Emmett is losing weight (resolved)

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Ainsleysmom

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Emmett is losing weight and I don't know why. It's nothing scary, yet, but what could be causing it? I give him 1/2 cup pellets and unlimited timothy hay daily and fresh fruits and veggies 2-3 times a week usually. Should I up the amount of pellets I give? He weighs about 4 lbs. Could it be that I have him in a cage next to a spayed female and he's not neutered and that's depressing him? He is eating though... every bit of what I give him.
 
Oh...sorry!

He is an approximately 2-3 year old mini lop. He is an unneutered male, though I plan to change that ASAP. He is using the potty normally. Is that all I should answer?
 
Here's a picture I took two or three days ago.
20100327_15.jpg


Here's one from January when we got him
20100114_3.jpg
 
Any diet changes?

You haven't had him that long, have you?

Do you know his age for sure?

A lot of the questions on the form are relevant, I just rewrote them, so of course alway happy to see people answering as much as possible. ;)

Without a lot more research, off hand what comes to mind is just that you have him on a healthier diet than he was on before, and/or he's getting more exercise.

But as bunnies age they are also prone to dental issues and other things. You have to watch for even subtle changes the way they chew their food, slightly damp chins, etc.

Or there can be environment issues.

Its very unlikely to be related, but seeing as I remember you did lose Ainsley not that long ago, best to look at everything.

So if you can give as much detail as possible, including his exact diet and any changes past or present, that may help.


sas :thanks:
 
No, I've had him on Oxbow and Timothy hay since I got him. I did give him fresh grass the other day, but it was after I noticed the weight loss. I'm positive the grass hasn't been treated. I've only had him since January. I'm not positive on his age, the pet store just said 2-3 years. He went from a 24 inch dog crate to a 2 x 2 foot playpen. I checked his teeth. The vet believes Ainsley died from her breathing issues. Maybe a heart defect. Nothing has changed in the past month and a half.
 
Can I be a pain and ask you to reduce the size of your photos? LOL! Photobucket will give you that option, I don't even think you have to change the link, although not sure about that.

And more (smaller) photos with multiple views will probably help, as well as a better description as to what he feels like, based on the articles I'm including below.

If you got him in January and switched him to a healthier diet at that time, and gave him more space, that would account for a slow weight loss. Hay and Oxbow (Bunny Basics T I presume) is a a great low-cal diet, it will probably mean a healthy weight loss.

If it seems sudden or he seems really bony, best to take a closer look.

Rabbits aren't supposed to be too fat, they're designed to be light and slim so they can dash away from predators, and zig and zag through small places.

Most of the rabbits on this board are technically overweight -- including mine. :rollseyes

The pet store was probably feeding them cheap and fattening food and he wasn't getting much exercise. Any idea how long he was there for? (Also its a long shot, but it would be great if the store would contact his previous owner and have them contact you and give you more history).

Sometimes pet stores and people surrendering pets will say they're younger than they are, and older rabbits do lose weight as they age.

So that has to be a consideration as does ailments like parasites, kidney issues, cancer and a bunch of other things.

Oxbow makes two kinds of pellets, one is for active rabbits prone to weight gain -- Oxbow Bunny Basics T (for timothy) which is designed for weight loss and maintenance for active rabbits, and Bunny Basics 15/23, a higher protein alfalfa formula better suited for growing rabbits and for older or thin ones (for whatever reason) requiring more protein and calories.

Figuring out whether its a healthy and natural or unhealthy and unnatural weight loss is the tricky part.

Here's an article from Pam Nock about overweight rabbits:

http://nockrabbits.com/RabbitWeight.pdf

And here's one from DevilishBlueyes, although be forewarned, his interest is in farm rabbits and not pets.

http://sites.google.com/site/rabbitknowledgeforum/is-my-rabbit-fat


sas :goodluck:
 
I wasn't aware that those pictures were considered "big". What size is more appropriate?

