Excessive chewing due to an illness (Randy???)

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Amy27

Amy27

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I wasn't sure if I should post this here or in behavior but I am really hoping to get some opinions from the medicalside of things.

Chase has become completely distructive. She has done more damage to my house in 3 months then she has in the 4-5 years I have had her. It seems compulsive. Literally, I will chase her away and 2 seconds later she is eating the carpet again. She has eaten every corner of the walls in the house. Tons of holes in the carpet. She has eaten holes in the middle of the walls and I am talking holes into the dry wall where the white dust is coming out. I have had to tape cardboard up over the walls in her room. This is not my rabbit. I swear it has something to do with her calcium or something she is missing. The vet has done tests and assured me, several times,that it isn't at all related. But as she gets worse and worse. I just believe it is related to something medically. This is not a type of destruction I have ever experiencedwith either rabbit before.Has anyone ever heard of a rabbit doing this due to a medical issue? If so what was it? Could it be something she is lacking in her system that she is trying to get from eating things?

This just seems so extreme. I have tried everything over the last 3 months and nothing has worked. She is just crazy over chewing certain things. It is almost like she can't help it. She knows she isn't allowed because if I say her name she runs. But 2 seconds later she is back to eating it. I can't leave her alone for 5 minutes. I use to be able to leave her a lone all day.

If anyone has any ideas to medically what this could be. Or if I am making excuses for my bad bunny please tell me. I want to know so that when I go back to the vet in a few weeks I can ask for certain tests to be run. I just really feel, in my gut, there is something else going on and I can't get the vet to see it. Maybe it is because her blood work has come back normal and her x-rays are okay. Not enough calcium to cause pain. I thought maybe pain was causing the chewing.

If this thread is more appropriate in the behavior section, please feel free to move it.

Thanks Amy

ETA: Chase is spayed.

 
I started to look into this Amy asI think that you are correct that thismay either be an attempt to get a missing nutrient , or possibly a sign of discomfort.
This following article goes on farther than you need to read but explains more about rabbits and pain.
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-10/pain.html
or...
Is it possible that he feels better than he ever felt and that this is normal rabbit behavior whereas his previous behavior was of a rabbit that didn't feel well???


Could you post any meds he is getting now( is he getting lasix? ) and / or what you are feeding him right now.


 
I never thought of that angieluv. Maybe she is just feeling better. But for the first 3-4 years I had her she was healthy and never chewed like this. Right now she is in her area, suppose to be eating her veggies and she is chewing on some cardboard ring thing. She seriously cannot stop chewing. She will even pick stuff up and run from me, with it hanging out of her mouth, so she can try to chew it before I get to her.

The only med Chase is on right now is Lasix 12.5mg 2 times a day. She has been on that since about March I believe. She gets blood work done every 1-2 months and bladder x-rays every 1-2 months.

She gets unlimited hay and a dinner plate of veggies soaked for over an hour, at night and in the morning. She does not get any pellets and has not gotten pellets in atleast over 3 years, maybe 4.

Thanks angieluv for posting. I am off to read that link now.
 
I just posted this issue on etherbun. I also believe that lasix could flush electrolytes and other minerals from her body (sorryI said he instead of she) in the last post.

I don't think electrolytes (labs) are commonly run on rabbits but this is causing me to think that it could be the effect of lasix over time. Lasix is a powerful diuretic

http://www.drugs.com/pro/Lasix.html

I wish I could get Randy to look at this soI think i'll change the title a little
 
and now I have learned that Lasix is used in horse racing supposedly to prevent the horse from bleeding out..
however some folks believe that the physiological effects of the drugs on the muscles and blood levels stimulate the horse , thus improving performance.
Maybe the lasix is acting as a stimulant on Chase??

just waiting for Randy .........:hanging:
 
I have heard of bunnies eating strange things when they're going into stasis, but it could be like the human illness where you eat strange things because of missing nutrients--that thing that causes pregnant women and children to eat dirt. It is possible that she is trying to get some minerals that are being excreted in her urine due to the lasix.
 
