Fighting and Re-introducing

[Becky_Muller]

Our bunnies aren’t sick, but I didn’t know where else to post this. I was wondering if you guys could offer up any suggestions or advice we might have. Long story short, here’s the time line:

December 07 – bunnies were born

March 08 – we purchased two brothers

Aril 08 – we noticed General Snarf Lee starting to “scent” and claim items, and start sniffing Moses’ butt, who we recognized as the alfa male. They got into a snarl then so we separated them and a week later they were neutered and put back together again without any problems.

July 08 – General started sniffing Moses’ butt, and soon enough there was a bunny ball rolling around and fur going everywhere.

We separated them again, and the next day bought animal perfume to spray on their butts. I sprayed my finger and dabbed their noses, too. We took them into a room they’ve never been in before and tried to “reintroduce” them. Moses, the alfa, seemed oblivious to General. They sniffed each other a little and did their own things, but soon enough General started sniffing Moses’ butt again. Moses growled so I grabbed General and they’ve been in separate cages since. When we put them down in the spare room it’s not like they immediately went for each other’s throats. I didn’t sense any anger at all until General sniffed Moses’ butt.

I’ve had a few people tell me we should let the rabbits work it out, but how much fighting is too much? I’ve had other people tell me they wouldn’t keep them together. Does anyone have any suggestions of how you can help us reestablish the bunny bond the brothers once had?

My husband and I are devastated. We want them to be together and loved how they used to play together all the time in their cage and when they had free reign of our main floor of the house together. The rabbits themselves seem different, almost depressed and I have a feeling it’s because they’re not together, but we’re afraid of what may happen if we do keep them in the same cage.

We have a vet appointment Wednesday afternoon to have them checked out after the fight last week. There was no growling or screaming, and no one seemed injured afterwards, just really scared. I hope she might have some ideas to help us, too.

Thanks in advance,
Becky

 

[missyscove]

This should probably be in the Nutrition and Behavior section, so perhaps a mod can move it there for you eventually.

Bonding bunnies can be tough. I know a lot of people have trouble with two bunnies that have been together and then hit bunny puberty.

Have they been neutered? If not, I'd say that would help tremendously with the hormones.

Also, I see you're new. Please introduce yourself in the Introductions section.

 

[Pipp]

You have to keep them separatefor now,two un-fixed males can (and will) kill each other. I suggest keeping them in adjoining cages/pens, but with no chance of engagement, even through the bars. And no means of accidental escape.

You can re-bond them when they're neutered, but for now, all the perfumes, etc, in the world won't help.

I'd also HIGHLY recommend going over each boy with a fine-toothed comb (litterally) to check for bites and cuts, they can form abscesses quickly and easily.

If you find any, wash around the edges with peroxide (but not directly in the wound) and dab a lot of betadine on it. (Or a regular triple anti-biotic cream like Neosporin, butnot the pain relief version).

Hope they're okay.



Sas :?

 

[Pandaboy]

Well it was a good idea to get your bunnies neutered, maybe you should wait a while for all there hormones to "wear off" before introducing them again.

Keep them seperated for now, when you think they've calmed down enough you should introduce them in a neutral area, a area that neither of them have been in.
Maybe outside? If its not to hot? Maybe in the evenings you can take them both outside in a pen for about 10-15 minutes or even shorter, gradually increase the time everyday until it because a few hours.

Once they are fine and dandy outside, you should try introduce them inside, but still a neutral area, and repeat the same steps as you did outside.

Now its time for the big step, clean and scrub and disinfect the area that they would be staying if they were still bonded, like a cage or pen they would be staying in. Make sure you use pet safe cleaners.

Rearrange everything in the cage, make sure its very clean, like a bunny never lived in it. (clean litter box, fresh hay, fresh food, clean food bowls, etc....) It might even be a better idea if you move the cage to another room to, if possible. Maybe even buy new toys and things for them to chew on.

Move them to this area after they spend a few hours together with no problems inside. Open the cage or pen door, and let them wonder into it on there own. Watch them very closely, if you think they are ready to stay together by this time, then let them, but if you don't then start introducing them to the cage/pen like you did when they were outdoors/indoors.

If they get into another scuffle during this process, you should keep them seperated to avoid injuries.


Oh and no more animal perfume on bunny butts! That sounds like it would incourage them to sniff eachothers hinds, which seems to be the start of all there fights!

 

[Becky_Muller]

Thanks everyone... I stated in my original post that the rabbits were neutered back in April. And Missy, I already introduced myself earlier today before I started this thread. I followed the advice of a mod to join this forum and post my issue here.

