyshuman]

I don't have a lot more advice on how to get the meds in--my guys like the taste of Mylicon. It's fine to give extra as sas said.

I would worry about his diet causing this. Does he get a whole cup of pellets? That's a LOT for an adult. My adults that each weigh around 4lb get 1 tablespoon of pellets a day. I wouldn't give your 5lb bunny more than 1/4c a day, unless he was having trouble keeping weight on (and he's not old enough for that to be an issue). You may want to decrease pellets gradually to 1/4c per bunny max over a couple of weeks. Too many pellets could cause gas and GI upset.

Also, what was the veggie you fed right before the latest gas attack? He may be sensitive to some veggies that can cause gas. Some bunnies are more sensitive than others.

 

[Torchster]

Nothing has really changed in his diet recently. Perhaps I give too much pellets to the two of them (they always eat together). I will find something to measure the amount, but I think that it is about a cup for the both of them.

For breakfast they always get set a greens. The basis for breakfast starts with carrots. I try and get carrots with tops. Depending on how big the carrots, I cut off the bottom part to give the top carrot and the good green leafy stuff. If it is a small carrot, I may cut the carrot in half. If I get some nice big ones, they may only get a quarter of the carrot or less. Actually, they get two, because Petunia will always go for the carrot first, take and run into a corner with it. I don't think that she is into sharing. After that, I put in some Parsley. To finish things on I put in some kind of lettuce (this last part I change every once in awhile). I make all of their meals once week by putting them into these zip lock containers that I have and put them in the fridge. That way, in the morning, I just dump the veggies onto a plate and breakfast is served. They get the exact same breakfast for a week at a time.

I keep like 4 little boxes in various places in their enclosure (they have part of a room) and a couple of them have all kinds of hay-a couple are just for doing their business. And they are actually pretty good at using the ones just for their business-its kind of surprising.

 

[tonyshuman]

Ok. The veggies sound fine, especially if they were all veggies the bunnies had had before.

 

[Torchster]

Well, I think that we are at this point again. Bert seems to fairly inactive and is curled up in a ball in his cage. I measured the amount of pellets they get per day. The scoop that I have is a half cup scoop. Last night, for Thanksgiving, I gave them an absolutely full scoop (usually I don't try and give them a full scoop). I also gave them a craisin each as a little treat.

As often as this appears to be happening, the must be something else going on. I doubt that bunnies are going to get an upset tummy as often as Bert seems to be getting. The weird thing is that Bert and Petunia get the exact same diet. When one get a treat, the other gets a treat. They eat of the same bowl and get the same stuff. One would think that they would both be getting ill. Now perhaps, they both wouldn't get sick at the exact same time, but I've never really had any issues with Petunia...its always Bert. Perhaps that is because he is more dominate than Petunia, I don't know.

I use Oxbow hay and pellets...perhaps that is the issue?

Time for the nightmare that is the bunny wrap and try to give him some gas stuff (symethicone).

 

[ra7751]

I would suggest getting back to basics. If I were to offer any greens, mint has a calming effect in the gut. And in my opinion, you are feeding far too many pellets. And I would certainly try another brand of hay. Both Bunny Bale and Sweet Meadow Farms are near you and I use each of them. They are certainly superior quality hays. Bunny Bale is a bit stemmy (good for the rabbit) and Sweat Meadow Farms is very soft. And Reglan and related gut motility drugs are not something we ever use for any reason with a rabbit. They carry far too much risk for the possibility of their very limited potential benefit. None of my vets will even consider using them in a rabbit.

I would certainly cut out the carrots and the tops. Lots of sugars and proteins in those. The tops are something we feed to rabbits that need a nutritional push....a lot like alfalfa hay.

And by all means....separate them at feeding time so you can monitor what is going on. And if you have to separate them to monitor fecal production...put a divider between them so they can still have contact.

This appears to be something ongoing and it's root cause most of the time is husbandry. I would take a close look at the diet.....and get it to basics....limited pellets and unlimited hays of different types.

