Fuzzy's Sick :(

[Pipp]

My homeless friend Bunny George has a fuzzy lop with pus on her bottom front tooth. He has no money. (Obviously). I have no money. (Especially not for someone else's rabbit).

But I can't let this girl go untreated so I'm going to pick her up tomorrow, take her in to the vet and hope for the best.

What are the chances of this abscess being treatable with antibiotics alone? I'm not sure what they'll prescribe.

What are the average costs of injectibles?George is crazy, but he's not stupid. He'll be able to give her injectibles, although I'm not sure thevet allows that. They don't allowhome subq infusions.

I'm going in by myself, Georgehas no one to watch his trolley. (Amazing that he'll let me take her).

For those not familiar with theGeorge story,he lives on the street with10 bunnies in wooden boxes and cages on a cart-like set up. I've been trying to get these bunnies in a better situation for ages, even before he got them.I tried to find a rescue or org who would give him a neutered/spayed bunny, but none of them would (not surprising), so he ended up with an unfixed girl -- the fuzzy -- and a unneutered dutch boy. (I don't know that he gives them names, or their names change, but he'll always give you an alias if you ask, she's'Fuzzy').

The lop ended up with a couple of litters starting from when she was only four months old ((so much for keeping them apart, George :X ). His other bunnies have a not-so-horrible life -- like a breeder's bunnies --but hers is really bad because he has to groom her all the time. He's pretty rough -- he thinks she has 'bugs' and uses straight alcohol. She was always biting him, now I think she's given up.

He's very protective of her - says she's 'fragile' -- thus she never gets out of her box. She can hardly hop when she does. That makes him think she needs even more protection, so he lets her out even less. She's also fed a pellets-only diet (alfalfa), George doesn't trust 'plants' like hay and veggies, and can't afford good brands.

She's in with some of her babies, so at least she's not lonely.

I'm also not sure what the vet will do in terms of releasing her back to him -- I pretty much have to tell them the history, especially if I can't pay the bill. (I know they'll give me time to pay it at least). Not sure if they can seize her, if they'll call the SPCA or what. (My last attempt at telling the SPCA that his bunnies needed help resulted in them citing me for my cat having a mat). :grumpy:

I just hope she's okay. This rabbit really deserves something good in her life.:tears2:

I'm meeting George at 9 AM. I really hope he shows up.

sas :tears2:

 

[Maureen Las]

Hey sas

Pus on a tooth could be an abscessed toothbut it seems like they would have to do x-rays to determine anything .If the tooth was pulled it doesn't mean that she has a serious Jaw abscess...could be.. but it could also belike Beau ..just bad (decaying)teeth , mouth inflammation but no abscess.

if the tooth is badshe would stillimprove on antibiotics but there wouldn't be any resolution to the problem without taking care of the tooth. I do believe that some rabbits with inoperable jaw abscesses (abscess imbedded in jawbone )are treated with bicillin but I am onsure of the outcomeor the length of treatment
i have no idea why they wouldn't release the lop to george if you say you're responsible for the bill.
To be honest you could ask the vet what the minimum treatment would be so the lop wouild still get relief and try to go with that, however ..

Whenever I have tried to cut costs early on I always get hit with a worse problem later on but sometimes I still go that route.

I don't know how you get bicillin in canada but i can get it at a farmstore for about $12.00 ,no prescription . I mean it is an inexpensive tratment.

