Jemma may have to be put down

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Raspberry, wiegh Jemma and pm Randy. He can tell you, he's done it for me before. There's also this site, the Rabbit Dosage Calculator. YOu type in your bunny's wieght and the name of the medicine you are using, it gives you a dosage. I had to have a nurse friend of mine help me decipher it, but I'm sure if you don't know more about this than I do, someone on here can help.

http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rx/drugcalc.html
 
Update:

This has got to be the worst experience I've ever had with adopting a rabbit from a shelter .. Ever! I'm sorry to put down a shelter organization because what they are doing is really great in theory. But what a mess this past month has been!

First, I'm told I will have to cover all of Jemma's surgery and health problems, then the foster mom tells me that this shelter's policy is that all health costs be covered by the foster mom of the rabbit and the shelter's contreibution of $100 plus a medical fund which works on a reimbursement only basis and to go ahead and get everything rolling with check-ups and estimated surgery costs from the vet for Jemma so the abscess doesn't get worse. After the high surgery costs come back to them, I'm told that this is too much for anyone to afford and that she will likely have to be put down. So I frantically get in contact with the president to figure out some way to get more money for Jemma's surgery to be covered and told no they can't do that. Two days later, I get a call from the foster Mom telling me that the president has changed her mind and they can contribute $300 paid dirctly to the vet (Good, Great!!) and the foster mom will send a check for $300.

So, last Thursday I get a surgery opening for the following Monday morning. Now it is left up to me to figure out how to arrange for the foster mom's check to arrive in time which is made out to the Vet clinic, I email her about the confirmed surgery date and if we can meet up on Saturday for me to pick up the check. Then we find out about some big problems and repairs that our condo will have to undergo and I get tied up in that mess for 48 hours and unable to call the foster mom to see if she got my email. She ended up not getting the email until into the weekend and had gone ahead and snail mailed the check to me. It's now Saturday and the Vet is closed. What am I suppose to do?!? I call the Vet's and leave a voicemail apologizing that there was some payment mix up and that the surgery date has to be cancelled and rescheduled and to please contact me so I know they got my message and I'm very very sory for this problem. Monday rolls around and I check my voicemail and email only to find angry emails from the president and the foster mom! They're mad at me for not going to the surgery appointment and accusing me of being irresponsible and creating a big problem for the Vet after I contacted them about not being able to make the appointment due to the check snafoo.

WOW!

What kind of nerve is that? I'm going way out of my way playing threeway phone tag for a month just trying to find a way to keep Jemma and going to the different Vets they're telling me to go to, get her the surgery she needs, get copies of the estimates and bills, and finding a way to not have her be put down, putting my reputation on the line with my pesonal Vet to work out a 2-way payment, and they're upset with me?

So I try to contact the president directly again to figure out how she planned to pay the Vet and how to reschedule things so it will work this time.. she doesn't return my calls. I received a call back from the foster mom this evening instead informing me that now the president has decided they cannot contribute the $300 now and I will have to pay this myself and then mail the bills to their medical fund and be reimbursed these costs 3+ months later OR I can return her to her foster mom's and hope the surgery goes well and that her foster mom finds the time to care for her afterwards and that they don't end up putting her down. They really want what is best for Jemma, I keep hearing. RIGHT. How is all of this flip flopping on decisions helping Jemma??

Is it just me or is this an EXTREMELY strange and messed up way to resolve having one of their rabbits properly treated?

So after a MONTH of trying to work this out because I absolutely love Jemma and my partner loves Jemma and we REALLY want to keep her and this huge mess continues and continues and she STILL hasn't been able to get the surgery, I've decided that even though it breaks my heart, I have to return her to her foster mother and have the shelter and foster mother resolve this between them. I cannot be trying to work all this out when they are obviously really flakey!

This is just tragic. Here the shelter has a GREAT home for one of their bunnies and now she will have to go back to them because I'm fed up with being jerked around with yes will pay this, no we won't, yes we will, no we won't. What a MESS. It makes me so angry.

To be honest though, part of me is worried to hand her back over to their care because frankly I feel like she would get much better care and attention in my home and have less stress because she's already very happy here. But enough is enough, I can't pay for her surgery, they agreed to, so they need to get this figured out.

I'm hoping they will in fact work out the surgery and get her taken care of asap and healed up and perhaps then I can try to adopt her again. This just breaks my heart.

I forgot to mention that they also were flip flopping on whether I should go ahead with trying the PenB shots for a while to see if they helped or to go ahead with just the surgery followed by PenB.

Argh.

:grumpy: :bigtears::sad:
 
Oh my gosh! that's just so awful!

I hope and pray this gets worked out!
 
I really hope everything works out and you get to keep Jemma and she gets her surgery!!! Please keep us updated. I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience, hopefully it will be over soon and Jemma will be better and yours forever so you can forget about everything that happened.
 