Randy

 

[Torchster]

My current cage set up is the best for separation of bunnies. I work very hard to get on my bunnies good side. I think that months of working with my buns just goes out the window whenever I have to work with them. I tried to get Bert into the bunny burrito three different times, and each time he thrashes his way out. He does NOT tolerate this at all and he fights me at every single chance he gets and fight it violently. He would tolerate the reglan stuff, but his would not let me get close to his mouth with the baby gas drops. I finally just put some on his paw and waited for him to lick it off. I think that he got the point that I was NOT going to give up and would lick his paw. God knows what he got for a dose, but he at least got a little bit.

THIS IS SO FRUSTRATING (insert various and numerous adult swear words here, LIBERALLY).

To think that this is a husbandry issue...well insert above here too. I really do try so hard. I went out and bought 50 pounds of hay and pellets so that they would always have plenty on hand.

My near term plan is to cut the nightly pellet dose in 1/2. In the morning I will cut out carrots completely. I will switch to an all 'greens' breakfast. Lettuce and parsley and stuff like that. I will, as always, keep more than enough hay around. I'm surprise by how much I throw away.

Days like this make being a bunny owner so tough - and I have it easy compared to some of the stuff I see around here.

 

[Maureen Las]

How is Bert today?

 

[Torchster]

Today, Bert is in the hospital. My career as a bunny doctor is over. Its been a rough night.

I got up after a few hours sleep and I didn't think that Bert was doing any better - so I called around, and call around until I could find a bunny doctor that would see him, TODAY.

He was drooling, which I thought was related to my ill fated attempt at medications, but as it turns out is related to some overgrown teeth. They also believe that he has a ulcer on his tounge (sp?) that is probably from the over grown teeth. How long has my baby been suffering from this???

The doc also a felt a mass on his side, but she had no idea what it was. They are going to do an xray while he is under for the tooth thing.

We agreed that they are going to keep him and Petunia (she seems to be fine) together in the hospital until Monday. I want them to be together for comfort. I also want him to get started on the right path to recovery. The way that bunnies can go from fine to very bad so quickly, I want him to get on the right path before I start managing his care. They are also going to do some sub-q to help him out.

She said that he appeared very strong and alert. And of course that I had done the right thing to rush him in, blah, blah, blah (I feel like such a failure for not detecting my baby was in pain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Come Monday, it looks like I will become a drug store. Looks like he gets Metacam (I think that is for pain) - Cisapride compound - Enrofloxacin compound, the last two to manage the ulcer.

I'm pretty much a wreck at the moment. Right now my baby is under the knife at the vet for the teeth thing. They are going to call me when has come out from the operation, probably after the doc has had some time to look at the xray. He had an xray about 6 months ago and they saw nothing then, so I am hoping it is nothing again.

 

[ra7751]

There are two things here that cause me great concern...Cisapride and Enrofloxacin. Cisapride is a gut motility drug. It carries huge risks. None of my vets will use gut motility drugs in rabbits....better left for dogs and cats. Enrofloxacin is Baytril.....and it'sa drug that is quickly losing favor. Most vets are abandoning this drug due to resistant bacteria. Dental problems can be caused by genetics, injury to the jaw or by something like MBD that affects the stability of tooth location. Too many pellets and insufficient hay can also lead to molar spurs.

The ulcers are probably a combination of the dental issue as well as a pH change.

As far as the drugs, I have no problem with the Metacam....maybe even some Tramadol for a few daysafter the dental. But I would urge some conversation over the use of Baytril and especially the Cisapride. If there is an infection, there are more effective(and safe) antibiotics other than Baytril....and in my non-professional opinion, there is never an appropriate timefor the use of gut motility drugs in arabbit.

Randy

 

[Torchster]

I just heard from the vet, he tolerated the molar trim well and is in recovery. The xray just showed his kidney was in an unusual place, no big deal there. He has a mouth full of ulcers (from the teeth). Its like three, so my baby has been suffering for a little while. Boy did I miss this, ugh. I thought that he was fairly young, but maybe he is older than I thought.

