***emergency please help asap***

[Liung]

No, yeah, I had to withhold myself from getting pretty ranty myself. "Lahi was a great bunny" "just remember that you've given him a good life..." I restrained myself to "he's still alive, why are people using past tense?!" and one person backtracked "given him a good life up to this point" and just... I know what they meant, or rather, that they didn't mean anything by it. But it's kinda still a big neon "hey we think it's a foregone conclusion" sign.

No one's using past tense anymore, they're just talking about how hard it is to let a pet go and how I shouldn't worry, he knows I love him.

I did get one facebook message from my cousin though (doubly precious as his mother estranged herself from the family when we were children, and only now as adults are we starting to re-connect) and it just touched my heart with how supportive and non-judgemental it was:

When i was younger my dog sophie got hit by a car and broke her hip sockets. We had to decide between surgery that would have left her in pain her whole life and unable to even use small stairs and putting her down. It hurts a lot to know your little buddy is in a bad spot, and its never fun having to decide how the rest of its life will play out. All you can do is make sure that hes as happy and healthy as you can make him. Do whatever you can to make him happy, because even if it turns for the worst he'll know you love him and that youve done everything you could to make him happy. even if it doesnt seem like it, he'll know you love and care for him.

Just explained why he understood, summed up the problem nicely, and then gave unconditional support without ever saying if he thought one way or the other was the right choice. :')

 

[JBun]

Sometimes antibiotics can cause some digestive upset, but I can't see why it would cause any other issues even if it was a tumor instead. If it is a tumor there may not be much that can be done, but if an abscess, the antibiotic could prove life saving. Plus you already know from the eye discharge, that there was and maybe still is, an infection involved. You can always ask the vet about just starting the antibiotic for now to see if it helps.

 

[Liung]

I talked to my vet about bicillin, she recognized the type and agreed that we absolutely can give him a shot of antibiotics now. I sent her the URL for the bicillin study, I'm going to make sure she reads it because the results described were very promising, but in the meantime I'm leaving right now to get him a shot.

I'm definitely going to push for bicillin, as if it is successful as the study says he won't require surgery. The study expressedly describes a rabbit who, due to being 7 years old, the owner was reluctant to subject to surgery.

So, definite hope that it is as successful as the study claims! Wish us luck.

We will have to get x-rays to confirm the abscess, but in the meantime things are not looking quite so dire. You guys had the biggest hand in calming me down and giving me hope, so thank you so so much.

 

[kmaben]

Yes, an MRI will be able to find more than an x-ray. However dont knock those x-rays! It could honestly be something as simple as an abcessed tooth and an x-ray is going to find that. Worst case scenario it's an abcess or a tumor behind the eye. And honestly removing an eye is not that difficult in a rabbit. My vet had never done an eye removal on a rabbit and was worried about it. She spoke with another vet out in California and successfully removed Shya's eye with out a hitch. After doing the surgery she admitted that it was easier to remove a rabbits eye than it was a dog eye. For my rabbit though it was the eye itself that was damaged.

As stated previously there are labs that can be done to determine if your rabbit is fit for surgery. A 7 year old rabbit can certainly have surgery done and be just fine. You have to understand though that going under anesthesia there is always a risk. Even if you were going under the knife thats one of the things they tell you.

We understand the financial part of it as we've all been there. I just spent a pretty penny on Franklin for a liver torsion. I still ended up losing him but I did everything I could to ensure his survival. I feel semi ok knowing that I did everything I could even though a 2500 dollar emergency surgery wasnt an option. It's a tough choice when you love them so much and just want them to be with your forever. Best of luck to you.

 

[Liung]

Alright so she looked into the study, and I think she also looked around at what the professional community is saying about it. She thinks that it's rather overly optimistic (and she has a point, 12 rabbits that had undergone 3-12 surgeries without success, it was their last hope, and bicillin miraculously cures them all? It is rather far-fetched) and she said that there was a fair degree of criticism about the results. However, we are going to go ahead with its suggestion of injections every other day for a few weeks, before moving to once or twice a week.