Well.....my ideas might be a bit controversial and is based on my experiences both with domestic rabbits and wildlife. First, Lasix works a little different in rabbits than most other species. Most of the top end vets don't use Lasix in rabbits. I have something around here somewhere on the issues.....but so far I haven't been able to find it (might have been saved in documents on a previous computer) and I don't remember exactly what the article said. I have used Lasix in rabbits with questionable results but it was usually in a "Hail Mary" response to LRIs or CHF.

There are a couple of neurological issues that can cause some odd problems. There is a trace mineral called Selenium. It is one of the little out of the wayelements that are necessary in small amounts for healthy functions but toxic in large amounts. I did some research at one time....thru various lab articles.....regarding rabbits that would barber themselves and then eat their own fur. There was some mention about eating fur, carpet or other odd materials (and somehumans have this affliction...forgot what it's called and I understand that dogs have been know to have something similar). And calcium deficiencies can cause all sorts of issues....and we see that often in wildlife. And since I think this rabbit has had some possible calcium issues....it deserves to at least be considered.

If I were treating this rabbit....and this is kind of out there as only I can do.....I would drop the Lasix. I would supplement hydration with an isotonic or hypotonic fluids. I would most likely add something like cranberry extract to assist the renal system. I would closely review my feeding protocols paying close attention to the supplements in the pellets. You might be amazed at what "premium" pellets contain or don't contain. Of course, lots of hay and fresh water. And in departure from what is normally done.....I would add a bit of Vitamin D to the diet and give exposure to unfiltered sunlight. I have learned so much about the importance of Vitamin D and Phosphorus in managing the absorbing or calcium and other nutrients.

This sounds like a nutrient issue. And it will probably be one of those things that you have to make some changes over time and monitor any change....good or bad....and make more changes. And I would certainly discuss with your vet the possiblity of some sort of deficiencies in nutrition.....and consider the possibility of MBD. And keep in mind that the environment we keep our rabbits in is not a natural thing and that has to be considered.

This one will be interesting to follow I'm sure....and I bet in the end we all will learn from it.

Randy
 
angieluv, Thanks for changing the title! I call Chase he a lot so don't worry about that. Sometimes I even call her buddy. Thanks for posting this on etherbun too.

Chase gets electrolyte lab work done every two months. We just started to do it every 2 months. When she first started Lasix it was every month. They have came back normal the last few times she has had it done. Probably 4 months ago her potassium was a little low and I upped her banana intake and the next test was normal. This is the reason the vet doesn't think it is something she is missing from her diet.

That is really interesting that Lasix stimulates horses. I wonder if that is related to what Chase is doing. Maybe that is why it seems compulsive.

Randy, Lasix was the only thing the vet tried that stopped Chase's bladder stones. She had 2 stones in 3 months. We were doing sub q's everyday with no improvement. Chase doesn't drink water at all. I have tried all types of flavoring, different bowls, bottles and cat water fountains. She just won't drink. I don't know what her deal is. My vet has never used Lasix except on CHF rabbits. She stated she didn't know the long term effects of Lasix because CHF rabbits never live that long to really see. After the vet had tried so many different options she couldn't think of anything else. We knew that giving Chase mroe fluids via sub q still wasn't flushing out her bladder. So she was trying to think of ways to make her urinate more and flush the bladder and that is when we tried Lasix. The Lasix has really been life saving for Chase.

I plan to ask the vet about starting Chase on pellets. I think that may help her get whatever she is missing. I am also going to ask about a vitamin d supplement. I have read the vitamin D thread and I really think it is something that may benefit Chase. I don't know if I can give her unfiltered sunlight. I am afraid to take her outside because she is spastic when she is picked up. I live in a condo and my neighbor has a big dog and I just don't feel comfortable handling her outside and keeping her safe. I am really going to try and push the vet to investigate more on what she maybe missing. Maybe she can do a more extensive electrolyte test. I am going to go research Selenium and see what I can find on it.

