Harlequin Flemish

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weedflemishgiants

weedflemishgiants

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May 26, 2008
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Location
Weed, California, USA
This is a problem for me.I have three lines of flems that have no harlie genes. None.

But I have done all the breeding with them I can do without crossing my lines which I really really don't want to do. For one thing thre are color issues.

So I went on a search for new rabbits. i have one or two coming from back east after Kentucky ARBA.

Our flem pop is really small here on the west coast. I have to be careful not to buy rabbits mine are too closely related too and the actual fact is where I am all the flems here are brother and sister to mine. Which is great because I sold them all but the downside is getting new stock.

There are two or three breeders out here really heavy into breeding harlequin flemish. They make great pets I guess. But they have sold so many of these (and not always mentioned the harlie) to other people that the other people are just now finding out their rabbits are carrying the harlie gene. A real bummer for those who want to show their rabbits.

So now it is an added complication that I have to make sure I get no harlie flems but I can't always tell when there is harlie because some of the them come out nice solid color fawns. So I only know of ONE breeder in California, ONLY ONE that absolutey will not sell me a harlie fawn, white or sandy. But our lines may be too closely related- I don't know yet.

Now another breeder was telling me the other day that the harlie gene can be turned off or eliminated with proper breeding. I can't see that happening. It seems the harlie gene might be suppressed completely but pop up later in just the right breeding pair. I don't see that it is realistic to assume the rabbit line would never carry it. Does anyone know what she is talking about? "Getting rid of a gene"?

My current rabbits are carrying six gen pedigrees with no harlie in them. And the foundation stock came from three breeders back east who I KNOW did not breed harlies in. So mine are free of the gene and I would like them to stay that way.

Very frustrating. I will have to get ALL my new stock from back east which is expensive and takes a long time.


 
A Harlequin Flemish? Do you have pictures?!
 
weedflemishgiants wrote:
No I don't have any.

You can see pictures if you google for Double L Rabbit Ranch. She has a bunch of them mostly blue and white, black and fawn.
Click to expand...
OMG! The nine Fawn Flemish together!!! My dream is to be owned by a fawn flemmie doe. I even have her name!
 
That Harli gene can be carried recessively (hidden) for many generations. You may not see it, but it's there. I don't know any way to "breed it out" and if it doesn't present, I don't know anyway to be sure it's bred out of a line. I know several (Mid-west) breeders that have had "surprises" 3, 4 and 5 generations after introducing an unknowncarrier.

I know some breeders on the East Coast have lines that don't carry it. And some breeders in the northern Mid-west have clean lines too. Geographically, it can be difficult to acquire rabbits that have what you want. But the effort is well worth it, if you get what you want and what your lines need. It's real important to deal with someone who is honest and has the same ideals in mind as you do.
 
undergunfire wrote:
A Harlequin Flemish? Do you have pictures?!
Click to expand...
my thought exactly, LOL!
 
It would be one thing if there was a standard for it. But there is not. So it complicates the lives of breeders for shows.

Not only that but in my experience breeding it in is bringing other problems as well. For instance one friend of mine who got a bunch of blues had terrible malocclusions in them. So he returned the blues to the breeder who said "I am so glad to have them back. Their brother died and he was the only one left with the harlie gene"

I'm afraid my friend was less than happy for two reasons. No one told him he had bought blues with harlie genes- a complete surprise- and also the breeder immediately set about breeding these harlie flems with malocclusions.

Wow. So you know I got my copy of domestic rabbits last week and in under research and development, they were talking about the need to research why malocclusions were on the increase? I mean, well, duh. Isn't it obvious? People are breeding maloccluded rabbits for heaven's sakes.



I had the same problem with a flem I got last year. Gorgeous rabbit, but small. Ended up with the worst malocclusion the vet had ever seen. Researching this supposedly pure bred flem I discovered her mom was a beveran. Bummer for me.

We had to put the bunny down it was so bad. Thankfully- she was never bred.

It is just like a minefield shopping for good flems out here. LOL
 
I don't think the Harli will ever be accepted as a Flemish Variety. (JMHO) You are in apredicament. Breeding with locally available Flemish might not be the best option. If you get a "clean" buck and doe, they and their offspring can be crossed with your other 3 lines. (Sorry, I'm not sure what colors you are working with besides Sandy). If you can acquire Flemish from honest breeders that are open about what their lines carry, you would have something to continue with.

My barn has been "closed" to new blacks or blues for several years now. For some of the same reasons you mentioned... We have some breeders on the east coast working with Opals... and a blue that carries Opal is not coming into my breeding lines. We have some people crossing a Continental Giant into their Flemish. Are the offspring still purebred Flemish? (Because the Continental has a different written standard, I don't think so... others may disagree.And the Continental is not an accepted breed in this country.)

I have nothing against developing new colors, or improving breeds. But people buying those rabbits don't always know they are getting a genetic pool mixture that many breeders don't want in their lines.


 
I know I am getting one or twofawns from a good breeder in Michigan this year out of ARBA.

Those I am sure are clean.

My sandy line I have been breeding BEFORE the continentals got out here. The problem with the continentals when I have seen them at shows out here is their body type is all wrong for a flemish. To straight in the rise. What am I saying? there is no rise.

So I know my sandies are clean. I am getting also two sandies from down south, acrossthat is clean.

My other line is from a good mid west breeder. OUt of rabbits he sent out here from ARBA. So THOSE are clean as well. Funny thing is none of mywhites look anything like the other whites around here so I may have to get one more white out from him. My whites are much larger, longer and with longer ears.

So right now, I KNOW my lines are clean, no beverans, new zealands and no harlequins.

