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TinysMom

TinysMom

Well-Known Member
Joined
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Location
, Texas, USA
I'm going to be doing some topics over the next few weeks and calling them "HOT" topics because they are issues that breeders often get "hot and bothered" about and argue about - and yes - we even get complaints about them.

But the fact is - there are times when there is good information to be shared within that topic - if we can keep the anger and/or judgmental attitude out of it.

I HATE conflict with a passion - but I have to admit - there are times when it is necessary to allow it for a purpose.

SO......with the following questions - let's discuss some issues that have come up on the forum that have to do with breeding.

Guidelines:

While I ask that we express our opinions - words like "stupid" and "idiot" are out. Do not JUDGE others or their opinions. Share your own - use FACTS and INFORMATION to back it up.

Remember - this forum is a place where we agree to hear everyone out - and then agree to move on even though we disagree with one another.

If you read someone's thoughts on here and take it to pm's and start labeling them stupid, etc - and they forward it to a moderator - warnings will be given, etc.

GOT IT?

Ok - please look at these questions and talk about your opinions and beliefs on them - and if at all possible - please share good REASONS why you would or would not do something.

[line]
  1. Breeding at shows. While show catalogs usually say this is not allowed without permission of the superintendent, etc. - this usually takes place anyway - in the back of a car or outside in a pen, etc.
    WOULD YOU BREED YOUR RABBIT AT A SHOW WITH ANOTHER RABBIT? WHY OR WHY NOT? WOULD YOU HAVE CERTAIN REQUIREMENTS? WHAT IF SOMEONE APPROACHED YOU ABOUT BREEDING YOUR RABBIT?
  2. Taking pedigrees to shows. Do you take yours? ALL of them? Just the ones for the rabbits you're selling? Why do you take them - or not take them?
  3. Taking young rabbits to shows - I want to preface this with the statement that many shows are "cooped shows" and you can only take the rabbits that have coops - while sometimes other shows allow you to bring any rabbits into the barn. Not all locations follow the same rules - so we can't just say "but its against the rules" - because it may not be against the rules where someone else lives. So....would you take young rabbits to shows? why? (I'm not advocating taking them to sell before 8 weeks of age - and that is not what I'm trying to discuss - more like - would you take them to show them off - or to take reservations on them?). Why would you not take young rabbits to shows? What dangers do you see in doing this?
[align=center]Let the fun begin!
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[align=center]1. Breeding at shows.
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Yes. I think that it's a great opportunity to bring in blood that's not from your own barn. However, I don't think it should be done against the rules. I always check the catalog to see if it's allowed or not.

Just a few weeks ago, at WA convention, I bred one of my bucks to a breeder's new doe. I really would like to establish a good relationship with this person, since they'll be one of the four or five shaded breeders around. And one of the three who get sable points with any regularity. Besides, I wanted to see what would come out of the pairing. That new doe was pretty awesome for a brood. LOL! Plus I'd love to go back, and buy a baby from her. I also bred the same buck, later that day, to a doe I was trading with someone. She got a bred brood doe, and I got a cute little tort jr. In any case, I think it's nice to take the rabbits outside, or to a car. I know I see it every few weeks, but it's really awkward to sit right next to someone who's table breeding two giant rabbits on a tiny grooming table.

At the same time... At a 4H show three months ago, there was one sentence in BOLD CAPS in the catalog. NO BREEDING. So what do I see on the last day of fair? Three different breedings. Not even on the table, they were just stuck in carriers, and left there for 30 minutes. Needless to say, these were 8 year old's bunnies. I was disgusted, and I really wanted to make a scene. But I held off.


[align=center] 2. Taking Pedigrees to Shows.
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I don't see why you wouldn't? Too many times I've gotten screwed because I didn't bring pedigrees with me.

Again, WA convention as an example. I didn't bring any pedigrees, but brought 5 sale rabbits. To be honest, I actually forgot the pedigree book at home... But I had my lap top, and evans, to show off the pedigrees (and later, print out ones from me. others I had to mail off). I even had offers on a (bought) rabbit I was planning on keeping. If I had brought the pedigree, I could have sold her and have been rid of this problem I'm having now with her.