The problem I see is that george wouldnot be able to give injections using sterile technique which is really necessary.

if randy see this later I'm sure he can enlighten both of us but I have had some experience with beau's $$$$million dollar mouth

 

[Maureen Las]

Hi sas
I just wrote a long reply and lost it

Pus on the tooth could be adecayed tooth or an abscessed tooth or jaw but only an x-ray could determine that..so you almost have to have that done. Depending on what they find would determine whether an antibiotic could be helpful without another procedure like removing teeth (or one). In some cases when a bun has an inoperable jaw abscess (jawbone too fragile) I believe that a vet might use a palliative method like treating with bicillin. I am unsure how successful this is without doing anything else. I hope Randy adds to this later
If you were to use bicillin and get it yourself at a farm store it is inexpensive ..about $12.00 for a big vial that would last months,
I would be concerned about George giving sq injections because he probably would not be able to do it in a sterile environment. (unless he uses the alcoholto clean the tops of the vial rather than Fuzzy)
Why wouldn't they releaseFuzzy to George if you took responsibility for the bill?
i hope that he meets you and it turns out "not so bad"

it's always something..
Hope that you get some more replies in the AM

Maureen

 

[Maureen Las]

Apologies for the triplets

 

[Pipp]

angieluv wrote:

Hi sas
I just wrote a long reply and lost it

Ah, you didn't lose it, it just gave you an error message and posted it anyway. That's been happening to me, too.

angieluv wrote:

If you were to use bicillin and get it yourself at a farm store it is inexpensive ..about $12.00 for a big vial that would last months,

After paying $40 in gas to run outto feed store forhay and supplies (and picking up rabbits at the airport), not sure that option really would be cheaper anymore. :sigh:


angieluv wrote:

I would be concerned about George giving sq injections because he probably would not be able to do it in a sterile environment. (unless he uses the alcoholto clean the tops of the vial rather than Fuzzy)

Good point. But he is pretty alcohol-crazy, he disinfects everything -- even the scissors when he clips them I think. So should be an issue -- although he might be doing it in a tent without running water.

angieluv wrote:

Why wouldn't they releaseFuzzy to George if you took responsibility for the bill?

If they think an animal is being 'abused' I think they call they SPCA, not sure if they canrefuse to give back while they wait for the SPCA to respond. They may think she's in poor condition and not being cared for properly because of George's living arrangments. I don't know. I doknow that the SPCAhavebeenissuing him citationsand demanding changes in their care and he hasn't done that, so they'reprobably prepared to take at least some of hisbunnies. (And I have to say that Fuzzy needs to be somewhere where she has access to vet care, better nutrition, etc, although separating her from her babies (Ithingshe's with two of them) would also be sad, so it's a tough call. (Although it seems to me she wasn't an incredibly enthusiastic mother, her daughter from her first litter ended up being the primary nurturer of the second. Fuzzy fed them butotherwise tried tostay as far away as possible from the works).

angieluv wrote:

it's always something..

Yeah, now my new little guy, Scooter, has to go to the vet, I think he has a cat bite, it's swelling up like crazy. :sigh:

But I do have to say that I could never figure out why guys like George, with all 10 rabbits, hasn't had any sick ones before now. But in reality, he has -- I know he's had infected bites, rabbits with veryrunny noses, huffers and puffers, etc... and he's never treated them. But they've all gotten better.

Just like I always used to wonder why it's my heart bunnies getting sick -- but I think it's just because we notice it more. For all thegas attacks Dill and Sherry have had, the backroom bunnies could have had just as many.I can go up to 24 hours without seeing those guys, the gas probably went away on its own. (Far more uncomfortable for the bunny of course).

I remember Radar suddenly acting very ill when I was feeding him -- hunched in a loaf in the corner, not touching his dinner, etc. I went to take him to the vet, but he perked right up while I was packing him up. He had a celery string caught in his tooth. Had it not happened when I was in there feeding him, never would have noticed.

We're victims of our own attemtivemess. And we're not willing togamble on arabbit healing itself -- or not.

But that's another topic.

sas :expressionless

 

[Maureen Las]

If the SPCA won't put Fuzzy down and would treat her instead (that's hard to believe) let them take her.

i don't know all of the situation but he probably shoudn't have as many as he does.

i used to know astreet woman in Chicago with multiplying ferrets that lived outside a starbucks with her dog. She was a good pet owner in her own way but it got out of hand.