Thank you all for being so encouraging and supportive, it really means a lot. I really hope it works out just like that, SnowyShiloh! I'll update after Jemma's surgery once I hear from the foster mom.. they will be caring for her for a least the next month or two to watch if her abscess returns (from what I'm told) and if it does not return and she's healthy, I can come back to try and adopt her. I'm crossing my fingers she'll be completely healthy!

Her surgery will be on Tuesday. Then her foster mom will be boarding her at the vet's for five days because she has a trip.. just after Jemma surgery. The poor thing, I really don't want her alone in a stange new place just after an ordeal like that, but at least the vet will take good care of her.

I'm going to miss her like crazy! I'll have to beg her foster mom tolet me come visit her to get some snuggle time with Jem. :):?
 
Raspberry82 wrote:
I forgot to mention that they also were flip flopping on whether I should go ahead with trying the PenB shots for a while to see if they helped or to go ahead with just the surgery followed by PenB.
Click to expand...
Uh... no offense, this seems likea no-brainer to me, but I'm not a vet. What would be the downside of trying the shots first when it might save her from having surgery?

I thought the testimonials in this thread were pretty powerful, what do the vet(s) say?


sas :?
 
Yeah, it seemed like a no-brainer to me also, it could only help! I went ahead and started her on the shots via the information I got on here and followed the recommended dosage calculator for PenB by her weight because her getting better is all that matters to me regardless of what they eventually decide. So far, I'm happy to add that as far as I can tell the abscess has not gotten bigger, but hasn't shrunk either.


 
The vet simply said he didn't think it was needed since she would be having a surgery so soon.. but then the fli-flopping/indecision from the sheler people prolonged the surgery being performed.. so I took the initiative to start the shots in the meantime.

:rollseyes
 
The advisors on this forum are very knowledgeable, but they're not vets (or at least not yet, in some cases). This information is given to pass along to the vets, not for self-treatment, so I do hope the vets were involved in this decision, or at least wereaware of it and have sanctioned the treatment.

That said, how long has she been on the shots? Haven't re-read the thread to see if anybody mentions the timelines they experienced.

sas :?


 
The vet did ok having the PenB given to her and he did want her on the PenB if there was going to be time passing before her surgery was done, so yes, this was started via the ok from the vet and not just myself. She's been on the shots for only 1 day so far, given once a day. I stop the day before her surgery.
 
Cool.

Doubt you'd notice a difference after one day. :?

Hopefully everybody who previously responded can comment on the results they saw when they started the injections. I'm assuming that it's at the very least a couple of weeks, but I've never had abscesses treated here.

It's going to be VERY important to be consistent with the doses, that much I know. You can't stop and start them, they'll become ineffective, you could make it worse. So if she's on those meds, really best to keep her on them and don't schedule the surgery until the prescribed course is done.

I really don't think you're even supposed to stop for surgery and then start again. Antibiotics work because of the consistent levels over time, it's really really really ill--advised -- dangerous even -- to stop them even briefly, or to only administer them forbrief periods. That's a given.

sas :clover:
 
Hi,

I don't know how I keep missing this thread. But to clarify a few things....the drug has to be Pen G....no other letter. The differences is what is actually in the drug and the concentrations. The correct drug will have 150K units of Procaine and 150K units of Benzathine for an effective drug level of 300K units per ml. Each part of this drug works in a different way...one is a fast acting component and the other is more long term....great coverage and back up that way. It will come under various brand names so you have to read the label to get the correct drug. The particular brand name I use is Combi-Pen-48 and comes from Tractor Supply. Check the label. I base my dosing on a rabbit with a weight of 2kg (about 4.5 pounds). At that weight, I use 75K units of drug injected sub-q (and buffered) every other day. That works out to .25cc per injection (75K units is 25% of the total drug concentration of 300K units). The treatment should also include zithromax given in conjunction with the Pen G. Keep Pen G in the fridge.

Now I am not a vet. But I can pretty much guarantee that I have successfully treated more abscesses than most doctors will ever see in their entire career. Not a one here has been treated by surgery. At one time, an abscess was a death warrant and most of the time, either the rabbit died a painful death or was euthanized. Or, since the abscess didn't respond to medications, different meds were used that did not agree with a rabbit. In recent years, there has been some leaning toward surgery and the implanting of antibiotic beads. Two things I found with that (it does look good on paper) is that you have to open a somewhat contained problem area. Not only will that allow the possibility of that infection spreading, it also allows an increased risk of additional infection in an already compromised area. Most of the time, the beads contained the drug clindamycin. This particular drug has a high probability of "breaking out"....and when it does, it migrates to the GI and it is a "wipe out" drug. And we all know what happens when we lose the beneficial bacteria in the gut.

