Is tonight time for Sub-Qs?

[Jenk]

Our one girl (a 32-month-old Mini Rex) is shedding heavily and always has major troubles as a result despite twice-daily brushing. (She may have adhesions from her spay surgery; I can't think of another reason for all her shedding/digestive woes.)

Yesterday, she drank a bit less water than usual, and I noticed that her fecals were looking overly-dry (i.e., light-colored and smaller); so I syringed hernearly 50 cc's of very wateryCritical-Care over the course of the day. (I added only a touch of CC for flavoring and also because it contains papain (I think that's the enzyme, anyway).

This morning, things look worse:shepassed few fecals overnight;what she did pass is small and very light-colored.At this time, her eyes aren't sunken butlook slightly less pronounced than normal.

Should I wait to see what she's passed by this evening, or should I plan to just give her sub-Qs as soon as my husband gets home from work? (I'd have trouble giving fluids by myself; I would try, if necessary.)

Thank you,

Jenk

 

[Mrs. PBJ]

I would say give her a little but I am not completely sure hopefully a infirmary mod comes around very soon.

I hope your baby feels better.

Kat

 

[tonyshuman]

You know, I don't know what to say. I don't force feed my bunnies unless they won't eat anything, even their favorite treats when they're put in front of them. I don't force water into them unless they haven't pooped in several hours and/or aren't eating, with the same criteria as above.

IF you think she's going into stasis, which it sounds like you do, I would start by offering her a large bowl of pedialyte with some kind of flavor she loves, in addition to the water bowl. If she won't drink either of those, after waiting about 4 hrs, you could start syringing her water. I really try to let them eat and drink on their own and make it as appetizing as possible because force feeding and sub-q's can be stressful on an already stressed out bunny.

If it were my bunny, I would do the water/pedialyte thing I mentioned above, give simethicone 1cc/hr for 3hrs, give a dose of Bene-Bac, and leave out a plate of pumpkin puree along with some healthy, high-water veggies and lots of hay. If there's no eating, drinking, or pooing within 4 hrs, I'd start syringe feeding water/pedialyte, and pumpkin/pellet slurry. I would only go to sub-q's if the bunny won't let me force feed it water/pedialyte.

 

[jamesedwardwaller]

Jenk wrote:

Our one girl (a 32-month-old Mini Rex) is shedding heavily and always has major troubles as a result despite twice-daily brushing. (She may have adhesions from her spay surgery; I can't think of another reason for all her shedding/digestive woes.)

Yesterday, she drank a bit less water than usual, and I noticed that her fecals were looking overly-dry (i.e., light-colored and smaller); so I syringed hernearly 50 cc's of very wateryCritical-Care over the course of the day. (I added only a touch of CC for flavoring and also because it contains papain (I think that's the enzyme, anyway).

This morning, things look worse:shepassed few fecals overnight;what she did pass is small and very light-colored.At this time, her eyes aren't sunken butlook slightly less pronounced than normal.

Should I wait to see what she's passed by this evening, or should I plan to just give her sub-Qs as soon as my husband gets home from work? (I'd have trouble giving fluids by myself; I would try, if necessary.)

Thank you,

Jenk

lionhead,will require lots of water and timothy/orchard grasses,,keep her hydrated and non digestible fibers to keep that gitract running smooth,,if need be offer critical care,,soas she will get a supply of water---just use a small 3cc syringe,,not too much at one time,,watch her chewing-swallowing...a good diet consists of 70%-non digestible fiber..ie timothy/orchard grasses,,small amount of quality/lowfat/pellets,,and fruit tree branches/twigs for chewing on..sincerely james waller:wave::rose:

 

[Jenk]

tonyshuman wrote:

I don't force feed my bunnies unless they won't eat anything, even their favorite treats when they're put in front of them. I don't force water into them unless they haven't pooped in several hours and/or aren't eating, with the same criteria as above.

I know that people can't possibly remember all the details about my crew, so I understand why you'd think that I'm "force-feeding" water to my girl. That's not the case, though. I add a teeny-tiny amount of Critical Care (just to flavor the water), and she takes it willingly.

IF you think she's going into stasis, which it sounds like you do, I would start by offering her a large bowl of pedialyte with some kind of flavor she loves, in addition to the water bowl. If she won't drink either of those, after waiting about 4 hrs, you could start syringing her water. I really try to let them eat and drink on their own and make it as appetizing as possible because force feeding and sub-q's can be stressful on an already stressed out bunny.

Her previous stasis episode occurred last September and gave meno warning. Her behavior/appetite/thirst/output were all normal up until the time that she was pressing her stomach to the groundand urinating on herself. That is why I'm now trigger-happy at the very thought of her possibly on the verge of stasis.