Thanks for the replies!!
 
If I remember right, isn't your bunnies free roam in the basement? Can you block off a large area and put a hanging light from the ceiling? So they can get the light. It would be worth it to see if it helps. Just a suggestion. :)
 
She is in the basement in the laundry room area and then I use to let her out through the whole house when my other rabbit wasn't out. Doesn't the light have to be 12-15 inches from the rabbit? How do you keep them from standing up and burning themselves.

I really feel bad for Chase. Here I am constantly calling her name to stop eating something, chasing her or taking something away from her. I have given her less space in the house. Poor bunny is probably just trying to get what she needs.

Randy, What pellets would you recommend in this situation? It has been so long that I have purchased pellets I am lost at what is the best kind and if there maybe a better kind for my situation.
 
I wish they made vitamin pills for rabbits. That way we could be sure they got all the vitamins they need, regardless of if they share pellets with a pellet hog (like Muffin--Tony eats most of the pellets because she doesn't like them as much), if they can't go outside, if their owner can't find a large variety of hay (my store stopped selling oat!). *end rant*
 
That's what my vet said. He said like 12 inches but I told him my NIC cage panels were like 14 inches, for the light to sit on. He said that was fine.



If you havethe light onthe floor. Put some NIC panels around it or something so the light goes thru it but the bunnies can't touch it. If the light is hanging I don't think the bunnies would try to touch it. You'd probably have to experiment.

I read your threads and I hope your bunny gets better and you can figure out whats going on. :pray:prayersfor you and Chase!


 
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html

I just found this site on the House Rabbit Society. It states that a medium sized rabbit needs 510 milligrams of calcium daily. It then lists about how much calcium is in different veggis, alfalfa hay, and most pellets. Just read on the carrotcafe site below, that when they measure calcium in veggies, they do it by dry weight so I guess this site might be useless. But thought I would leave it in my post incase anyone knows how to convert dry weight to wet weight.

With metabolic bone disease, can you detect that via an x-ray and looking at the bones? I would think since Chase has had so many x-rays that if that was a way to detect MBD, the vet would have caught that. It is also now on my list of this to ask about.

Vitamin D helps MBD and helps with calcium absorption or does it just help with MBD which then helps with calcium absorption?

I also read on this site http://carrotcafe.com/n/calcium.html Parathyroid hormone, calcitonin and estrogen play a roll in maintaining a consistent level of calcium in the blood. That site also states that potassium, magnesium, phosphrate, and sodium play a role in sludge formation. This site has a lot of great information, but most of it is over my head. I am not really sure what any of it means.
 
Claire, trust me I feel your rant and go right along with you lol. It is hard for me to understand why these issues are so hard to find answers to. Why is there a lack or research? Is it because not enough people own rabbits so there has never been a big need before. I wish I knew of a way to help research so that we could have more answers to our questions and options for our problems.

April, I never thought of putting one on the floor and putting nic cubs around it. That would be so much easier for me and I would feel safer knowing Chase couldn't get to it. I could probably even put it on cement in her area by cuting up the carpet. Then I wouldn't have to worry about the carpet getting hot and catching on fire. Good idea Thanks. And thank you for your prayers. They mean a lot.

OMG what do I do with this rabbit until I figure out the problem. Seriously, at least every minute I have to stop her from eating something. She has been out for 2 hours and I am sitting in tears trying not to lose my patience. I am trying so hard to be patient with her because I don't feel like this is her fault. I ran upstairs to get clothes out for work tomorrow. I was gone for like 3 minutes tops. I have 3 new holes in the carpet now. One is pretty big. I have some premium nature's promise pellets from when Little Bunny went through GI stasis. I am about to give her like 10 pieces to see if it helps. Do you think it would hurt at all to give her that small amount? Gosh I feel like I am failing this poor rabbit.
 