Along with pedigrees comes everything else in that binder. My breeding chart (for people that ask when I'll have such and such available), my 4H record book to work on, if I get bored. Things to organize. Extra paper to write down things to remember, like sending off the bucks pedigree to the person mentioned above. (Which I forgot!)

In any case, you might as well have them. I always offer to mail off nicer pedigrees for anyone that buys stock from me. Ones printed on nice card stock paper. It's not often that I do end up doing that (and I don't want to waste the paper if the people don't care), but it makes a really nice looking ped!


[align=center] 3. Taking young rabbits to shows.
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If the rabbit doesn't make weight, it doesn't go. If the rabbit doesn't seem like it's where it should be for the age, it doesn't go. If the rabbit shows any signs of stress before hand, or as ANY loose poop, it doesn't go. I'll scratch the animal, rather than end up losing it. I've almost pulled a couple of juniors from a 3 day coop show, for that very reason. I would have lost all my premiums, but I'd rather have my buns.

I HATE seeing litters at shows! If it's not a young meat pen, it should NOT be there. There's too many things that could go wrong. And while it's bad to say, sometimes I almost wish they lose a baby or to, to learn the lesson that sometimes, babies just have to stay home.

And I will say; I am guilty of bringing babies with me. However, none of them have been 4~6 week olds. While, yes, 6 week olds can (and usually are) weaned... That does not mean they're ready to make any kind of trip away from home. I've brought 7 week olds to sell, since I was pressed for time and cage space. At this moment, two of them still linger around that I don't really want. (Well, a himi. I hate himis, and try to keep out of them.)

Ick.

Woah. I typed a lot. Sorry!
 
TinysMom wrote:
[line]
Click to expand...
  1. Breeding at shows. While show catalogs usually say this is not allowed without permission of the superintendent, etc. - this usually takes place anyway - in the back of a car or outside in a pen, etc.
    WOULD YOU BREED YOUR RABBIT AT A SHOW WITH ANOTHER RABBIT? WHY OR WHY NOT? WOULD YOU HAVE CERTAIN REQUIREMENTS? WHAT IF SOMEONE APPROACHED YOU ABOUT BREEDING YOUR RABBIT?
________________________________________________________

Breeding in the "showroom" is generally prohibited at the shows. What you do in your own car is your business. ;)We've done numerous breedings at shows among friends "outside" the showroom, however, I occasionally see people violating the show rule. (Remember this is an individual ruleset by shows - not an ARBA rule.) We would generally not allow someone to just come up and request a breeding due to risk of vent disease.


 
1. If you knew and trusted the breeder then ya, but I wouldn't break rules. It isn't something that anyone should do on the spur of the moment. Rabbits can carry STDs which could be passed onto your rabbit. If it were me, I would make sure I knew the breeder fairly well and throughly check the buck before hand.

2. I don't know much about that.

3. No I wouldn't, shows can be stressful for older rabbits and I don't think there is any need to put small babies through it. Plus there could be diseases brought in by other rabbits at the show, and you definitely wouldn't want to loose a whole litter of babies.
 
1. Yes I do breed my rabbits at shows but never in the showroom. One example is at nationals I won BOB in youth with a buck and I co-own him with his breeder and her partner now so in the last few months hes been at each of our houses but when I needed to breed to him he was somewhere else so she brought him to the show and we bred to him outside in her truck and there was no need for him to change locations for just 1 breeding.

2. I used to bring pedigrees when I had 5-10 rabbits but now that my herd is nearing 50 thats unrealistic, so I bring what I am showing and for sale rabbits pedigrees and any other ones I feel I might need.

3. My babies do not leave before 10 weeks except on rare occasions. I just don't have the need to. To tell the truth the very first rabbit I bought to show was 6 weeks old and besides minor problems from abrupt food change she was fine, the babies had weaned themselves early at 4-5 weeks.
 
1. Breeding at shows

I've never done this - although I've seen it done and heard of it done. I have been thinking about this and even discussed it with a flemish giant breeder that I got my girls from.

I think that if I had a relationship with a breeder already via. email/phone calls, etc and we had a plan for the litter (aka one person gets first choice or whatever) - I would probably go ahead and do this - depending upon the needs of my herd and upon the rabbit I'm considering breeding with.