 

[Becky_Muller]

Thanks, Pipp. They are okay - not hurt, no scratches. They've already been checked by a vet and are going back on Wednesday for a second checkup.

Also, Pandaboy, I mentioned in my original thread that we tried reintroducing them in a neutral room.

Let me know if you guys need anymore information that I didn't post in the original comments.

 

[JadeIcing]

Ok lets see neutered since april.

1) How long after the neuter were they put back together?

2)How long in between every seperation and re-introduction?

3) They were together from april till now?

4) Are the cages next to each other?

 

[Pipp]

Missed that in the time-line!

Pandaboy has excellentadvice.

The 'bunny ball' isn'tgreat, it's beyond chasing and pulling, but if they didn't do damage, it's not insurrmountable.

I'd let them have playtime together but with lots of shelves, obstaclesand hidey boxes to distract and protect.

Dill and Sherry would get into it like that with no ill effects. I didn't bother separating them because the fights only started when Sherry was bugging Dill (she wanted to be his gf, but he was a midget in a bunny suit and thought she was just a pesky rabbit and would chase her off). As long as they had enough space to get away from each other, the damage was limited to pulled fur.

On the other hand, they never could reside in a cage together, Dill had a cage-phobia andhe'd take it out on her. (Actually, Dill would take a LOT of stuff out on her -- misplaced aggression --but she'd always just get out of the way andforgivehim).

Darry and Radar stillnip and chase (Darrynips Radar, anyway), but they never did have any bunny ball fights.

I initially tried Radar and Pipp, but Pipp bit Radar, he bit back -- hard -- and she's been afraid of him ever since.

Remember that outside influences can really make a difference. I tried introducing Pipp and Dill but made the mistake of holding Dill while my roommate held Pipp, but that made her incredibly jealous and she tried to rip his throat out. I never could pet a cat around Dill or Pipp, they'd bite thecat everytime. What I find works well if they're the jealous types is the two-headed rabbit pet --stroking two heads at once.

I find that even new people much less new pets around set off territory wars.

Not too helpful, I know.

Flashy wrote a great paper on bonding, she covered an amazing amount of ground very well. Unfortunately our search engine is busted and Flashy isn't around at the moment, but I'll keep trying to find it.

Good luck and sorry for the confusion, things are a bit crazy around here!



sas

 

[seniorcats]

Hi Becky,

Welcome to the forum. I am also in Ohio (Medina County). My favorite bunny bonding is the car ride. Here is an article that explains bunny bonding through car rides.

http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/introductions.html#first

I generally put the bunnies to bebonded in a laundry basket, wear sturdy gardening gloves and let someone else drive. We usually do multiple rides of about 15-20 minutes each over a week or 2. I did have one pair of bunnies bond after a 2 hour car ride together in a cardboard box. I like the plastic laundry basket best as it's slippery and they will huddle together.

Here is another article on the car ride bonding method

http://www.geocities.com/aecarrotpatch/bonding.html

And another with some really good hints. Mending a broken bond http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-4/marriage.html

 

[missyscove]

I'm sorry I missed that. I even looked specifically to see if you'd mentioned it. I guess I'm getting old .

It sounds like you've got some great advice.

One thing I'd like to add to what Pipp said though about the hidey boxes is make sure that they're either only big enough for one bunny or easy for you to get into. Your worst nightmare is trying to separate fighting bunnies inside a cage or something similar that you don't have easy access to.

 

[Becky_Muller]

JadeIcing wrote:

Ok lets see neutered since april.

1) How long after the neuter were they put back together?

2)How long in between every seperation and re-introduction?

3) They were together from april till now?

4) Are the cages next to each other?

1. They were put back together as soon as we brought them home from the vet. We cleaned and sterilized their cage, bought them a new wooden box/house and all new chews and toys.

2. They've been together ever since we brought them back from the vet's in April, until they had their recent fight which was last Friday, June 11th. They've been separated in cages now, but are right next to each other on the floor.

3. Yes.

4. Yes.

 

[Becky_Muller]

That's actually quite helpful, Pipp. I thought about what you said but none of it falls into our scenario, like new pets or people in the mix. I'm so baffled at what would have made them change so quickly.

You mentioned the bunny ball is actually worse than them "tussling"? We've had so many people tell us to let them fight it out, but I'm so afraid of them hurting each other. How much is too much? How do you know when it's passed the "I'm the alfa bunny" stage and they just fight? How long do you let them fight it out? It's hard to sit back and watch.

Last night we tried again in another room. I had General, my husband had Moses and we set them down at the same time. For about 30 seconds all was fine. Moses and General sniffed, then when Moses turned around General jumped on him and it started all up again.