We're also not using bicillin, but derapen. Bicillin is just a brand of a strain of penicillin, penicillin g benzathine/penicillin g procaine. The study mentions that "there are many veterinary pharmaceutical companies that make this antibiotic combination for use in animals" and includes "Dura-pen" in the list, and then says "because there is no standard name for this antibiotic cocktail, I will use the name "bicillin" (small "b") for simplicity's sake". So it's still the same kind of antibiotic mentioned in the study, just not the specific brand.

The study suggests that rabbits under 2.5 kg be dosed with 0.25 mL every other day, and rabbits over 2.5 kg receive 0.5 mL. Lahi's about 5lbs, which is about 2.25 kg. We're giving him a 0.4 mL dose.

(and poor bunny, that needle was huge, and as it turns out .4mL is way more than I've ever been injected with. His butt is probably sooooo sore)

The study claims that there's no side effects, even gut problems, but I got him some probiotics (a brand called Florentero) anyway, 1 mL to be administered orally every day. I am a bit worried, the box says it "restores a regular and efficient intestinal flora" and it is a "nutritional supplement for dogs, cats, rabbits, ferrets, and all other small animals". Uh, aren't the digestive bacteria for carnivores radically different from herbivores?

We're going to keep an eye on what happens for now, see if the protrusion of his eye increases or decreases. Best case scenario, the study was right and the antibiotics will be successful in completely eliminating the abscess. Worst case, it continues to get worse and we move on to surgery options. (X-rays still pending, though)

The thing I'm concerned about now, though, is that the study doesn't mention anything but the dosage for the other rabbits in the study. The rabbit Pal had his abscess drained and then had the bicillin, but no such detail was given for the others. Pal clearly had his abscess forming in a place where surgery was not necessary to drain it. Lahi's is behind his eye--there is no pus. There is no discharge. Can an abscess go away if it's not drained?

Oh, and because the universe clearly hates us and refuses to allow us nice things, he's also got a hard bump on the back of his ear, and when I pointed it out to the vet she said growths are very rare in rabbits, she's only seen one before and it looked nothing alike, she has no idea what this is, and the only way to find out would be to scrape it off and send it to a lab for testing. Which would be very expensive. JOY.

We're just going to keep an eye on it for now. Head abscess slightly more urgent.

 

[kmaben]

Where is the bump located? And is it just the one? Myxomatosis appears as pimple like bumps on the base of the ears, nose, and or genitals. It can also cause bulging eyes, fever, and swelling of certain areas. It's spread by biting insects like fleas, ticks, mosquitos.

You can find more information if you google it but it looks really terrble. Not all strains end in death like google says. I have a Myxy positive rabbit I acquired and he's had it for three years. He wasnt living in the most ideal conditions and his previous owner said it only flared up every other year. When he initially got it he got really sick but that was all. He has one "bump" on his nose and one on his scrotum and those are the only signs he has a flare up. Might be worth mentioning to the vet as it's not very common stateside.

 

[JBun]

Some of your best info regarding the use of pen g for abscesses, is going to be finding personal stories from other rabbit owners. Some of the accounts do have abscesses that weren't removed or drained, but they seemed to diminish when just the antibiotics were given. Here are just a few I could find.
http://rabbitabscess.wordpress.com/
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f27/abscess-rabbits-helpful-info-72073/
http://ontariorabbits.org/health/abcesses
http://therabbitadvocate.blogspot.com/2009/06/health-special-new-developments-in.html
http://www.hopperhome.com/hops.htm

To find more, just do a search 'bicillin abscess rabbit'.

Another cause for a hard growth, could be the papilloma virus.
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Skin_diseases/Viral_diseases/Pap/Papilloma.htm

Your poor bun just isn't catching any breaks

Fibreplex is the only rabbit formulated probiotic that I'm aware of, and this is pretty much only available in the UK or some other European countries. If you are in the US, Benebac seems to be the best alternative for rabbits. Other ones that might be used are ones made for horses, like Probios, though I have had issues using it so prefer Benebac at this point. Basically you need a probiotic that doesn't contain any dairy.