I'll wait to see what she's produced in her box by 9 pm tonight. That way, I'll still have time before bed to make any necessary decisions (e.g., syringe her more water, give her sub-Qs, or do nothing).

If it were my bunny, I would do the water/pedialyte thing I mentioned above, give simethicone 1cc/hr for 3hrs, give a dose of Bene-Bac, and leave out a plate of pumpkin puree along with some healthy, high-water veggies and lots of hay. If there's no eating, drinking, or pooing within 4 hrs, I'd start syringe feeding water/pedialyte, and pumpkin/pellet slurry. I would only go to sub-q's if the bunny won't let me force feed it water/pedialyte.

I've syringed her a good bit of water today--again, it wasn't forced; she took it willingly from the syringe.

I couldgive her Simethicone, but she's not showing signs of gas discomfort. I have a pre-/probiotic that I could offer her, though I'm not sure how it would improvesmall/dry fecals if they're that way due tointestinal dryness.

:?

 

[tonyshuman]

Oh, I see. When you said you syringed her water, I assumed that meant she wouldn't take it willingly. It's more like you're bottle-feeding her water, I guess. She won't drink that same mixture on her own from a bowl?

I like to use probiotic pretty much on anything where the GI is not in order. That's because I don't think it can do harm, and all it can do is make the environment better for the good bacteria. That might make things go along better, that's why I recommend it. I agree, it probably isn't going to add more liquid to her feces, but it will make the rest of her system more stable.

There may be gas, even if there isn't bloating or she's acting like she's in pain. Whenever the GI slows down in a rabbit, it seems that gas starts to build up. That's why I recommend it.

 

[Jenk]

tonyshuman wrote:

When you said you syringed her water, I assumed that meant she wouldn't take it willingly. It's more like you're bottle-feeding her water, I guess.

I laughed at that statement because a baby isn'tconsidered to be "force-fed" from a bottle, but is"bottle-fed." So it's ironic that when we use the term "syringe-feed,"most pet owners think it means forcingfluids (or watery food) downan animal's throat. In that regard, I'm blessedur girls takeeverything willingly from a syringe, unless they feel downright awful.

She won't drink that same mixture on her own from a bowl?

I've tried it in the past, andtwo things happened: 1) She showed little interest in the water because the Critical Care settled to the bottom of the bowl; 2) she thought the bowl was there for her amusement and insisted on knocking it over.

I like to use probiotic pretty much on anything where the GI is not in order. That's because I don't think it can do harm, and all it can do is make the environment better for the good bacteria. That might make things go along better, that's why I recommend it. I agree, it probably isn't going to add more liquid to her feces, but it will make the rest of her system more stable.

When you give a probiotic, do you give it short-term (e.g., 3-4 days) to try to avoid a gram-positive bacteria overgrowth?

Whatconcerns me about probiotics is that rabbit-savvy vets don't agree on their effectiveness and/or possibledisruptive properties. Even an overgrowth of gram-positive bacteria requirestreatment. Our one girl was given Bene-Bac duringone particularantibiotic course. Her follow-up fecal culture then showedan "abundant" growth of the gram-positive bacteria in Bene-Bac.

While we're on the topic of probiotics, I'd like to recommend the product that my vet endorsesrobi (pronounced "Pro-bee," so I'm told). It'sa prebiotic/probiotic combination. Apparently, it's getting rave reviews in the horse community, which is how/why some rabbit-savvy vets are using it.

There may be gas, even if there isn't bloating or she's acting like she's in pain. Whenever the GI slows down in a rabbit, it seems that gas starts to build up. That's why I recommend it.

You're talking about Simethicone here--not a probiotic--right? I understand your point and will give her one dose of it today.

 

[Pipp]

Jenk wrote:

Our one girl (a 32-month-old Mini Rex) is shedding heavily and always has major troubles as a result despite twice-daily brushing.  (She may have adhesions from her spay surgery; I can't think of another reason for all her shedding/digestive woes.)

I know you've probably listed this before, but what exactly is her diet (including brands/contents, cuts of hay, etc).

What happens when you just give her a little pumpkin?

And I've probably said this before, but what you described as stasis sounds like a gas attack to me. With mine they come on suddenly, the rabbits looks really awful (including urinating on themselves) and snap out of it within 12 hours or so after extended tummy rubs, simethicone (not as important as the long tummy rubs I'm beginning to think), warmth and a bit of mild exercise. Not much in the way of fluids and no food.