This is really bothering my husband and me. We treat our animals like children, like they should be, and we're actually losing sleep and appetites over our bunny problem. The rabbits themselves sit there and look at each other through the cages, but they're not as active as they used to be. It's almost like they're going through bunny depression but when we try to get them together, General being the aggressor attacks Moses.

The next vet appointment is Wednesday. We're having her clip all their nails and we'll go from there.

Senior, that information is fantastic, thank you! I'm going to read the articles and email them to my husband once I get some work done this morning. That's a great idea, and something I wondered about with their carrier to try, but with the way General seems to be on Moses lately I wasn't sure if we should risk it. I'll read the articles and take some advice from them to try.

I appreciate all your time and help, everyone. I can't tell you how much my husband and I are grateful for your help. Every time I check the boards and someone posts something new I always share it with him. We're on a mission to re-bond the buns!

 

[seniorcats]

When your vet clips their nails, ask her if she can show you how. There are some good clippers in the dog and cat section of the pet supplies. You should be able to save yourself some time and money doing it at home. I find mine need the front clipped more often than the back.

About the car rides - a carrier is fine. I just have large rabbits and medium size cat carriers. A large laundry basket worked better for me. I did put some hay in there with them. If you are unsure about nipping, a good pair of gardening gloves can help when handling them. I tend to have a hand on each and 'smush' them together. Usually in the car, they will naturally try and huddle together.

When we get home from the ride, I put them neutral territory for about 10 minutes and then move them to their shared area. It usually takes 3-4 short car rides or sometime one longer ride.

 

[Becky_Muller]

Thanks, Senior. When we took them to the vet to get neutered she showes us how to clip them. We bought good smaller clippers and tried ourselves at home a few times but we were so afraid of hurting them.

Your ideas about the car rides are great. We're going to get to that tonight and hope for the best. Maybe in a couple of weeks I'll have a good report to share.

Becky

 

[Bunnicula]

I don't want to discourage you, but I think you need to be prepared to face the fact that you may not be able to have your two boys together. I've experienced a somewhat similar situation...and have had to realize that (like people) there are rabbits who just won't get along or who prefer life as a lone-rabbit.

I'll share my saga...which will be a bit long...sorry...

We got our first rabbit, Gingivere, as an infant. She was a single rabbit (living with 10 cats) who chased the cats as if she wanted a friend. So when she was about a year old, we brought home baby Stewart. Bonding them was amazingly easy. A few weeks after his neuter, they were introduced. There was mutual humping, but no real aggression.

About 1 1/2 years later, we brought home bunny #3, Emmaline. (Note: We were not using a bunny-savvy vet at the time...so though Stew was neutered...the girls were not spayed.) Gingi & Stew were sharing a home...Emm had her own. The duo would check her out through the bars, so we proceeded to the next step. A little tussling, but basically they became a bonded trio with no hint of aggression. Stew was a very docile (and sick) little guy...so he kind of became the "glue" of the threesome.

A few months later Stewart died. In his last hours we were finally referred to a bunny-savvy vet. I interviewed him, and realized the girls needed spaying...which was planned for a future date. While waiting for the surgery date to come, the girls began to be a bit more feisty with one another. I chalked it up to hormones, and was certain that it'd be resolved after spays. Also, Gingi mourned Stewart incredibly.

Spay day came and went well. Their cages were next to one another. All seemed well. I began to allow them out to run together. No problems. Till a few days later they buzzed down the hallway, Gingi grabbed Emmy by the inside of a rear leg and would not let go. The injury was appalling. She had stitches that night at the emerg clinic.

So...I chalked that up to hormones still active. Waited a few more weeks. Did gradual rebonding intros. All seemed well. Began to allow the girls more play time and even had them housed together again. They were out playing one day and all snuggly. Seemed fine. Went to put them in their house, and found fur in one of the bedrooms. No big deal...until I found the piece with flesh attached. Gingi had bitten again, only this time damaging Emm's vulva. Obviously, they were not allowed together again.

Emmaline was very depressed, so within a few months I brought another little guy, Pipkin, home. Day 1 - Gingi bit him on the lip to the tune of 3 stitches (long story, totally my fault). Anyway, Pip & Emm became instant loves. After his neuter healed they were together...and have been inseparable since.

Then Gingi began to lay up against them through the NIC condo bars. They would groom her and she them. I tried a 3-way bonding session ona few occasions, but the girls always resorted to a dominance test...and by this time (3 vet trips for fight injuries) I was not about to let it go beyond the first display of annoyance. Still, Gingi seemed so desperate for a pal.