 

[Liung]

About draining the abscess
The study on bicillin had links to success stories, but I carefully read them all and all the rabbits either had the abscess surgically removed or drained before the application of bicillin, or in the cases where no surgery happened, the rabbits had pus discharged somewhere, usually their mouth. Which seems to indicate that, once the abscess's growth was halted, the pus drained naturally. Which makes me worry that even if the antibiotics are as effective as the study claims, it won't do anything but halt the problem, as the pus produced by the abscess will still be there, unable to get out from behind his eye. Understand, there's been no discharge whatsoever. Even with the conjunctivitus, I doubted that it could actually be that because all the cases I found of it included pus. Lahi only had the part of his eye called the conjunctiva swollen. So right now, again, there's no pus. His eye is just protruding. The only reason we're so certain it's an abscess is because of how quickly it appeared, and because the conjunctivitus is almost certainly a symptom, and highly suggests infection.

Granted it doesn't SEEM to be causing him problems right now, we might have caught it early enough... but if it's big enough to force his eye out of place, then the other side of it might be pressing against important things too, like his brain. And who's to say that the pus might not just get infected and cause another abscess if it's not removed? One case study I read seemed to support that an abscess, even if it's not life-threatening, might cause other abscesses if left alone. The case study had one sorry bun who had abscesses on top of abscesses. So if the antibiotics will not reduce the pus, Lahi might have to get surgery anyway. (Though a surgical incision to drain pus is probably way easier than the surgery required to completely remove the entire abscess and debrade (scrape) the area, likely removing his eye in the process.)

The other thing the case studies had, however, was several people singing praises for the helpfulness of the author of the clinical trials, who developed the bicillin treatment. An email to contact her for queries etc was included on the page, so I've emailed her to see what she thinks. The page's last update seems to be 2003, but who knows. She might be able to tell me more, both because she's a professional who is an expert in bicillin treatment, and because she will have seen many different cases where it was used as a treatment.

I'll definitely read those personal stories, though, see if there's any where there was neither surgery nor natural draining of pus.

About the probiotic
As for the probiotic, I looked carefully at the ingredients, and it did say "contains no animal __" and then a word that I took to mean that it wasn't made from animal meat or whatever, but might have just meant byproducts (It's not in front of me right now). I did get my sister to look at it, her horse has had so many health problems she's probably halfway to becoming a livestock vet herself (most of Ben's problems are with his hooves, which doesn't really translate to bunnies, but she helps a lot with the general stuff) and she didn't see anything wrong with it, thought it was pretty similar to the stuff she gives Ben sometimes. She told me not to be so paranoid, and no really, there's nothing suspicious about a 40% fat content, fat does not mean animal fat, calm down. I'm going to continue researching to make sure that it's safe for rabbits, though.

About the bump
And then there's the bump. Sigh.

I discovered it when I was rubbing the back of his head, and I noticed a hard spot on the edge of the shell of his ear, right near the base. If compared to a human, I'd say it was on the outer edge of the earlobe (assuming the earlobe wasn't detatched).

At first I thought it was a scab, as the top seemed a bit flaky like it might come off if picked at... But then on closer inspection, it was only the top of the bump that looked flaky, while the whole thing was hard, and it wasn't any different colour. So, not a scab.

My second thought was that it reminded me of a wart. Not the kind that's flat and wildly contagious but the kind that only really appears one at a time, raised and hard, with a rough surface.

What concerned the vet was that the fur still grew normally there. Which is why I don't have pictures of it--it's hard to see normally, when I know it's there and have his fur pushed aside to see it better. I would never have found it if I hadn't touched that exact spot. It's only really perceivable through touch and a lot of squinting. It's very, very tiny--maybe about the size of a really big zit.

Looking at pictures of myxomatosis, I'm pretty sure it doesn't look like that. For one, those seemed to cause bald spots, and grow in places on the face where there wasn't much fur in the first place (edge of eyes and nose). They also looked very round, where this is more... uh, the myxomatosis bumps look boulder-shaped, this feels more mountain shaped? There's no roundness to the sides.