I can't imagine this guy doing sq only because there is much other paraphenalia that you need to do injections. ..syringes and needles (sterile ) ..something to mix the bicillin with like lactated ringers ( I used sterile water for injection ordered on-line). This can only cost a fortune .
You've got too much going on to deal with it all of this and pay for it too.
sadly something has to give somewhere..

 

[Pipp]

I think now that I'm going in there with another rabbit it will be easier to get Fuzzy treated without much comment or explanation, I'll be a paying customer. Good distraction.

We'll see how it goes, off toget Fuzzy and juggle to carriers on the bus.



sas:clover:

 

[Maureen Las]

What's going on with George, Scooter and Fuzzy?
thought we'd know by now.

 

[ra7751]

What a beautiful rabbit. I always treat abscesses with drugs alone. I never intentionally open an abscess. And it might be just a piece of hay or something stuck between her teeth....like a piece of popcorn does to us. But with that face, I would be very concerned about dental issues.

If I have a true abscess, I generally use acombination of Penicillin (Procaine and Benzathine) and Zithromax. It has never failed me and I have used it numerous times. There is another drug that just became available in the US but I understand that it has been available in Canada and Europe for quite some time that might be considered. It's called Convenia. It's a third generation semi-synthetic Cephalosporin. This type of drug is chemically related to Penicillin and works like it. It is safe only as an injectable. The huge advantage of this drug.....it is a time release drug and one injection sub-q is good for two weeks of treatments. This type of drug will allow more aggressive treatments that require injections. If someone can't or won't do an injection, one shot at the clinic by staff takes care of a full round of treatment. Just another option available to us now.

Randy

 

[Maureen Las]

I didn't know that you NEVER open an abscess. But you would remove bad teeth ..right Randy?

.

That's really interesting

At Midwest Exotics in Ill. my friend had surgery done on a bun for a jaw abscess. They absolutely would not use bicillin as she brought it up to them. They wouldn't use anything but I believe baytril. They told her they were going to create this opening in the cheek of the rabbit called a marsupial pouch so it could be cleaned out daily. So the rabbit had surgery

to make a long sad story short the rabbit didn't improve at all and actually suffered a lot before she had her PTS..

they have Convenia here in Wi because I picked up a brochure on it at a vets... of course it's not used on rabbits!

 

[seniorcats]

A word about Convenia - I think it's great stuff. Our vet just used it for our feral cat Neko after her stomatits surgery. It's next to impossible to give her oral meds andI didn't want to because of the surgery and lasering in her mouth.

The Convenia injection for a 6.5 pound cat was $50.00 (US dollars). It's worth it. A 2 week course of oral Clindamycin would have been close to $30 andimpossible to administer to this feral. Here is their web site. I didn't read the pdf file to see about usage in rabbits. http://www.convenia.com/ for US. I don't believe it is officially listed for use in rabbits. But then Metacam for painwasn't either for a long time although many vets used it.

Prescribing info for Canada http://www.drugs.com/vet/convenia-injectable-lyophile-can.html

 

[Pipp]

Thanks so much Randy and Ann, great info.

Will one shot of the bicillin possibly do the trick? I askedthe Vet about bicillin to begin with whenhehad said he was prescribing 'penicillin'. I asked about PenG, too. Basically wanted to know which was the longest acting considering getting Fuzzy back in would be a challenge.He didn't intially recognize the term bicillim, but then said bicillin waslong-acting.

There aretwo other threadsthat coverthetopic of the vet visit, btw:

- the Scooter and Marvin thread in Rescue Stories: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=37976&forum_id=7&jump_to=500624#p500624

-Scooter'sInfirmary thread: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=37976&forum_id=7&jump_to=500624#p500624.

This is info is in the former:

------------

Anyhoo, found George, he didn't like the carrier I brought for Fuzzy much but he let me take her. So me and two bunnies back on the busses. Got to the vet's office 45 minutes late. The main vet didn't bother coming in -- he was going to be there at noon, but decided to take the day off when I phoned to say I'd be late. Got the 'new guy'.

