The Turtle
Well-Known Member
OK, normally I don't go off on things like this, but after the last day or so dealing with one potential buyer, I just have to say something here.
First of all, we do Flemish. It's all we do. In Flemish, in some ways we have it easy compared to a lot of breeds. We have seven colors, and they're all (for all practical purposes), solid. Black, blue, fawn, light gray, sandy, steel gray, white. That's it, babe. We don't have to worry about patterns, spots, pointed this or otter that. A Flemish just IS what its color is.
That last color, "white," is the issue here. In physics, white is the presence of all colors, but in wabbits, it's the absence of ALL color.
We had a litter of whites three months ago. Seven terrific kits, their dad is a Grand and mom has one leg (mostly because she's young and has been off the show circuit for four months having kits). They are as white as copier paper, except for the fact Dad is a big slob and stains himself all the time.
Anyway, when the kits were really young, a guy from Pennsylvania emails me asking if I had a breeding pair of whites. I told him that we'd just had a litter of whites and didn't know what we had, and if he was still interested, email me in June when we knew what we had. Never mind that I would not sell a pair out of the same litter for breeding, but would suggest instead that he get maybe a doe from us and a buck from somebody else. Never heard anything more from the guy.
Well, most of that litter is gone now, sold to other breeders and some people who appreciate whites. As of the other day, we had one doe and one buck left, and the doe was spoken for, so we've been trying to figure out what to do with the buck. I pulled up the guy's email and asked if he was still interested.
He sent me an email back asking if they were "pure" whites. Now, I don't know about you, but I have no idea what "pure" means. I explained that if all you ever do is breed Flemish whites to other Flemish whites, eventually their fur gets all cottony and they're basically unshowable. I gave him contacts for other regional breeders (there aren't many who do whites) and suggested he check with them for a doe. He replied, and kept going on about this "pure white" thing. I explained that to get better fur quality, Flemish breeders will often breed a white to a light gray... whites often have better size, but light grays have much better fur texture. You'll get a mixed bag of kits, but the whites will still be true whites, and if you breed a white to a white, you will not get anything but whites, short of some magic or a mutation.
Well, this guy went off and talked to a couple of other breeders and came back to me, dismissing the other breeders as "they don't know what they're talking about." Basically, they all said the same thing: to get better fur, whites are often crossed with light grays. This guy had somehow concocted the idea that if a white and a non-white are crossed, the white kits aren't this "pure" white he has in mind.
Now, in 1975, Mrs. Giacomo beat 8th grade biology into me, and one thing I do know is how recessive genes work. Whites had no gene for color, so if you breed a white to a white, their kids will all be white. 100%. It's not like they can go down to Target and pick up a gene that will make one kit magically be steel gray or fawn. It just... doesn't... happen. I remember such things, particularly when I've had them screamed at me by a neurotic Italian lady for 40 weeks a year.
Well, this guy wasn't buying it. He was ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you could not possibly have whites whose parents were anything else and get "true" whites, or this "pure white" he was after. And eventually he pulled the age card on me:
"Besides Iam 89 yrs old and have raised a numerous number of different breeds over my life time and the is no possibly way to have a oure white if there is coloured parentage to it it my be white yes but ITS NOT A PURE WHITE theres no possible way"
Ummm... what?
Every white IS a pure white. Period. If you have a white with gray or brown on it, then it's not a white, it's some washed-out fawn or light gray or whatever, it's not a white. Kinda like blue-eyed whites versus red-eyed whites: they are what they are.
And the dumbest thing was this:
"But the person I was talking too about the white flemish only got his white from 2 gray parents when i ask if they were pure white he tells me yes which they are not pure white though besides I dont care about SHOW QUALITY I just want some pure whites to breed with my White New Zealands for meat purposes."
BZZZZZZT!!
I immediately understand two things:
Like I said, this is just sort of a rant. I just sort of shake my head when people are so darn convinced they and only they know what they're talking about, even when confronted by consistent statements from several different breeders that are 180 degrees opposite from what they're "sure" of. I shake my head even more when people whip out the "I'm old as dirt so I must automatically be right" card, because I am old enough to know that doesn't work.
And now this guy is going to go off and grumble for the rest of his days about how all these young breeders don't know a **** thing and he will never be able to quite explain why, because he doesn't seem to grasp the science behind it, science that's a lot older than me and him combined.
I'm not here to teach genetics. Mrs. Giacomo is retired, so she ain't gonna do it. I'm not even here to teach spelling and punctuation. Mr. Rehor is long dead. I'm just here to find good people who want good wabbits, and breed the best wabbits I can.
I just shake my head.