For example - to my knowledge - there are no holland lops bred within about 3 hours driving time from me. I have considered contacting Cindy's breeder to see what shows he will be at this fall and seeing if he would be willing to let me breed her back to her father - and then he could get pick of the litter. This is one instance where I'd be willing to do something like this.

But I want to be pretty careful about the lines I'm using and I don't want to "dilute" my herd too much - I'd prefer to work with only 2 or 3 bloodlines and see how they mesh.

One of my biggest problems as a breeder is that when I like another breeder - I tend to want to help them along....and I suppose I could allow them to use a buck if I felt like their does didn't have vent disease, etc. But I don't think I'd want to use their buck with one of my does unless it was OUTSTANDING because I already like the lines I have.

Another thought - and this is gonna sound like I'm being...high-sounding or something - maybe arrogant...but I really only like to deal with breeders that I feel are professional about their breeding. I don't care about their pedigrees and who their rabbits come from or what the bloodlines are as much as I care about the rabbits I see in front of me.

If I feel like a breeder is working to improve lines and is working with good quality stock - I'm more likely to consider this than if it is someone I feel like is basically breeding for pets. (The exception to this being if I were to start breeding lionlops again because those would mainly be for pets).

So there is a lot that goes into this decision for me....I might say "yes" to one breeding at one show (outside the showroom) and "no" to most others.

I don't think its wrong to do - as long as its done outside the show.

However, I do know many breeders who will not do this at all or consider it at all -and I respect their decision too. I would never ask it of them since I know their feelings on this.

[line]2. Pedigreess

Call me crazy - but I would not want to bring my full book of pedigrees and stuff to a show. I find the idea to be cumbersome - it is one more thing for me to leave behind by mistake - and - I feel like if I allow folks to browse through it - it gives them more names and information to use to generate fake pedigrees. Yeah - call me jaded...that's ok.

However, if I was selling a rabbit - I would definitely bring their pedigree with me - and I probably would bring a list of breedings/planned breedings so I could let people know what I might have.

But - I wouldn't bring all of my pedigrees. I guess I'm just too ditsy and too paranoid I'd leave the book behind.

By the way - I did do this when I started - for my first two or three shows - and yes - once I almost left my book behind.

[line]3. Taking young animals to show

Here in Texas - our shows are pretty open unless it is the state show. Our animals aren't cooped during the show - so we set up our own carriers, etc. and wait for the rabbits to be judged. It seems like there are always babies there for sale or for people to look at - babies of all breeds. To be honest with you - I never really thought twice about it until recently because it seems like so many breeders do this.

Perhaps it is because our state (Texas) is so darn big and we're all so far away from each other. If we want to show off our babies and get people's opinions - this may be our chance to do so.

I know of one breeder (who I disagree with) who has taken babies to the state fair so folks could see them (the Dallas or Fort Worth paper did an article on the fair and showed pictures of the babies). Now that - I had problems with. You had thousands of people going by and wanting to pet the babies - and they were there for several days.

At our typical shows - you might have a hundred or two hundred people (at most) - and the majority of them are rabbit people. They won't handle the babies / youngsters without permission.

For some reason - about noon time or shortly afterwards - our area suddenly becomes overwhelmed by youth breeders....or just youth who are visiting. Word seems to get out that we allow them to pet our bunnies and play with them (if the animal wants it) and they can feed our bunnies treats, etc. (a grape or a piece of carrot or banana or whatever I brought for the bunnies). The kids love it - and so do the rabbits.

For a while we skipped shows because we weren't breeding and when we started back up again - some of the same kids as before came up to us to see our bunnies and asked us where we'd been. They remembered us...and our rabbits.

With that said - I can see why some would be concerned about taking younger rabbits to shows. Because that was the example I saw so often - I didn't really think twice about it...and to be honest with you - sometimes I want to expose my rabbits a bit more to things so they can build an immunity.

Anyway - those are just my opinions - remember - they're like feet - we all have them - and some stink. Its ok if you think mine stink!