He's going to need some workto get him up to 'rabbit savvy' status, but he took direction well.

Scooter: His ear is pretty thick and hot and he has a slight temperature, but no signs of an abscess although the vet suspects and internal bruise. I don't think he got much of a going over, I shouldn't have told the Vet he was aggressive! He was definitely wary.

But Scoots was a gentleman -- other than almost immediately pooping all over the table, although I'm sure he was just helping with diagnostics. He even jumped on the scale to get himself weighed. Never even started to nip.

He got a shot of antibiotics -- 25 ml of Longisil. Netsite says it's Penicillin G Benzathine and Penicillin G Procaine. (Is thatbicillin?).That should be all he needs.

Happy to report that he's eating hay and he just lunged at me, so he's over the trauma. (And btw, the vetgave him the shot straight, and I know that stuff stings. And I was the one who had to hold him, so I'm surehe thinks it was me abusing him).

Fuzzy's abscess is probably only in her lip, not her tooth, so she got the same shot. The vetDIDcharge for the visit, they would have considered treating her for no charge if it was life-threatening. (At least they gave me 30 days to pay). Same deal with her -- if it's not gone in a week, George will have to get her back there.

-------------------

To add to that, the bill I think was around $80 just for Fuzzy. They asked if they could shave her to make her more comfortable, I said 'Please do!'. Then they only brushed her and charged me for that. :X Sheesh.

They have my credit card on file, so not much of a risk for them to give me 30 days. I'm hoping I can round up some locals who know him to help out with it. Pretty sure I'll get some help there. I put it through the local rescue, SARS (I come in SARS buns all the time, so they assume that's okay), which is a 30% discount. Otherwise would have been higher.

The vet was also concerned about Fuzzy's breathing. Her lungs sounded clear but her breathing was noisy. Could be an upper respiratory infection, but the penicillin will help that too.

George was pretty astute -- he asked about a probiotic when I told him she got the shot -- something I never thought to ask! Not so important for an injection, but can't hurt.

I saw George's set up, it wasn't too bad. He's letting his bunnies out and they're sticking close tohis trolley. I thinkhesaid only one of them runs off. The babies were born in this situation so life is fine to them. Sunshine -- the dutch dad -- is a happyguy, he was out running around when I was there. So really it's only Fuzzy -- and she's in with two of her daughters, her cage is a decent size and he's built a couple ofshelves, so I feel better about them now.



sas :bunnydance:

 

[Pipp]

PS: She weighs less than Scooter. :shock: Even the Vet was surprised, seeing as she looks 'well rounded'. Mind you, Scoots is pretty solid.

Here's a couple of Fuzzy pics:

She is a gorgeous bunny! :inlove:



sas :bunnydance:

 

[Maureen Las]

Very cute bun
if this is truly an abscess and not something else (did the vet say abscess?) then the bicillin (which is what he gave) has to be given every other day for quite awhile.
i don't know anything about the drug Convenia that seniorcats and randy are talking about but i think that you only have to have one injection of it ???

it's expensive but would be so much easier than the bicillin injections ( and yes george is right that she should get probiotics anyway.)

i can't read this whole post now but i will later tonight ..anyway glad that things are being taken care of

 

[JimD]

ray:

...lil' cutie

 

[seniorcats]

I'm glad both were able to be seen. It's reassuring that you have seen Bunny George's set up and it appears to be decent.

Scooter sounds like my kind of bunny. Think of what he and Miss Melody could accomplish together. Perhaps the right friend will mellow him.

There was a lot of info on Convenia available on the web, however, these are sites for vets/vet nurses and require some sort of preapproved access. Most of the info on testing or off-label treating of rabbits appears to be on the restricted sites. The drug just became available for US vets in June.

If I remember tomorrow, I will e-mail Pfizer and ask about usage in rabbits.