So...eventually we brought in Capt Snow last fall. He & Gingi live in adjoining cages and will lay against one another through the bars. They seem to do okay if I take them on bonding sessions on the slippery floor of the bathroom. But being loose together in familiar territory and being housed together DOES NOT WORK.

Now, granted, the bites she's given to others makes me very nervous and leary to allow ANY display of fighting. But I must say that I have become pretty convinced that Gingi prefers to be a lone rabbit and only wants to tolerate the affection of others when it cannot lead to a dominance battle.

Like you, I desperately want her to have a friend. She and Stew were inseperable. He was totally hen-pecked and let her be the queen. I want that for her again. But those are MY feelings, not hers. And I have to be realistic and not put my human emotions on her. It's not easy. Some days I want to let them "hash it out" like people have told you. But at the same time I've done those late night runs to the ER vet. I've seen the torn flesh. Not something I want to put any bun through again.

Sorry my story took forever. I just thought it might help for you to hear that not all bonding situations turn out the way we want. Perhaps my Gingi is happier than I give her credit for. And maybe it is that way with your boys, too.

~Mary Ellen

 

[seniorcats]

That's good info Mary Ellen. You never know with bunnies. I really think bonding 2 females is the hardest of all bonds.

Dr. Melody Frankenbunny (spayed)was rehomed to me because she was purely evil with the neutered male in the house. After many attempts at bonding, Melody was still acting mean to her intended friend. Another bunny was brought in the house and Melody decided to declare war.

Mel moved here with us and we had a 15 year old bunny who shortly passed away. I got an unwanted mini-rex from a coworker and had him neutered. He had a pen set up in Mel's room. Mel was twice his size and if she could have gotten to him the first night, she would have torn him up. She was more than twice hs size. I intended to try bonding about 2 and 1/2 weeks after Wilbur's neuter.

Then about a week after the surgery, my DH called me on the phone. Somehow Melody and Wilbur had twisted and damaged two very sturdy bolts on the pen, enough for Wil to get out. I thought I would come home to a dead Wilbur. Instead, the two crazy rabbits bonded themselves with no help from me.

I guess I would say in the world of bunny boding, you just never know until you try - sometimes many times.I think Mary Ellen story is more common than the Wilbur//Melody story

 

[JadeIcing]

Bonding is a guessing game and you have no say in it. Trust me! After a year had to take my female out because she didnt want to be witht them anymore. Now she is alone and happier!

 

[Becky_Muller]

Hi Bunnicula (great name, by the way!).

Your story was more than helpful to me and you are right in that we should do what's best for the bunnies, not the humans! I can't not try to see if they'll rebond first, hopefully without the severe wounds you dealt with when you tried to rebond yours. I won't know if I don't try, but after a week if I see no positive change, then the boys were not meant to be friends in their adult lives. I'm still trying to be optimistic at this point and hope for the best,but we certainly won't push the laws of bunnynature.

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions. You've all been so extremely helpful and we're greatful that you took the time to share your knowlege with us! I'll keep you posted on the bonding, or non-bonding, process.

 

[Bunnicula]

Becky,

I'm glad my story helped, and also glad that you are not giving up. Truthfully, I have not given up on Gingivere either. With every passing day she grows more compliant...and Capt Snow continues to mature and settle. So I am by no means ruling out the possibility that they have a future together. We continue with occasional bathroom bonding sessions (though during the last one they just sat in opposite corners and huddled to themselves - lol).

My policy when it comes to trying Gingi with another bun...ONLY DURING VET OFFICE HOURS. Seriously. Trips to the emerg vet are expensive, stressful, and they can't guarantee me a bunny-savvy vet. This way, if someone does get injured I can get him/her to the vet ASAP.

When bonding buns you hope for the best, and stay prepared for whatever you get.

~Mary Ellen

 

[Leaf]

I originally posted this in a different thread but maybe it'll be of some help so I'll paste it here:



I have 5 rabbits - two bonded pairs.

My Hotot Ansel has been a trial since the day I brought her home. She was born on 5/6/05 but I just got her last year. Before I got her she lived in a breeders shed that was full or rabbits. Many breeders are great but this person really neglected several situations. It wasn't until they had a fire that they had to get rid of many of their rabbits because of a severe lack of space.

If I remember correctly, I took in 5 or 6 bunnies that day and all but the *mean* one found homes with friends.

In the beginning - some days, oh how I wished someone else would have chosen to take Ansel (as I named her) so I could have had a nicer,calmer bunny.