He is on Bunny Basics T. Should I put him on 15/23? Or maybe mix the 15/23 with the BB T? He is prone to calcium deposits in his urine. They were feeding him some scary food with seeds and other things in it at the petstore. It took him 3-4 weeks to flush the calcium out through his urine. I thought he never would get it all out. Maybe I can try 1 part 15/23 2 parts BB T?

They told me he was at the Petstore for a couple weeks. His owner was deployed in the Army, that's why he was left there. They had him in a decent size cage there (probably about 2 x 2 feet like what he's in now), but he was depressed and they said he rarely moved. His face was soaked when I picked him up because he had been crying. It was sooo sad. I realize his age is in question. The guy who gave him up didn't even know his gender.

Is it safe to neuter him if he is older? I know with my dogs, they've gotten fatter after neutering. Is it the same with rabbits?

As far as exercise, he runs in circles in his cage, he runs in circles in the animal room, he runs in circles around the dining room table- this is a very active bunny. It's a joy to see his untethered happiness when he runs and kicks back his feet and zigzags. No matter what kind of day I'm having at work or wherever, I come home to that and it's all forgotten. Each of my rabbits brings something different to the table, but they ALWAYS put a smile on my face.
 
Aw, thats so sweet -- making an unhappy bunny happy is my favorite thing in the whole world. Its a joy to see!

But the wet face is concerning. This is why we ask people to fill out the form I linked you to. It asks about that.

Rabbits don't cry (unless they have an eye issue and/or a dental issue). A wet muzzle is a sign of a tooth root or molar spur problem. So is weight loss. Unless the store was exceptionally hot and he was suffering from heat stroke, not much else would cause a wet muzzle, especially combined with weight loss. And he's at the age where you have to watch for that sort of thing.

Is he eating a good amount of hay? Is there anything he picks up and then drops?

I think he's going to need a Vet exam from a very rabbit savvy vet who knows that it might take an x-ray to see the problem. It may just be a molar spur issue but it can be elongated tooth roots that can develop into an abscess.

Having said that, if his muzzle was wet when you got him and it's not so bad now, it could be that your great care and better diet has helped file his teeth down naturally -- eating hay and a variety of veggies always helps -- but that would be the exception, not the rule. Especially if he's still losing weight.

You can check out our Library thread for more info, here:

Teeth
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11901&forum_id=10

I'll also post another article in this thread that I haven't posted in the Library yet that you should give to your Vet, because not too many Vets are well-versed in rabbit dentistry. (Even if they say they are).

EDIT TO ADD: You can increase his veggies, the variety might help file down his teeth and get him to a proper weight. You want him eating hay and veggies, though, not too many pellets. The more pellets the less he'll want hay and veggies. And if he's had issues with calcium in the past, not sure that I'd change to a pellet with a higher calcium content, so let me check the 15/23 version. It might be higher. And it sounds like he was getting lousy care before he got to the pet store which is another sign that he may dental issues, he was probably on an all-pellet diet.

If you were planning on neutering him anyway, I'd just make sure have an exam and a blood test prior to the neuter (which is pretty simple surgery for a boy), and they can take an x-ray (or see it visually) and file down his teeth at the same time. So this is good!

Oh, the photos should just be their 'large' forum size, I think 600 across? Its a pre-set measurement.




sas :clover:
 
Excerpt From:
The Veterinarian


Common problems in rabbits and ferrets

http://www.theveterinarian.com.au/clinicalreview/article500.asp

MARK SIMPSON


Of all the gastroenteric problems we see in rabbits, dental disease is the most common. And while dental problems are occasionally due to congenital (possibly inherited) malocclusion, the vast majority of cases are a result of a progressive syndrome caused by poor diet.

Inappropriate levels of dietary protein, calcium, and vitamin D, coupled with inadequate dental wear are strongly implicated in the aetiology. The syndrome of acquired dental disease is characterised by an alteration in the orientation, then shape, and possibly structure of the teeth and the consequent development of malocclusion. It is my opinion that the altered wear (leading to altered pressure at the tooth roots) and generous supply of protein and calcium in inappropriate diets, permitting ready remodelling of the bones of the jaw, are causative factors in the majority of rabbit dental disease.