Turtle
First of all, we do Flemish. It's all we do. In Flemish, in some ways we have it easy compared to a lot of breeds. We have seven colors, and they're all (for all practical purposes), solid. Black, blue, fawn, light gray, sandy, steel gray, white. That's it, babe. We don't have to worry about patterns, spots, pointed this or otter that. A Flemish just IS what its color is.
That last color, "white," is the issue here. In physics, white is the presence of all colors, but in wabbits, it's the absence of ALL color.
We had a litter of whites three months ago. Seven terrific kits, their dad is a Grand and mom has one leg (mostly because she's young and has been off the show circuit for four months having kits). They are as white as copier paper, except for the fact Dad is a big slob and stains himself all the time.
Anyway, when the kits were really young, a guy from Pennsylvania emails me asking if I had a breeding pair of whites. I told him that we'd just had a litter of whites and didn't know what we had, and if he was still interested, email me in June when we knew what we had. Never mind that I would not sell a pair out of the same litter for breeding, but would suggest instead that he get maybe a doe from us and a buck from somebody else. Never heard anything more from the guy.
Well, most of that litter is gone now, sold to other breeders and some people who appreciate whites. As of the other day, we had one doe and one buck left, and the doe was spoken for, so we've been trying to figure out what to do with the buck. I pulled up the guy's email and asked if he was still interested.
He sent me an email back asking if they were "pure" whites. Now, I don't know about you, but I have no idea what "pure" means. I explained that if all you ever do is breed Flemish whites to other Flemish whites, eventually their fur gets all cottony and they're basically unshowable. I gave him contacts for other regional breeders (there aren't many who do whites) and suggested he check with them for a doe. He replied, and kept going on about this "pure white" thing. I explained that to get better fur quality, Flemish breeders will often breed a white to a light gray... whites often have better size, but light grays have much better fur texture. You'll get a mixed bag of kits, but the whites will still be true whites, and if you breed a white to a white, you will not get anything but whites, short of some magic or a mutation.
Well, this guy went off and talked to a couple of other breeders and came back to me, dismissing the other breeders as "they don't know what they're talking about." Basically, they all said the same thing: to get better fur, whites are often crossed with light grays. This guy had somehow concocted the idea that if a white and a non-white are crossed, the white kits aren't this "pure" white he has in mind.
Now, in 1975, Mrs. Giacomo beat 8th grade biology into me, and one thing I do know is how recessive genes work. Whites had no gene for color, so if you breed a white to a white, their kids will all be white. 100%. It's not like they can go down to Target and pick up a gene that will make one kit magically be steel gray or fawn. It just... doesn't... happen. I remember such things, particularly when I've had them screamed at me by a neurotic Italian lady for 40 weeks a year.
Well, this guy wasn't buying it. He was ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you could not possibly have whites whose parents were anything else and get "true" whites, or this "pure white" he was after. And eventually he pulled the age card on me:
"Besides Iam 89 yrs old and have raised a numerous number of different breeds over my life time and the is no possibly way to have a oure white if there is coloured parentage to it it my be white yes but ITS NOT A PURE WHITE theres no possible way"
Ummm... what?
Every white IS a pure white. Period. If you have a white with gray or brown on it, then it's not a white, it's some washed-out fawn or light gray or whatever, it's not a white. Kinda like blue-eyed whites versus red-eyed whites: they are what they are.
And the dumbest thing was this:
"But the person I was talking too about the white flemish only got his white from 2 gray parents when i ask if they were pure white he tells me yes which they are not pure white though besides I dont care about SHOW QUALITY I just want some pure whites to breed with my White New Zealands for meat purposes."
BZZZZZZT!!
I immediately understand two things:
- He's raising for meat, and he wants "pure white" so the carcasses aren't sullied by stray visible dark hairs;
- He didn't read our farkin' site when he contacted us two months ago, or he'd have seen that we do not sell wabbits for meat or to be bred for meat. Period.
Like I said, this is just sort of a rant. I just sort of shake my head when people are so darn convinced they and only they know what they're talking about, even when confronted by consistent statements from several different breeders that are 180 degrees opposite from what they're "sure" of. I shake my head even more when people whip out the "I'm old as dirt so I must automatically be right" card, because I am old enough to know that doesn't work.
And now this guy is going to go off and grumble for the rest of his days about how all these young breeders don't know a **** thing and he will never be able to quite explain why, because he doesn't seem to grasp the science behind it, science that's a lot older than me and him combined.
I'm not here to teach genetics. Mrs. Giacomo is retired, so she ain't gonna do it. I'm not even here to teach spelling and punctuation. Mr. Rehor is long dead. I'm just here to find good people who want good wabbits, and breed the best wabbits I can.
I just shake my head.
Turtle
anic::nono