Here's a link to a weekly care chart, you might want to start keeping one if you're not doing so. Might see a pattern.

http://www.oxbowanimalhealth.com/pet_care/printable_pet_journals

sas

 

[Jenk]

Pipp wrote:

I know you've probably listed this before, but what exactly is her diet (including brands/contents, cuts of hay, etc).

Hay: When she's shedding (like now), she gets 1st-cut timothy hay (available 24/7). I'll also give her a small handful of oat hay, ifI can manage to find it. When she's not shedding, she also gets a handful of either orchard or bermuda grass.

Pellets: She only gets 2 tsp. of Oxbow BB/T per day. I know that'sa tiny amount--even for a 3.25-lb. rabbit--but she had a major digestive issue a few weeks after I'd upped her ration to1 Tbsp. (i.e., 3 tsp.).

Greens: She receives a relatively small amount of greens because some previous gas episodes occurred shortly after I tried increasing her ration. She gets parsley (curly and Italian) and Romaine. (It got too hard buying a ton of greens that none of crew can stomach or won't eat.)

I thought that the increased pellet content caused her issue last Sept. (Her stomach was so hard/bloated that it really seemed more like a partial blockage, rather than just gas. But I'll never know.) Her vet said it's possible that she suffers from spay-surgery adhesions, which could explain how/why her digestive issues are so immediate (i.e., without warning).

What happens when you just give her a little pumpkin?

A long while back, I tried offering her plain canned pumpkin; I couldn't convince her to eat it. And because she's had definite gas episodes after eating greens, I'm always scared to give her extra greens as a means of increasing her fluid intake.

And I've probably said this before, but what you described as stasis sounds like a gas attack to me. With mine they come on suddenly, the rabbits looks really awful (including urinating on themselves) and snap out of it within 12 hours or so after extended tummy rubs, simethicone (not as important as the long tummy rubs I'm beginning to think), warmth and a bit of mild exercise. Not much in the way of fluids and no food.

Eight weeks prior to her last bad episode, she began shedding heavilyafter we humans left forvacation. (Figures.) The pet sitter was supposed to brush them but said upon our return that she couldn't because the girls kept running from her. (It's true that theybarely sit still for us.)

About 1.5 weeks after our return, our other Mini Rex passed a clump of fur--with just a fecal shell coating--that was 2" long and 3/4" wide. (I took aphoto of it next to a tape measurer; it seemed to defy the laws ofanatomy/Physics. )

I still believe that a build-up of fur started in our girl while we were gone and got caught in a tight spot many weeks later. But, then again, it could'vebeen just gas.

Here's a link to a weekly care chart, you might want to start keeping one if you're not doing so. Might see a pattern.

Thank you for sending thelink to those charts. For a long time now, I've kept track of our crews' diet,medical issues, and behaviorusingOutlook calendar printouts. Of course, no chart gives me enough room to detail the craziness that affects our crew; I always wind up writing notes on the backside.

Final note: I have yet to find a rhyme or reason to our girls sudden stasis bouts. She either goes off her water immediately, or she slightly decreases her consumption for a few days. The latter wouldn't affect most buns; it affects our girl.

 

[tonyshuman]

I wonder if she's got Spoiled Bunny Syndrome when she decides she wants to be fed that delicious liquid from a syringe? Too bad she can't do bowls--you could put out a bowl with CC flavoring or even grenadine (like I do) or some other juice. You could have a second water bottle with something just a tiny bit more interesting in it, for when she stops drinking.

I only give probiotic for a day or two at a time. I've never had issues last longer than a day. However, if my bunny were on antibiotics, I'd have no problem giving it every day of treatment, even for up to weeks at a time, but, since your girl has had the overgrowth of bacteria, it's probably best to not do it every day--maybe 2 at a time, take 2 off, etc.

Probi sounds fine. I like most of what comes out of the horse community--their vets seem to understand their complex GI tract better than many small animal vets understand a rabbit's similarly complex GI tract. However, I couldn't find the exact ingredients of it online. Do you have them?

I was talking about simethicone there. I agree with Sas that it sounds like gas. My guys will get it occasionally and that treatment I mentioned earlier clears it up. I don't necessarily feel bloating in their bellies, although I usually do hear gurgles.

 

[Jenk]

tonyshuman wrote:

I wonder if she's got Spoiled Bunny Syndrome when she decides she wants to be fed that delicious liquid from a syringe? Too bad she can't do bowls--you could put out a bowl with CC flavoring or even grenadine (like I do) or some other juice. You could have a second water bottle with something just a tiny bit more interesting in it, for when she stops drinking.

Emma'sdecreased water consumption always coincides with her shedding periods and/or digestive upset; it's not a case of SBS. Typically, she doesn't drink enough water for her system. And the more greens that she gets, the greater her chance for gas issues. Plus,extra greens put her off her water even more, while not providing enough moisture themselves.