As a result of this re-orientation, sharp spurs can develop on the cheek teeth that penetrate surrounding soft tissues of the cheek or tongue. In particular I find lacerations and ulcerations of the tongue are intensely painful and affected rabbits do not eat or groom effectively.

Though the incisors are most commonly treated dental problem in rabbits, I believe they constitute only a small proportion of problems - most rabbit teeth problems are associated with the cheek teeth. I have seen several rabbits with bilateral, medially directed spurs of the cheek teeth of the lower jaw literally trapping or skewering the tongue in an immobile position.

Rabbits with spurs are often salivating, which gives rise to the lay term slobbers. Gut stasis is, for multiple reasons, a common sequelae. In some cases the appearance of the teeth in the mouth is normal, and the roots are the site of the pathology. In cases where the clinical sign indicate dental problem but oral examination is within normal limits, radiographs of the head, to assess the tooth roots, are indicated.

The tooth roots are significant as they are frequently the site of abscessation, which may be the first clinical sign the owners identify as a problem. These abscesses will lead to severe osteomyelitis, with draining sinuses on the face, and are an absolute disaster. While occasional anecdotal stories of resolution are told, the vast majority of these abscesses require intense and complicated debridement and the use specialised treatments such as antibiotic-impregnated methyl methacrylate pellets or Consil[sup]â[/sup] to have even a hope of remission.

There is a constant risk of recurrence with these abscesses, and anything that can be done to avoid them is preferable to trying to treat them. One of the factors that we associate with these abscesses is the use of nail clippers to effect trimming, predominantly of the incisors. This technique has been associated with longitudinal microfractures of the tooth, which provides an excellent avenue of access for bacteria of the mouth to enter the tooth apices and begin a problem. For this reason we strongly recommend avoiding the use of nail clippers to trim the teeth.

Once there are spurs affecting the mucosa of the oral cavity the only successful treatment is removal of the spurs under general anaesthesia. It must be emphasised however that this is a temporary measure, and that trimming the teeth will need to be repeated once every six to 16 weeks for the rest of the rabbits life.

To anaesthetise these patients I use the protocol developed by Dr Ron Rees-Davies that I call rabbit DTK: Domitor[sup]â[/sup] (medetomidine 1mg/mL) at 30ug/kg, Torbugesic[sup]â[/sup] (butorphanol 10mg/mL) at 0.10mg/kg, and ketamine (100mg/mL) at 1mg/kg, which gives about 0.10mL Domitor[sup]â[/sup], 0.03mL Torbugesic[sup]â[/sup] and 0.03mL ketamine for a 3kg rabbit, which I inject intravenously as a single bolus. This usually allows enough anaesthesia for cheek tooth examination and burring.

I then intubate the rabbit and provide supply oxygen, and then I am in a position to provide additional gaseous anaesthesia if the need arises

My experience with local anaesthetic blocks in rabbits has not been as good as those used in cats and dogs. This is not totally surprising, as the sites, especially that for mandibular blocks, are much more difficult to access than in other species. I no longer attempt regional blocks for this purpose in rabbits.

Some specialised equipment is necessary to trim the cheek teeth of rabbits. There are many rabbit mouth gags, and some of these may be viewed at Dr David Clarke’s web page at http://www.k9gums.com.au/page7.html. I find the concept of two-way action to be critical so that the jaws are opened and then the cheeks are effectively “dilated” one side at a time. I therefore have the jaws held open with a standard small animal gag.

I then have an assistant use wooden tongue depressors to expose each part of the cheek teeth. A Dremel[sup]â[/sup] tool with a long bit is then used to burr all the cheek teeth to about a millimetre above the gum line. I find that if I slide off the tooth I do not damage the mucosa, (nor any expensive gags), but simply the wooden tongue depressor.

There is some controversy about how much to remove from the teeth. Some practitioners remove only the offending spur. It is not my aim to restore normal occlusion. By the time these procedures are required any return to normal occlusion is impossible as there have been irreversible changes to the tooth roots and dental disease will be permanent.