Also, we live in Canada, a few hours from Toronto. Even the places that it sometimes pops up in the USA are very far from here (basically we're across the Great Lakes from Buffalo and Detroit), and Lahi hasn't had contact with any strange buns since we got Delilah (he briefly met her sister Scarlet). He has spent a lot of time in the vet's office lately, but the vet specifically said she's only seen one growth on rabbit before and it looked nothing alike.

Similar defense against where he would have picked it up for the papilloma, but it sounds much more likely, especially the "keratinized horny wart" part, since I described it myself as being like a wart. Google isn't very helpful, though. I can confidently say it looks nothing like what shows up if you type in "rabbit papilloma".

But basically we're back to the more urgent things to think about right now. As far as I can tell the growths that are considered serious are the ones that grow. I don't even know how long it's been there, Lahi's not one for being touched like Delilah is, and he is particularly sensitive about his ears.

I thought it might be causing him pain, as he was flinching both when I and when the vet inspected and poked at it, but she then poked his other ear and he flinched just the same. He just really hates his ears being touched. Or being touched at all, really. In addition, many kinds of growth seem to be able to go away on their own. With that in mind, we're just going to keep a close eye on it for any change in size.

 

[Liung]

IT'S TOTALLY WORKING!!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

On Saturday, I had a friend over, and I was explaining Lahi's situation to her. At some point, I said, "Look at how much more his left eye is protruding than his right" and she said "Really? I can't tell."

After a moment of how can you not tell?! I looked closer... and sure enough, she was right. I could tell only because I was looking for it!

IT'S NOT IMMEDIATELY NOTICEABLE AT A GLANCE!!

THIS IS HUGE PROGRESS!!

He had his first injection last Thursday, March 13th. We skipped the Saturday injection because he was off his food, but then during his Monday injection I asked the vet what she thought and she TOTALLY AGREED.

I also have been taking pictures after every vet appointment, so I can compare and keep track and such... The pictures are not particularly good, as my camera is crap at close-up pictures normally, and the macro feature is both giving me great difficulty focusing, and Lahi's breathing is too much movement for a good macro picture... Also in my attempt to get the pictures today they all vanished into a void of corruption and it took me hours to retrieve them, but the corruption didn't do them any favours...

But I think you can see enough to tell that his eye is, in fact, receding!

*RUNS AROUND SCREAMING FOR A BIT*

And just think. If it weren't for you guys being unspeakably awesome and helpful, I would have been left thinking that the only option was surgery. I might not have been able to afford it. He might not have survived it. It might not even have solved anything (seriously the number of stories I was finding where the rabbits had well over 3 surgeries was unbelievable).

So in all possibility, you guys totally saved his life. Words cannot even express how grateful I am to you.

So now, we continue with the treatment. Because of how his appetite dropped the day after the first injection, the vet wants to do them every four days, rather than the every other day suggested by the study. Now that we know it's working, though, I think I might ask her to go back to every other day. I will hand-feed him, I will make pellet smoothies for him and feed them through an oral syringe every day to make sure he gets enough to eat if that's what it takes. Abscesses need to be completely eradicated in order to prevent a relapse, and if it takes too long, or worse there's a relapse and we have to do this again, there's a chance of the bacteria becoming resistant to the antibiotics. And just NO.

We will have to get an x-ray or something soon, so that we can know with better surety when it's completely gone... better to take an x-ray while it's still large so we know what to look for. Also maybe find out the cause. Lahi had a dentist appointment January 14th to get rid of a spur on one of his molars that was rubbing on his tongue. It hadn't caused any sores, it was just a little raw. I'd brought him in because he was very unenthusiastic about his food and wasn't finishing it all, and the tooth spur was found. So maybe there's something wrong with the root of his teeth? Or maybe the dental procedure itself did something? Who knows.

Actually now that I'm looking at it...

January 9th I bring him to the vet for appetite loss
January 14th He has a tooth spur removed
February 13th I panic over his swollen conjunctiva
March 11th We notice his protruding eye
March 13th he starts his injections

I'm sensing a trend here. If anything happens with him the second weekend of April, I... will rethink my stance on superstition. Maybe invest in an exorcism.