She does drink from a crock dish. But if I put a second one in her pen, she'll treat it like a toy and dump it over--even if it contains flavored water.

Speaking offlavored water: I was advised by an exotics-only vetto not let it sit for longer than four hours due to the concern of bacterial growth. It gets tricky to provide/change water dishes at that frequency.

I only give probiotic for a day or two at a time....Since your girl has had the overgrowth of bacteria, it's probably best to not do it every day....

To clarify, the bun who had the floraimbalance caused by Bene-Bac is Zoe--not to be confused withEmma, who doesn't drink enough water.

Probi sounds fine. I like most of what comes out of the horse community--their vets seem to understand their complex GI tract better than many small animal vets understand a rabbit's similarly complex GI tract. However, I couldn't find the exact ingredients of it online. Do you have them?

I'm having trouble finding the ingredient list for Probi. (There is a site for a Swedish biotechnology company by that name; I'm uncertain that they're the makers of the product my vet uses. In case they are, their site is http://probi.se/en/.)

The only other info. I could find, which is very general, is here:

http://www.tacktrunkoh.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TTT&Product_Code=MAIN13&Category_Code=Supplements

At least this site clarifies that Probi is 90% prebiotic, 5% probiotic, and 5% enzymes.

I don't necessarily feel bloating in their bellies, although I usually do hear gurgles.

With Emma, we don't hear loud gurgles from a distance. She's extremely hard to read all around. (Our other two bunners tend to have loud tummy gurgles during times of digestive upset. I've heard them at times from across the room.)

I may gave Emma another dose of Simethicone today. At this point, I see no difference in her water consumption after giving her one Simeth. dose yesterday morning.

 

[Pipp]

Jenk wrote:

And the more greens that she gets, the greater her chance for gas issues. Plus,extra greens put her off her water even more, while not providing enough moisture themselves.

The greens provide plenty of moisture and roughage which is better than just water. If her water intake decreases, its because she doesn't need as much.

Its six of one, half dozen of the other. You take a chance with a hairball or gas. A gassy gut is a short term issue and rarely a big deal. (I'm sure a lot of bunnies get gas that goes unnoticed, but you notice everything). Stasis is far more serious and harder to treat.

The traditional molt/pre-stasis treatment has always been canned pumpkin.


sas

 

[Jenk]

Pipp wrote:

The greens provide plenty of moisture and roughage which is better than just water. If her water intake decreases, its because she doesn't need as much.

It's always seemed that when her water intake decreases--even due to a slight increase in greens--her fecals start decreasing in size and becoming bone-dry.

Myone consolation is that our other two bunners are big water drinkers.

The traditional molt/pre-stasis treatment has always been canned pumpkin.

A while back, someone suggested that I slowly introduce pumpkin to her by feeding onlya 1/2 tsp. of itfor several days. At that time, she refused to eat it. If Icould get her to eat it--and if her gut seems to tolerate it--what is a good cap-off (maximum) amount fora bun weighing only 3.25 lbs.?

If anything, I'm concerned about pumpkin's sugar content disrupting her digestive system;our crew doesn't receive any fruit or other sweet treats.

 

[Pipp]

Jenk wrote:

It's always seemed that when her water intake decreases--even due to a slight increase in greens--her fecals start decreasing in size and becoming bone-dry. 

----

If anything, I'm concerned about pumpkin's sugar content disrupting her digestive system; our crew doesn't receive any fruit or other sweet treats.

Pipp's poops are always tiny, its just something that happens with veggie diets, it's not a sign of trouble at all. If I'm concerned (and I've stopped being concerned) I'll give her pumpkin or spike a bowl of water with berry juice. (She never drinks ANY water otherwise).

But she's very healthy with the veggie diet (big salads and just a few pellets, no hay) -- no problems at all. And she used to have digestive tract issues including stasis and dysbiosis, and she had molar spurs. Now she only has little poops.

She didn't like pumpkin either at first. None of mine did, but now its considered a treat, they all love it. It just took some convincing. With Pipp I had to dry it out a bit in a paper towel and warm it up a touch. The other guys just kept getting a tablespoon full, sometimes with something they liked stuck in it. They eventually gave it a try and developed a taste for it. Rarely I've had to syringe feed it.

Pumpkin doesn't have any more sugars than carrots or anything else. Some natural sugars are fine for rabbits (unless they're overweight). The starches are bad.

And food is a huge part of their lives, I can't imagine them not getting a little fruit once in awhile. Even apple peels or something.

I honestly don't think your rabbits are getting the variety rabbits need. They sound really restricted.


sas