:big wink:
 
1. Breeding at shows.

I would not breed my rabbits at shows. I know my rabbits, i have my bucks that i love and would never breed to any does other then my own because ofdisease.And the same with my does.


2. Taking Pedigrees to Shows.

Only of what im selling.

3. Taking young rabbits to shows.

Nope unless it is over 8 weeks old.


 
WOULD YOU BREED YOUR RABBIT AT A SHOW WITH ANOTHER RABBIT? WHY OR WHY NOT? WOULD YOU HAVE CERTAIN REQUIREMENTS? WHAT IF SOMEONE APPROACHED YOU ABOUT BREEDING YOUR RABBIT?

NO. NO NO NO. I don't want to put the health of MY RABBITS on the line just for a breeding. You don't know that the buck couldn't be infected with vent-disease or gods know what else. As far as if someone approached me about breeding to my rabbit... I'd tell them to screw off. I know that sounds harsh and all, but again, I won't risk any one of my bucks for your litter. If you want my lines you buy a rabbit, bottom line.

Taking pedigrees to shows. Do you take yours? ALL of them? Just the ones for the rabbits you're selling? Why do you take them - or not take them?

I bring my whole pedigree book because in it I can write down all the show information and everything. It also helps when you're a procrastinator like myself and need to write out pedigrees at a show.

Taking young rabbits to shows - Why would you not take young rabbits to shows? What dangers do you see in doing this?

NO. Seeing people with young rabbits at shows sets off a red flag for me. 8 weeks... fine. 6 weeks... I can maybe understand with the right circumstances. but anything younger than that sets off some alarms. To me it feels like, 1.) This is a person who has not done their research or does not care about the wellbeing of their animals, 2.)I would never ever consider buying from them because an animal's well-being starts at birth and 3.) I would never sell to them because I'd fear my own rabbits might not recieve the best care and I screen HEAVILY. I see it all the time at shows and it's painful to watch- people who want to show a mother rabbit and bring the babies and nestbox to the show! Just because it happens doesn't make it right. It's VERY dangerous. I don't take mine that yound to shows because, frankly, I worry about them a lot anyway. The stress/shock can kill them. What's the point? You can't show them, you can't tell type, you certainly can sell them... It's a fruitless venture. And that's all the reason I need. I won't do it personally and won't advocate it...
 
1. Have only done it once. never in the show room. I would breed if I can have something back out of the litter, and/or I personally know the owner.

2. I always take pedigrees to shows with me.

3. where I am at, you can bring anything you want into the show room. Most young babies that are brought in are for evaluation purposes only. Few are brought in, but few are also sold. som eare brought in by newbies. I have no problem evaluating babies to help a new person out. They are only there to learn, not to be judged. I would certainly never judge a new person for bringing young babies to a show when they are only asking for help. Now if they were selling them, that is a different story... However, I have purchased a couple of five week old babies that turned out to be a couple of the best florida whites I have ever had. Would I buy from them again, if they were still in the breed? You betcha! Those two rabbits were awesome. If you have a good eye, you can determine what the babies should turn out to look like at four to five weeks. Many of my winners were evaluated at that age. I have only sold one five week old recently at a show, with the understandng that it is a young rabbit, and that I may not be going to anymore shows this year, since my vehicle has been acting up again. This person had been waiting to get a doe from me for six months, and that was the only one I had produced(the rest have been bucks, bucks, and more bucks, grrrrrrrrr). This was under special circumstances since I I know her, and would be able to step in if there was a problem. As far as I know its been a week, and the baby is adjusting just fine. normally I don't take anything to a show that is under six weeks old. And even then it has to be showing signs of good body type, and color.
 
1. Breeding At Shows

I have done it once, and would probably do it again, but I wouldn't ever put two rabbits together whilst in the show room. Not only is it sometimes against the rules, but if there are non-bunny people walking through and looking at the rabbits, they don't need to see that.

My guidelines before have been that I will only stud my bucks that I KNOW are healthy.I usually ask a stud fee of $20, and I check the doe over and make sure she is free from diseases that could be passed through a mating. That being said, I've only done it once, and I had a sign on my carriers stating he was for stud, so it's not like I have people coming up to me and asking to use him. My bucks are available for stud under my discretion.