I never knew being a bunny owner was so tuff on you. Yes financially, but mentally as well. It makes me feel so bad knowing that my baby was suffering and I didn't have a clue. He looks to me for everything, and I have let him down.

Edited to add-

Thanks for the advice. I will discuss with my vet (this is an ER vet visit, so I have never seen her before). If I had a printer, I'd print this out and take it to her to discuss. I will just try and remember what you said and discuss it with her.

 

[hln917]

You didn't let him down, you're being a great bunny slave like we all are and getting him the proper treatment. Please don't beat yourself down. I know all too well how it feels when a bun is not feeling well. I'm sending good wishes to Bert and hoping he feel better soon.

 

[Maureen Las]

Torchster wrote:

I just heard from the vet, he tolerated the molar trim well and is in recovery. The xray just showed his kidney was in an unusual place, no big deal there. He has a mouth full of ulcers (from the teeth). Its like three, so my baby has been suffering for a little while. Boy did I miss this, ugh. I thought that he was fairly young, but maybe he is older than I thought.

I never knew being a bunny owner was so tuff on you. Yes financially, but mentally as well. It makes me feel so bad knowing that my baby was suffering and I didn't have a clue. He looks to me for everything, and I have let him down.

Edited to add-

Thanks for the advice. I will discuss with my vet (this is an ER vet visit, so I have never seen her before). If I had a printer, I'd print this out and take it to her to discuss. I will just try and remember what you said and discuss it with her.

My rabbit Beau has had dental issues for years. I just took him to the animal dentist2 weeks ago and he had an ulcer in his mouth cause by 3 decaying teeth that needed to be removed. he had shown no signs of pain.I watch for this because he does have ongoing dental issues ..
I also felt bad that my little guy was probably suffering and I didn't know it.
My Beau can only eat soft food at this point so he eats gruel made out of Critical care and oxbow pellets. you will need to discuss with your Dr. what he will need to be eating when he comes home. hopefully they can supply you with critical care ... if not you can order it from oxbow and also get some pure unseasoned canned pumpkin.
let us know how he is doing.

Good thinking to try to find a vet that can take care of the teeth

 

[Pipp]

Sorry I didn't read your post more closely. Gas is almost always a side effect of something else. And the slightest drool or unusual eating patterns spells dental.

Especially a short-faced breed like dwarfs and holland lops are prone to molar spurs although they all get them.

In this case, I'd hazard a guess the main culprit is too many pellets. They get lazy and don't chow down on the hay and veggies as much as they should.

I have a bunny that will NOT eat any hay (or grass) at all, even if that's all she has, but I went from having to have her spurs trimmed every two months to every year (at most) by making sure she was getting a great variety of chewy veggies.

I strongly disagree on cutting out the carrots (sorry Randy), but they should be given in small doses, and it sounds like you're doing that. Carrot tops are a staple around here, although I don't give anybunny anything more than three or four days in a row to avoid a build-up of nutrients.

I'm pretty sure the tops are one of the key things that keeps my dwarf's molar spurs in check. She's not overweight and doesn't have any gut issues (at least not since going on this diet). Kale, broccoli, parsley, etc, also seem to help, but that's maybe because that's what I can get her to eat!

The trick is the variety of textures, shapes, etc, that gets them chewing up, down, sideways and all around.

Also, the recommendation I got from a bunny nutritionist was to try to provide one non-green veggie every meal along with the selection of greens. That's hard to do. Carrots are a staple around here. In small amounts. (And not to overweight rabbits or any prone to soft poops or excess cecal production).

I've started giving them apple PEELS as a treat instead of apple, btw, and that seems to help as well.