Some reports suggest burring will lead to heat necrosis of the tooth roots but I have seen no evidence in the many cases I deal with to support that contention. However there is good evidence to suggest that occlusive pressure will drive affected teeth back into their sockets, and this disrupts the normal anatomy of the tooth apex. The gingival attachment and the periosteum are damaged.

Once again, as in the case of microfractures of the incisors, bacteria of the oral cavity can reach the tooth root and surrounding bone.

By burring to within a millimetre of the gingival margin some of this occlusal pressure is relieved, and the likelihood of tooth root abscesses and associated osteomyelitis decreased. My clinical impression has been that rabbits that have their teeth shortened this way also return to eating more quickly, possibly because the root elongation has been painful.


 
I worry too that there might be an underlying tooth issue, because of the watery eyes. However, I don't think he'd be able to eat that much food with bad teeth! I would get him checked by a vet for internal parasites. He doesn't look very skinny to me, however if he's eating 1/2c of pellets a day I would expect him to be heavier. My adult bunnies get 1 T of pellets each a day.
 
He hasn't had a wet face since I brought him home. It was actually his left eye. The vet felt like it was allergies because they were using what looked like sawdust for bedding. He gave him an injection, and two days later it was cleared up.

Everytime I look at him he's either eating hay or pellets. I've never seen him drop anything. I've seen him make a nest of hay in a different corner, then lay on it and eat it. Come to think of it, I'm 95% sure the vet did a dental exam on him when I took him right after we got him. I know for a fact I took a fecal in and it was negative. I hate that I can't remember for sure about the dental.

So, do you think when I take him in for his neutering I can just have them look at his teeth while he's under? They wouldn't need to do an xray then, would they? I have to pay off my $420 vet bill before I can do anything. They have $150 in hold checks though. I wish there were a way to tell his age more definitively.
 
As far as the teeth....the concern is the roots of the upper arcade causing an ocular concern. It is possible an overgrown lower arcade is causing a problem but most of the time it would be an upper root of a pre-molar. Fecal floats are notoriously inaccurate. If we have any thoughts about parasites, we treat. Panacur will take care of the most common parasites except coccidia. Many vets still use sulfa (afamily of antiobiotics)to treat coccidia but it isn't very effective and putting sulfa. I use Ponazuril against coccidia.

I have to say that the article thatPipp has posted is probably the first time I have seen a vet say something that I have been saying all along....dietary issues particularly in relation to a lack of calcium and Vitamin D...leads to dental issues.

Randy
 
The Vet should be able to assess his weight and look at his teeth while he's under, yup, but he needs to know what he's looking for.

Was the shot the bunny had antibiotics? If it cleared up his problem that's another indication of a tooth root issue, like Randy said (in English!), its likely the upper molar root and it affected the eye. At this stage not sure you can or should do much more than keep an eye on it and keep him on the healthy diet and hope for the best. The root shouldn't be a major unless its infected, and then antibiotics and/or a trim may be a better bet than removing the molar, anyway.

Watch for another flare up of the watery eye or any decrease in his food intake.

I honestly think this rabbit had bad care before judging by the calcium comment and what is likely overgrown teeth, but I also think you're taking great care of him and he's getting better under your care and the weight loss may be a good weight loss.

But the Vet needs to confirm that.

And for some reason bunnies with dental issues seem to lose weight even when they appear to be eating. I was told it was because of the way they were chewing, but I haven't confirmed that with other sources.


sas :clover:
 
I meant to post, but it's been crazy around here... He has actually started gaining some of the weight back. It seems like I remember reading somewhere that male rabbits go into musk like elephants do and they sometimes lose weight. I may be making it up, but I would almost swear I read it somewhere. Emmett and my dog got into a fight the other day. My Chihuahua was in the cage eating rabbit poop and Emmett attacked him. No injuries, thank God. So now no dogs in the room with Emmett on the loose and I doubt seriously Pooters will be around any of the other critters period.
 
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