I have heard of NO one breeding opals yet out here. Everything else but not opals. One of the major problems of breeding for harlie is they do not have the same body type, head shape or ears as flemish either. So it doesn't just screw up the color, it screws up everything.

And then to top it all off, a friend of mine called me a little while ago and told me a person who bred two blue rabbits together got lilacs. Lilacs. And I said no way it must be an off colored blue. And apparently one of our all time most famous judges because he won ARBA with a flemish DQ'd the juniors because, sure enough, they are lilacs. The only thing I can think is the two blue parents must have been carrying the lilac harlequin gene and no one told the buyers.

Therein lies the rub. I have nothing against people experimenting with rabbits. But they kind of need to tell the future owners what they are getting.





Edited to remove names.
 
Your friends "lilacs" may just be very poorly colored blues. It is the main reason I do a blue-black breeding (as opposed to a blue-blue breeding) at least every second or third generation. The black keeps the blue color strong and deep. Too many generations of Blue-Blue breedings can really wash out the color. Yeah, they may present as Lilac's, for lack of a better description.

The blue color is recessive, very recessive. It has to be worked on very diligently and consistantly. Any blacks crossed in have to be "self" blacks... no Light Gray, no Steel, no White. Straight blue and black lines. (It's taken me YEARS to develop my own black lines for crossing with the blues. Blacks are always an "afterthought" to most breeders. Very few "do" black... some keep them just for crossing back into steels and light grays.... ) I'd suggest your friend locate a good black to cross with one of their blues. Don't repeat that blue-blue cross... the blue gene could be too dilute, too washed out.
 
Hmm. That is what I thought myself. I have seen many washed out blues but I would not call them lilacs. But everyone else is calling them lilacs so....we have an awful lot of lilacs out here then. LOL

How in the world does someone get an opal color in a flem? What colors do you have breed to get it, or does it take another breed to introduce it?


 
You get an opal by crossing a blue and a sandy... the results of that breeding are commonly called chestnut steels (UGLY! ....JMHO!). Those offspring bred back to a blue (or to each other... yuck!) usually result in opals or something close. Unfortunately, any blues out of the breedings have poor color and can't be used for breeding anything except opals. And any Sandys that "pop" out later have color problems and can't be used with other Sandys.

I know people do it... I know breeders on the west coast as well as the east coast that cross colors, but I don't think it's the right thing to do. Some breeders have been trying for years to get the opal accepted as the "8th Variety"... but it's never been accepted.
 
Okay I can see that and yes now I read your description- I HAVE seen them.

But the opals and contis- they will become non issues. Because a. we have enough good sandy colored stock in the states that we don't need to worry about that. We don't have as much blue but the variety will still exist.

The contis- first you have the issue of the dark, dark, german sandy color which is not standard anyway, the contis are not recognised IN this country yet and most of all no one in their right mind is going to want to buy a flemish for show that has a flat back. Which for all practical purposes is what flemish/conti crosses produce. Flat backs with big heads and ears and too dark of a color.

I don't see opals and contis as nearly the issue as harlie flems. That is a HUGE problem. In every litter of flems with harlie in the back ground you get maybe two or three blotchy babies- not true harlies- and a gaggle of solid good looking flemish. It is the solid color good looking flemish that is the problem because they have that harlie yet there is no way to know it at all unless someone tells you.

So people buy these harlie flems not knowing they are harlies and actually win at the show. This is a HUGE problem. One just cannot cull for color to get rid of it like opals.Not possible. Especially when you consider the body type of the original harlie bred in as a Japanese harlie- radically different from a flemish.


 
The conti's, when crossed with Flemish, are throwing babies with some rise. (Yeah, with HUGEheads and incredibly wide ears!) When crossed with whites, (or with whites out of a cross) the white babies mask all background color. And they are being sold as Flemish. Now cross them with your Light grays or Steels... and guess what you get...

The first generation Conti crosses (with Sandys) do not have good color, but bred back to Sandys, the color improves slightly... Unfortunately, sold as Juniors, they don't look bad... as Seniors, they develop black/grey bars on the legs, dark heads, unusual ear lacing... By the third generation the color improves... but again, you still get some poorly colored offspring.

Conti's were crossed into Flemish many years ago... and a lot of the old time breeders still see color and confirmation issues in some lines.

The Harli's are a problem. I know some breeders think they can "breed it out". And after a while, with diligence, itshould show up less and less... many, many generations forward... but as you said, you can never be sure if you have a carrier. And it makes it really hard when you need to introduce new rabbits to the line.
 
I'm not sure what yu would get crossing one of those to a steel. A gold flecked steel maybe?

I don't know. the only time I saw them was when someone brought one to a show out here. And it's back was FLAT, oh yeah.

Huge head, wide wide ears and a gigantic rear end but not a detectable rise. The hips were up in the air and also it resulted with the hips being significantly wider than the shoulders.

Maybe three gens down it works I don't know. I just saw the first crosses. They were brought TO the show but not entered as there were not pure bred.
 
Bars yeah I forgot about bars. They would have those as well.

The steel crossing does not bother me as much as crossing with a black or a light gray. What a prescription for disaster.

Are you saying that in the sandiesthey lose that German dark shade in the second gen?
 
It takes a few generations to lessen the dark shading... and it may not show in all the offspring after 3 - 4 generations, but it's never completely gone. Just like the Harli genes. You never know when they will pop up again!
 
So now I am looking at my evans register and it is telling me I can set the phenotypes for the bunns. I only raise Flemish, but I have all the color genetics on the register for every rabbit known to mankind but I don't know how to set the non defaults to Flemish. Do you?
 
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