Ansel's toenails were my top priority. They were so long and twisted I was in shock and attributed some of her behavior to discomfort and probably a lack of handeling because who in their right mind would let the nails get so bad if they truely cared for the rabbit and saw the length on a daily basis?

Once she had her nails done she went in for a vet exam and an appointment was made for her spay.

I really thought that in time she would stop growling, thumping and lunging at me but some of that was s.l.o.w. in coming and some has never been resolved.

Now, I also have a female dutch that has been spayed. She's a bit older than Ansel, and I call her Ibimi. Ibimi was severely obese when I brought her home last year as well.

Because of Ibimi's obesity she had severe joint problems, breathing difficulties and almost a complete inability to groom herself. She was one for the vet to see often in the beginning and due to Ansel's spay and Ibimi's co-inciding vet trips the rabbits got to see each other be handled and rode in tha car together a lot.

Ibimi continued her vet trips of evaluations and Ansel has several trips to work on her teeth, an abscess on her jaw... Heck, before long it dawned on me that Ansel was under constant care and Ibimi was also under watchfulness -maybe I should put them together.

OOPS! In the beginning fur FLEW!

So I backed up, housed them in the same room - worked on intros. Since Ibimi was on a diet and strict excersize "program" - and since Ansel was a pain in the butt but needed human interaction - I started scheduling thir feeding at the same time, letting them out of their cages at the same time....

(both always has hay at all times, and water, but pellets and veggies were scheduled feedings)

Ansel, over time, calmed SOME and stopped attacking my hands, feet and arms. Not completely, but the severity lessened. Ibimi in the meantime was intrigued by Ansel and was motivated to be more active by leaving her cage (surrounded bya dog x-pen) to go to Ansel's area and check her out.

I made a point to schedule vet appointements for them together. When Ibimi went in for a weight check, Ansel went in for additional nail care and to have her broken toe looked at.

Over time they became buddies and as more time passed they did bond.

The "happy story" still isn't complete yet.

The two seemed to balance each other out. Ansel became more calm, Ibimi more apt to explore. The drawback is that for a while Ibimi picked up some of Ansel's nastiness, but because she is more calm by nature some of it went away.

When Ibimi got down to a better weight she was spayed and all hell broke loose between the two once I put them back together. I'm not sure what it was...

(now keep in mind, I had been housing two does, one fixed - together - perhaps not totally recommended. From what I've read, if I recall correctly, that could lead to fights that could be serious with injuries involved but that was BEFORE the trouble began)

I had to COMPLETELY rework their bond. Much time, much effort, much bleeding (on my part - Thanks Ansel!!).

For the life of me I couldn't correct it. Ansel "owned" the huge cage they shared - Ibimi (once spayed) was an intruder. It hadn't been that way before.

Now here's what may help you if you haven't fallen asleep in this monster post yet.

I was absolutely at the end of my rope but I was NOT going to let two (or even one) bunnies get the best of me.

I worked on caged designs.

When housed as singles Ansel has a medium dog taxi with a dog excersize pen around it. Ibimi had her standard pet store cage (purple bottom with white wire) with a dog excersize pen around it.

As a bonded pair before they "broke" I put two smaller pet taxi's side by side with an excersize pen around them both. The purple cage of Ibimi's was on top of them both with pet steps to the side so they had access to it, and a wooden ramp to the floor at the back of it so they could go up/down at will, both at the same time.

They often slept together on the floor or in the purple cage but if they wanted their own space they had the pet taxis and ironically enough, they chose who "owned" what (mainly after Ibimi ran Ansel out of the one she preferred!).

As two "broken" bunnies I worked and worked on designs (keeping in mind I didnt want to spend an arm and a leg on stuff) and of course, worked with them both individually back in their old setups - just as they were in the beginning.

I found that instead of having a wide round setup for them (as I had when they were together) what works well now is a more narrow setup, but one with more levels. (I SUCK at making NIC's.) I have a dog crate design - stacked - 2 lab sized blue pet taxi's on the bottom, two smaller on top. Not side-by-side but spaced out with wood between making "shelves" they can climb on, rest on, groom on etc... The front is once again surrounded by a dog excersize pen that can be modified in size and shape.

I think once they found a design that allowed them both the space (and height, perhaps?) that allowed them room to be alone or together as they wished they became more comfortable with each other and more tolerant. More tolerant, more calm - more apt (on Ansel's part) to allow me to mess with her (though surely not to love on her too much?).

Ansel will always be her own little critter but it amazes me how Ibimi helps balance her out, and how the two love each other - and how a "simple" cage design worked to alleviate fighting that came between them.