In my non-professional opinion, even if I were going to allow surgery (and I hesitate to say I never wouldbut I would exhaust all other possibilities first)....I would think that aggressive antibiotic protocols would be in order just in an attempt to lower the risk of spreading the infection. I would like to propose, again in my non-professional opinion, that you might reconsider the surgery decision....or at least get a second opinion. Surgeries like this in rabbits are difficult and painful for the rabbit...and secondarily expensive to you. I really think, that based on my experiences here, that you just might be able to control this situation by using the correct drug protocol. It's worked every time here. As Pipp stated...it is vitally important to properly use antibiotics in order for them to work properly. If this is a real nasty abscess, it might take over a week before seeing any resolution at all (based on using proper drugs).

And just for my own curiosity, could you post a picture of the abscess...or send me one by e-mail. And are we totally sure this is a true abscess? I just don't have a real good feeling about this entire thing.

Randy
 
Great advice from both sas and Randy, as always :)

Max had surgery twice for his abscess and it was not cheap either time. It was also extrememly painful and stressful for him. We're lucky he's one tough little bunny. If I had it to do over again, I would definitely try the PenG (or Bicillin, which iis PenG with Benzathine) and Zithromax to treat it first. If the abscess comes back I plan to do that to exhaust all my options before surgery.

I think it would definitely take at least a few weeks (probably more) to see results. Did you ask about Zithromax in combination with the PenG?
 
A lot of vets go for the surgery because it's more immediate, and generally there are other benefits to doing it. I'm not saying that the PenG injections aren't really great, because I fully agree that they are.

But there are some situations that warrant surgery.

Granted, surgery has its obvious drawbacks as well.

All this being said, I've seen the PenG work beautifully in most situations- but some vets prefer the surgical route. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
 
I double checked the bottle they gave me and it is 150k procaine and 150k benzathine, for some reason on the bottle it is labeled PenB 40 something and this can also be purchased at my local feed store for $9/bottle.

I had come to an agreement with the foster mom and president to try this method for a few months to see if it helps, especially considering they were thinking of putting her down. But they changed their minds and wanted to go with the surgery before enough time was given for these shots to do a whole lot of good. We got 3 vet opinions and they all said they doubted the procaine and benzethine combo would work and if it did, were betting strongly on her abscess returning, but were willing to give me the antibiotic and shots to try. In addition, I'm giving Jemma astragalus tea infusions (does not interact with the drugs) but it is antimicrobial, antiviral, immuno-supportive, anti-inflammatory, and promotes increase in T cell production for healing, so could only help.

I basically have two options here: 1) I could permanently and officially adopt her so that I would be in complete control of her care, treatments, and getting her well and try the antibiotics for a while and hope they work against the particular bacterial strains she has in her abscess. But face facts that if they didn't work after months and she got worse and worse, she may need to be put down. Or 2) Return her to the shelter/foster mom where they will pay for this surgery and followed antibiotic procaine/benzathine shots, and can afford to have her treated again if this comes back.

So, I decided #2 would be the better choice. I know her foster mom has treated her own bunnies with the procaine/benzathine combo shots with success, but the president felt surgery was the best method. So as far as I can tell, the plan is for her to stay on the shots for some time after her surgery while under the care of her foster mom. Since all the vets are pusing for the surgery, the shelter president is pushing for the surgery as well. Ug.

Pretty frustrating :?. That's why it seems best if she goes back to her foster mom's and they work it out between them. I trust Randy's experience, but I'm having to juggle two other people's input and they are the ones who have finally agreed to fork over the cash for her to be treated.








 
Ivory wrote:
A lot of vets go for the surgery because it's more immediate, and generally there are other benefits to doing it. I'm not saying that the PenG injections aren't really great, because I fully agree that they are.

But there are some situations that warrant surgery.

Granted, surgery has its obvious drawbacks as well.

All this being said, I've seen the PenG work beautifully in most situations- but some vets prefer the surgical route. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
Click to expand...

Yes, this is exactly what I'm being told and what the vets/shelter people feel.. both have potential drawbacks and toss ups, and that combining both may gives her the best shot.

All in all, as much as I want Jemma to be perfectly ok at the end of this, at least it has given me a tremendous learning experience of what to do in the future if it ever comes up with another bun. If it did, I would likely pay for a culture test, check that the procaine/.benzathine would be effective against those strains and do the shots. A difficult decision all the way around.




 
Yes, I can try to take a picture as best I can. She has black fur and it's located on her underside right up against her front leg so tricky to capture. But I can try.

Both vets agreed it was in fact an abscess.. the second vet took a sample and testing inside the "bulge" with a needle to comfirm it was filled with the caulk gunk. He said he had been working with rabbits for over 30years as a vet and owns rabbits himslef as pets, so I trusted he knew what he was doing. He said to me plainly, if this was his own rabbit, he'd do the surgery regardless of the possible risks involved.




 
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