2. Taking Pedigrees to Shows

I usually just bring my whole rabbitry binder, and it already has all of my pedigrees in there. I keep it safe, usually under my grooming stand, or in a bag. There's more than just my peds in there, so someone, if they wanted to, would have to stand there for a while and search through the whole book to get to them. I don't allow people to look through this book, I'm the only one who sees it. :p lol.

3. Taking Young Rabbits to Shows

I have never took a rabbit under 10 weeks to a show with me. 10 weeks is usually the minimum age (That or 12 weeks) for rabbits to be shown, so that is the age I go by for taking pre-juniors to shows. I plan my breedings around shows for this very reason! So that they will be old enough not only to show, but to also sell. After one of my past litters, though, I'll probably be bumping that age up to 12 weeks, just because by that age, you usually know who's good and who isn't.

I will take 4/5 week old to 4-H meetings, but nothing younger, and they are just getting their genders double checked, no handling by anyone else (other than the person checking genders), no stress from being on the table. It's noisy at my meetings, but it's a LOT quieter than show.

Emily

ETA: typos... I need a new keyboard. :/

 
1. Breeding at shows.
I done this once with a breeder I got rabbits from. I wanted Tessa to get bred she was a year and still never had a litter. Well she did not want to get bred that night it never took. I would do it just as long as I know the breeder and needed to add to my lines.

2. Taking Pedigrees to Shows.

I take 2 folders with me one I keep in the car that is all originals. The other is a copy. If someone wants to buy a bun I give them the original with the sleeve. It will have any legs in there and all papers I get from the show. The copy is for me just in case I loose it or something.

3. Taking young rabbits to shows.

I would never take anything that I am not showing or selling. I sell babies at 10 weeks to make sure they are eating well. I did see 3 litters at the state fair. 2 were dutch and the other was a English lop all were under 4 weeks. I felt bad for them this was a loud place with roosters and ducks making so much noise. not to mention a ton of people poking fingers in there. No I do not think I will ever do that to my rabbits. If I did have a rabbit I wanted to show off to a friend and it was over 6 weeks then maybe but other than that no!








 
I'm about to head to bed......early (somewhat) and Art was just saying to me, "What about that hot thread? You're able to leave it and come to bed???"

Yeah - I've spent way way way too many nights up lately on the forum.

Anyway - I say all this to say a big hearty.....

[align=center]THANK YOU!!!!!

[align=left]Y'all rock. You were able to take a topic that could become controversial - talk about it without fighting against each other or taking things personally - and make good points.

You have no idea how happy that makes this moderator....to not have to worry about this thread but see that y'all are doing great with it.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

See you guys tomorrow - I'm dying to get on here and see if there have been any more comments.
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[align=left]1. Breeding at shows.[/align]
Personally, I have done this a few times. There are many many reasons why people do this and they are all vali in their own way. My story in particularhappened at the Texas state show in 2008 or 2009 i really can't remember. There was a buck that I really wanted to buy, but it did not belong to the person who was showing it and she said she would be in big trouble if she sold it to me. She did say that she would let me breed to it though. So I tried that. Unfortunately the breeding didn't take because that doe was already pregnant, silly silly me. A few months later she came up to me and told me she should have sold him to me because he was sitting in the barn not doing much any more. Funny irony. :) Another situation is at the county shows. I see breedings happen there all the time. Once all the rabbits are brought together at that show that only happens once per year, many people breed their rabbits, probably just for the heck of it but I don't judge. It can be a step towards real breeding for them if they start out in 4-H and FFA with people who can advise them wisely and even help them to sell their babies to other new people in the program who need them for projects as well.

2.Taking pedigrees to shows.

I have a book with all of the pedigrees of all of my rabbits in it. I take it to every show, and print off the pedigrees of rabbits I am selling before every show. I keep everything I could possibly need for a show organized in a backpack- rabbit food, water, all of my entry info, my pedigree book, and all of my groming supplies. I like this method as everything is all on one place, yet there are enough pockets that everything can be put in its place where I can find it.

The pedigree book stays in the backpack at all times unless I have to pull it out to get a pedigree for someone who is buying a rabbit, or putting comment cards inside of the plastic covers behind the pedigrees for rabbits I am showing. People don't even know it exists until they see it.