If she starts showing signs of spurs again (unusual mouth movements, slightly stressed, picking up and dropping veggies, etc), she gets her pellets cut down (or off) and she's overloaded on the things that she'll eat -- carrot, kale, broccoli stems, the leafy part of the parsley and cilantro, etc. Its not ideal, but it works! They'll break off or wear down on their own.



sas :bunnydance:

 

[Torchster]

I wonder about the gut motility feelings on RO. It seems that there some here that a really against it, and I was wondering why that is? It seems that in situation similar to mine, these drugs have their place. A bunny in this situation has a number of things working against him. He/she has stopped eating, is in pain, stressed from the surgery, in a strange place with strange humans around...combine that with the importance of gut motility to rabbits, one would think that the use of this drug (on a limited basis) to make sure that things are going is a safe precaution.

Is there any data to support the idea of not using gut motility drugs in rabbits or other small mammals? I'm not one of those people who thinks that there is a pill for everything, but sometimes drugs do have their place.

Obviously, I am not an expert - not a vet - and probably not even considered well read on the subject (although I have done some). One thing that works against all of us, is that it seems that almost anything we give our bunnies seems to be an off-label use, except for perhaps hay.

 

[Maureen Las]

Randy 's feeling re. gut motility drugs are in this thread

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=52429&forum_id=16


SinceRandy works with cutting edge vets who only work on rabbits and other small mammals and birds I believe that Randy's opinion is correct.
He did not mention in his post that if the rabbit doesn'tget abdominal x-rays to rule out a blockage that there is also a chance that the gut will contractin a blocked abdomen and cause a rupture which is fatal. Randy has more hands on experience than many of us and he hassaved my rabbits many times when my vets were clueless or downright wrong.

Many vets will not x-ray before prescribing metoclopromide and over prescribe it because it is easier to use than constant hydration.
One of our members (Naturestee) made the choice several years go of allowing her rabbit knowledeable vet to administer a metoclopromide injection to her mega-colon rabbit who was in stasis ; the rabbit did die but it was not determined if it was from this medication.

Now the flipside of the coin:


There are other rabbit knowledgeable people out there like Kathy Smith who coauthored several books on rabbit health and Dana Krempels who is a PHD in biology ( not a vet)and administrator of a medical rabbit health site and author of numerous articles who do not think twice about using gut motility drugs as a normal part of treatment.

Kathy Smith was a member of this forum for awhile and was very surprisedat Randy's response but at the same time extremely interested in the experiences that he had that wouldcause him to be so adamantly against something.

The mainstream vet population is still using metoclopromide as a treatment option. Most of the vets in my town would use it but they are not the cream of the crop. The very top notch vets most likely would agree with Randy . I am not sure as I do not have acces to them here in south west Wi.

Both ciapride and metoclopromide has been prescribed for my rabbits many times before I joined this forum in 2005 andI thought that it was a normal part of rabbit medicine . It has been prescribedby supposedly top notch vets in the Chicago land area ( I used to live there)

None of my rabbits ever had negative effects and all of them were x-rayed prior to getting the drug.

Now suppose that you agree with Randy and need to tell your vet why you don't want to use metoclopromide? Many vets will be shocked that a layperson has thenerve to tell them what is or is not correct. This, in itself can be cause a rift between you and the vet and maybe compromise your rabbit's care. On the other hand your vet may be interested in any new knowledge although I have not personally found that to be true other than one particular female vet.

Do you have a second vet that you can go to if the first vet becomes angry?

You need to take the "ideal" and attempt toincorporate it as closely as you can into your life situation ; what is available for your rabbit.? "

In the long run I would not use metoclopromide on a rabbit if I had not tried all other natural methods first.

I did chose to use it on a rabbit that was almost feral, could not be handled ; I had no other choice as i could not syringe feed him or give sub Q's

You need to make your own decision on whether you use metoclopromide on your rabbit.

I feel that sometimes the "ideal" cannot be realized in daily life. We are not in idyllic situations and often cannot do the perfect thing.

so you want to come as close to it as you can.