You have not failed your bunny. You've done everything possible. To the point your options are limited. You are a GREAT mom to your bunny. :) Don't ever feel you failed, cause you haven't. :hug:
 
I've been following this thread with great interest. Amy, it sounds like Chase shares some issues with Nick. Not exactly the same, but similar.

I'd had Nick and Amelia for.....2.5 years by then, and Amelia was always the problem bun, she chewed on anything and everything, but Nick was always so well-behaved. He could have been free-range with no problems, if it weren't for Amelia.
However, after this last time he had stasis, Nick started chewing on (and eating) everything he could reach. It was so bad that I could only let them out for a few minutes each day, then Nick would start eating carpet, or linoleum, or the coffee table, or the caulking stuff on the fireplace, or..... He went at it with such vigor, too. It was so unusual for him. Like Chase, it seemed like he couldn't help himself, and was doing it compulsively.

It's been a few months, and he is mostly better. There's still things he wouldn't have done before, though. There's a spot where he bites at the hardwood floor, repeatedly, which seems bizarre to me. He also recently ate a piece of silicone off my Wii Fit board, and ran away from me, chewing it like gum, knowing he was not supposed to be doing that.

There are some differences between Nick and Chase. Nick is not currently on any medication. Nick does drink water, and he eats pellets. I currently feed American Pet Diner "Timmy Pellets." Soon after the stasis event (after he was eating again normally) I switched from Oxbow BBT.

I also don't let my bunnies go outside. My neighbor has two large dogs. Even though there is a fence along the property line, it's not super-high and their yard is higher than mine. While the dogs haven't come into my yard yet, I think they could easily go over the fence if they really wanted to. I'm also super paranoid about outside parasites/pests and such.

I do feed a little less variety in salad veggies than I would like, as Nick's digestive system is very sensitive to changes. I also tend not to feel a lot of cabbage-y veg, as they cause excess cecals for him. (Sweet treats are also very limited.)


Sorry to threadjack, Amy, but I think the behavior similarities are interesting. If this is nutrient-related, I would also like to know how I could adjust Nick's diet to correct it.
 
I just got home....

I will post more later but I do believe that if you looked at different pellets and ingredients that you could find one that meets Chases needs. I have always heard that a small amount of pellet is necessary to provide trace nutrients . Randy doesn't feed pellets at his rescue but he does feed a large variety of different hays and probably gives thiamine injections and other supplements that we don't have access to.
We can wait for Randy to make a suggestion but i was thinking that a lot of people like Sweet Meadows timothy pellets and also there is an new pellet out by oxbow that is called organic rabbit ; I will post some of the ingredients later as I have a bag here. it has a lot of natural supplementation in it and may be a healthy pellet for him ..
I don' think that it will hurt him at all to have a few pellets.
if you looked at a human vitamin it would contain selenium in small amounts ..very necessary I believe for many body functions but too much is bad.
Anyway it would make a lot of sense that Chase is missing something in his diet . hopefully we all can help you find out what it is...
 
Thank you April. I raelly appreciate your kind words.

Beth, I am glad you posted your experience. I am happy to know Nick settled down after sometime. It is also nice to know my bun isn't the only one who has acted like this. Do you have any ideas of why Nick did it?

Thanks Angieluv for posting the information about pellets.

I am going to take Chase to the vet tomorrow. I came home today and she didn't eat as much as she normally does and she won't take her meds which never happens. I printed off the information about the Oxbow Organic and I am going to take it with me to her appointment tomorrow. I will see what the vet thinks about adding a little of those pellets to her diet.
 
I thought, though, that the organic pellet was meant to be a sole diet, meaning that you fed only the pellet, no veggies, no hay. It doesn't have a ton of fiber, so I'm not sure why I'm thinking that. I figured the fact that its meant to be a sole diet was the reason I haven't heard of anybody on the forum using it. ??
 
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