In my opinion it is very important to have the pedigrees all before the show, as it can mean the difference between selling or not selling the rabbit if it isn't obviously an amazing one that would be very sought after.

3. Taking young rabbits to shows.

If there is a good reason to take them, in my opinion it's fine.

I have taken 5 week old babies to a show because there was someone there who wanted to look at them to see if she wanted to buy one. It was very convenient for both of us because we were in the same place at the sam time. This was at a county show and there was a great multitude of kids there who would have wanted to hold them and play with them and I was repeatedly asked if they could, but I didn't let them. What I was afraid of was that someone would just walk off with one of them. There were six of them and that is a very hard number to keep track of with the added commotion of trying to help my friends with their buns they had never showed before and trying to show my own older rabbits.



For all of these topics though, everything is very conditional. Some people will, and some people won't, allfor their own reasons.
 
lelanatty wrote:
For all of these topics though, everything is very conditional. Some people will, and some people won't, allfor their own reasons.
Click to expand...

Exactly - also - from the things I hear from others - I get the feeling that here in Texas our clubs are pretty darn laid back and willing to let most anything go....but I could be wrong.


 
Breeding at the shows:

I have done this and I will probably continue to do this. I breed in the trunk of my car or outside in the parking lot. I have no problem breeding to a friends rabbit or vice versa. All my friends let me check over their rabbit and I let them check mine. I, however, will not breed a rabbit for someone I don't know. I agree with the show rules about no breeding in the showroom because sometimes the other rabbits smell this and they go nuts...lol. I also have seen people take out rabbits that were not theirs and mate them with their rabbit. And yes, I do tell on them...lol

If someone approached me about breeding their rabbit I would consider it if I know the original owner of the rabbit or if I can check out the rabbit. For example, they may have just purchased a doe from a friend of mine. This would be like mating for my friend. However, I am not hesitant about telling people no. It is my rabbit first and foremost and if I don't want to breed it, I won't. However, I will whenever I can because in my area, we don't have a lot of Dutch or Wooly breeders so it is easy to get people started this way. Safety first though!



Taking pedigrees to shows:

I usually take all my pedigrees to the shows. I find it easier than trying to take only the ones for sale, plus if someone asks me a question, I can easily answer it. I have a VERY BAD memory and honestly can't remember my rabbits birthdates or who their parents are and I only have 32 at the moment. I have to keep VERY GOOD records, which I do. My pedigree books just usually stay in the car unless I need them for something. I have a show program so I can easily print out more copies if I ever lose my book.



Taking young rabbits to shows:

It depends on the reason. If you are asking for showing, then no. If you are asking to bring because of other reasons then yes. Showing is a no, no because young juniors are more likely to pick up a disease and not be able to fight it off. Also, they just don't compete against the older juniors or the seniors so why waste your money. Also, the stress alone from the car ride there is enough to kill them.

There are other reasons in which I have had to take babies to the shows. I have had to hand raise an entire litter before and have had to bring them to shows so that I could bottle feed them every few hours. I have also had issues with babies and had to bring them so I could get opinions from other breeders.

Sharon
 
[align=left]1. Breeding at shows.[/align]
I havent done this before, so I dont know. But if some offers one of my does to breed with a good buck, I would.

2.Taking pedigrees to shows.

Yes, always do. I keep my pedigrees in a clearfile, I need them for the breed classes at the show just in case someone asks me about them.

3. Taking young rabbits to shows.

No, I show under the rules and the show does not allow that, the rabbit could have a virus and the show bunnies could catch it.
 
[align=left]1. Breeding at shows. [/align]
[align=left]yes I have bred rabbits at shows for youth that I am trying to get started and for friends to help them out. I do check the does and know the people. I would never stud my rabbits out to people that I don't know.

2.Taking pedigrees to shows.
the only time I take a pedigree to a show is if the rabbit is sold and being picked up at the show.
3. Taking young rabbits to shows.

I have taken 8 week or older rabbits to a show to be picked up by their new owners or to get another set of eyes on them for evaluation. They don't go into the showroom though.

[/align]
 
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