I will admit that ifI tried all natural methods of attempting to hydrate my rabbits and worked hard to correct a problem and it did not do it I might use metoclopromide.

But that is just me
other mods would nevers use it. some may .

learn everything that you can about this drug and make yourown decision

We are here to inform not to tell you what to do...

 

[Maureen Las]

I realize that you were having a lot of difficulty giving Bert orally anything by syringe.

of course this is going to make it difficult for you to hydrate him orally

I am going to explain howI syringe meds and fluids orally to one of my rabbits by myself.
first of you need to collect the supplies you may need all in one place on the floor where you will be working. This would be the bottle of meds, a syringe, a washcloth and maybe pedialyte if you are going to be giving him some of that. get everything together because once you get down with the rabbit it will be difficult to get up and get more supllies.
Next take a towel and wrapBert in it snugly like a burrito but with his head right side up (don't turn him over on his tummy; leave him in his normal upright position)

Next go to the area on the floor where your supplies are and sit on the floor ...sitting on your legs and feet

Place Bert between your thighs head facing outward.

At this point you can crouch over Bert using the musclesof your inner thighs as a vice to hold Bert still. if he tries to run tighten your thighs on him.
Your arms should be free to get the syringe with the meds in it .

next lean over Bert and place the syringe sideways behind hisfront teeth ( there is a space. )
gently push the medication in watching him swallow ..you can contol his head motion with one hand . Don't aim the syringe at the back of his mouth but towards the opposite side of his mouth After you give the med you can unwrap him and let him go.
you can also use this method for syringe feeding and/or oral hydration.
Alway give the meds slowly and methodically watching the rabbit swallow; you don't want to overwhelm him with fluid.

This works for me very well but I have also done it alot but it may be worth trying.

the other option is to get a helper.

 

[Torchster]

First of all, I am only a layman. I think that Randy has probably forgotten more about rabbits than I have learned since I got my rabbit about 9 months ago. I'm not sure if you work with rabbits too angieluv, but I think that it is safe to say that you probably are much more informed about rabbits than I.

I'd also like to say that I REALLY appreciate the advice that you and Randy (and many others) give on this forum. I hope that neither you or Randy (or anyone else) feel that I am being rude in any way shape or form. That is not my intent.

I thank you for your link to Randy's post about the use of gut motility drugs, very informative. I also didn't think that Randy was telling me what to do, just what he thinks is best.

Unfortuneatly, its seems the drugs in used in rabbit care seem to be 'off-label.' In this case, the possiblity of statis is a real concern. While the real problem that my rabbit has with his teeth, and apparently the poor diet that I gave my rabbit (too much in the way of pellets) - the real killer is statis. While I have treated the root cause (ya like that root cause, his teeth? I try to be funny sometimes, and fail) his teeth, now I have to treat the what it has caused.

Statis appears to be the collapse, or stopping of the digestive tract. Rabbits, as grazers, have evolved to eat mostly grass. Grass, is not usually full of energy, among other things, so animals that eat grass, have to eat a lot of it to get the energy they need. When they stop eating, what is the best way to restart the GI track? Is the answer to that question just to get food in the GI tract of the rabbit?? It appears to me that Randy fells that hydration is key to getting things moving again. If a rabbit isn't eating (and probably not drinking much either) the rabbit is probably getting most of hydration via sub-q. I think that everyone has to agree the fluids are vital, and if a rabbit is dehydrated, sub-q have to be given.

But the real question is do sub-q fluids have an effect on statis? Sub-q can have a dramatic and quick effect on the appearance of a rabbit. But is there a therapeutic on the GI tract???

This a very difficult question. Statis often appears to happen in concert with other conditions so quantifying the effect of any therapeutic routine would appear to be difficult, if not impossible.

Randy you said that gut motility drugs are a win-win situation for the vet, if they don't work, there wasn't time to reach a therapeutic effect and if the rabbit survives, it worked. However, what are the reasons for mortality in rabbits that don't respond to hydration?