In any case, let's hope that his recovery continues apace!

 

[JBun]

That's so great to hear! You really can see a difference in the pictures. There's a lot less white in the eye showing now.

I agree that it's probably best to continue the injections every other day right now. I know lack of appetite can be a bit unsettling to deal with. but as long as there isn't diarrhea from the antibiotic, and just possibly some nausea causing him not to want to eat, then it's probably best to keep going at it aggressively so that it has less of a chance to keep worsening or develop any resistance to the antibiotic. You can always syringe feed, like you mentioned, to make up for any loss of appetite and keep his digestion moving well when he doesn't feel like eating on his own. Better to keep the antibiotic working at full force then back off too early and risk the infection worsening. If you keep on top of hand feeding enough food and water when he does have a lack of appetite, you shouldn't experience any motility or stasis issues.

I'm really glad your little guy seems to be doing so much better

 

[Liung]

So, it's been nearly half a year since Lahi's retrobulbar abscess was declared gone, and I'm thrilled to say that he's been doing great.

I'd like to thank all of you for being so wonderfully supportive and helpful through all of this. Words cannot express how grateful I am.

My poor little man has gone through so much this year.

In January he had to have a tooth spur removed
In February he came down with conjunctivitus
In March he began treatment for a retrobulbar abscess
In April he and Delilah were diagnosed with ulcerative pododermatitis (sore hocks)
In May he was rushed to the vet with noisy breathing
And through it all Delilah's had recurring bursts of social barbering (ripping out the fur on his back because god only knows)

But praise somebody, he's been health problem free since. His appetite has returned, he's putting on weight, he's not getting munched on too much by Delilah...

And most importantly, he's happy.

His eye has completely receded, it's not protruding anymore. His face is slightly lopsided now, but it's not too noticeable.

The mysterious bump on his ear is vanished to the point that it's a challenge to find where it used to be. We never did discover what it was.

We actually have very little idea as to how both Lahi and Delilah have sore hocks, as neither are on wire floors, and Lahi is still slightly underweight. Granted, they were on concrete floors, but they had plenty of softer options available to them. In any case, I'm now into a constant effort to improve their living conditions--I've padded the floors with foam exercise mats, protected by clear vinyl and with polar fleece taped over top as a pseudo carpet. I've also begun to build a wire storage cube-condo add-on to their enclosure, which Delilah loves. Lahi's not as fond of it, but her enjoyment of it actually gives him more breathing room.

And the noisy breathing? Matches this (http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Respiratory/Differential/respira_diff.htm). I'd flown into a panic at the time, but the facts remain: it only happens when he's completely relaxed and secure, stops the instant something gets his attention, and while he's doing it I've observed he doesn't track my movements or move his nose at all (so likely he's sleeping). I spoke to my vet, and we've concluded that the noise is in all possibility snoring. My rabbit snores. That, that is just so derpy and adorable I can't even handle it.

(The Medirabbit page's suggestion, "[FONT=&quot]

Is the soft palate weak and floppy, or elongated,as has been observed in some older animals?​

​

[/FONT]" is simply a description of the physical cause of snoring.)

So thank you all again for being so supportive and wonderful during this difficult time. I can never thank you enough.

So have some pictures of Lahi's face (nearly) back to normal, Lahi's sore hocks that I'm carefully keeping an eye on, Lahi and Delilah being cuddle buns, their new condo addition, and Lahi's newfound fascination with staring at himself in mirrors. (No word yet on if he's engaging in the time-honoured lapine activity of social staring, or if he's legitimately admiring himself. In either case he seems to like his reflection very much.)

 

[lovelops]

I'm so glad to hear the updates! I'm so happy to hear that he's better! I was worried about him for a while!
Delia, your lop is quite cute also! I wish them both nothing but good health in the upcoming years!!!

Vanessa

 

[Liung]

Oh god we're back, this time with GI stasis (probably). Making a new thread.
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/showthread.php?p=1048063