Dietary Woes...

[Jenk]

Here's a run-down of Pinkerton's dietary issues (since mid-Sept.). I would like any suggestions of what I might try (even gentle criticisms of what I may be doing wrong)....

1) He was fed a variety of greens, hay and alfalfa-based pellets at the shelter (for five weeks').

2)I fed him the same diet his first night with me; he got mushy poops, so I cut out the greens (temporarily, per the vet's suggestion).

3) He showed signs of bladder sludge (or nearly so) within the first 24 hours' that we had him. The vet suggested I slowly convert to timothy-based pellets using the 1:5 ratio method.

4) His gut was very loud/gurgly, at least from the start of the pellet conversion. I took him off pellets (fed hay only) for three days'; his gut quieted.

5) The vet suggested I slowly re-introduce greens first to see if Pink's gut remained loud. For the most part, it was more quiet, but he started to feel thin.

6) The vet suggested that I again try timothy-based pellets, re-introducing them slowly (1/2 Tbsp./day to start). She theorized that maybe some gurgling was his system's way of adjusting to the diet and that he needed to work through it.

7) Pink's gut was still gurgly on hay, pellets and two greens; but his fecals were normal (as they had been throughout all of this).

8) After hewas eating 1 Tbsp. of pellets/day for about two weeks', he seemed to form a blockage. (He had bloat symptoms that ended with sub-Qs and Metacam. Not sure Simethicone really helped in this case.) He wasn't groomed for a week; I don't know if he just ingested too much hair, or if the pellets somehow caused a build-up of something (gas?) that complicated things.

Now, he's eating hay and a few greens. He's already lost a little weight, andhis gut's still loud and somewhat gushy-feeling (since his bloat-ish episode). I don't know where to go from here.I fear that taking him on/off things isn't helping--yet keeping him on things that make his gut loudseem suspicious, too.

We're awaiting results on blood work and a fecal culture. X-rays show a white-colored shape that'sin hisintestines thatwe can't identify. I can only imagine it being apiece of a willow ring chew toy (buthe shouldn't have an intact piece of it in him anyway). It if is a piece of the ring, it's moving slowly through his system (he's not had the ring in 1.5 weeks'). Could that have caused himthe sudden discomfort as it moved through him (e.g., the pyloric valve)? Ack!

Thank you,

Jenk

 

[pamnock]

Certainly the unidentified mass is a factor to consider that could be causing digestive problems. Until that is resolved/identified, it's difficult to make speculations or suggestions because that cause hasn't been ruled out.

I'd certainly push the fiber and not go overboard on the Simethicone, which can alter the gut pH if given in excess. This is especially a concern if the gut pH is normal. You don't want to push it into alkalosis and cause additional problems.

Pam

 

[Jenk]

pamnock wrote:

Certainly the unidentified mass is a factor to consider that could be causing digestive problems. Until that is resolved/identified, it's difficult to make speculations or suggestions because that cause hasn't been ruled out.

The vet suggested that we take one more lateral x-ray in about a week's time to see if the object has moved farther along (or even "disappeared" from) his system.

What she noted is that the object is inside of his intestines, not outside of them. So she believes it to be an ingested object rather than a form of mass/tumor.

I'd certainly push the fiber and not go overboard on the Simethicone, which can alter the gut pH if given in excess. This is especially a concern if the gut pH is normal. You don't want to push it into alkalosis and cause additional problems.

To me, it's baffling, the fact that his gut's been overly loud ever since I slowly began converting him to timothy-based pellets. You wouldn't think that a good amount of fiber might cause such gassiness.

He's not received Simethicone a lot (maybe 5-6 total doses), but Ithank you for letting me know that it alters the gut pH. I'llkeep that in mind from here on out.

I don't foresee anyoption but to keep him on hay and parsleyuntil we get the test results (and possibly the second x-ray).

 

[pamnock]

The soluble fiber in the hay, parsley & veggies can be a source of gas as they digest.

Using any product such as Simethicone temporarily alters stomach pH to relieve painful symptoms, but can case far worse problems long-germ.

But without the mystery of the mass being solved, it's difficult to speculate on treatments.

Pam

 

[Jenk]

pamnock wrote:

The soluble fiber in the hay, parsley & veggies can be a source of gas as they digest.

Right now, he's only getting parsley (curly and plain). Long story short, I've not had enough time to introduce him to other veggies 'cause the dietary issues have been ongoing. And when I had to mess with his pellet consumption so much, I didn't want to then throw additional green types at him.

In the past, when I first stopped pellets and re-introduced greens slowly, his gut seemed normal, in terms of sound; this time, it's still loud. :?

But without the mystery of the mass being solved, it's difficult to speculate on treatments.

True. I'm hopeful that between the remaining test results and one more x-ray, we'll know more.

 

[Maureen Las]

I don't think that you are doing anything wrong at all.. it is something going on with him.
Did you treat him for internal parasites?

This is inexpensive and won't hurt him.

My bun, Rudy, was from a shelter and had been a stray meaning he was outside eating off the ground.When I took him for his first physical I took along a fecal pelletfortesting which came back negative.
I started to feed him greens (the same ones that I had fed him at the shelter as I was caring for him there also )

he had blow out diarrhea everytime he ate greens which I could not figure out at all .
I just stopped the greens entirely and he was fine.

Several weeks later he went in for a neuter. the day after his neuter he passed a piece of a tapeworm in his poops. I took the specimen to the vets who confirmed a tapeworm and he was treated with Droncit ,; I believe that it was one dose per week X 2

After the first treatment the rest of the worm came out. The neuter surgery hadapparently damaged the worm

tapeworm eggs do not always show in fecals so are not always detectable that way.

after he was treated twiceI resumed the greens which he handled perfectly and still does.
Droncit is specifially for tapeworms andPink doesn't necessarily have one but he could have another type of parasite that is affecting his GI tract.


http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=39593&forum_id=10
just a thought

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

I don't think that you are doing anything wrong at all.. it is something going on with him. Did you treat him for internal parasites?

My bun, Rudy, was from a shelter and had been a stray meaning he was outside eating off the ground.When I took him for his first physical I took along a fecal pelletfortesting which came back negative.

Like Rudy, Pink had a fecal float that came back negative. But I'm very glad that you suggested parasite treatment, since he, like Rudy, was found outside as a stray. He could very well have something that's being undetected. (I'm hopeful that the blood work might indicate parasitic activity, but I realize that's not always the case. :?)

At this time, I'm thinking about stopping the greens until he gets a follow-up x-ray; but I'm also worried that the starting/stopping of pellets and greens so frequently is messing with his system, too.

after he was treated twiceI resumed the greens which he handled perfectly and still does. Droncit is specifially for tapeworms andPink doesn't necessarily have one but he could have another type of parasite that is affecting his GI tract.

After Pink's test results are in, I'm going to talk to the vet about treating him for parasites.(Same thing regarding Emma, who's going for another round oftests tomorrowto see if we can even find a hint to the cause of her stasis. Could also be parasites...)

 

[Maureen Las]

Did Pink have a full blood panel??
To be totally honest I think that a high eosinophil count is suggestive of parasites but that is not always the case nor does it isolate the parasite

When I was attempting to learn if (RIP) Gabriel had coccidia I had 3 fecals done as his eosinophil count was high when I first rescued him. A few months later it was back to normal and none of the fecals indicated coccidia. he was never treated
In other words your vet may feel that Pink doesn't have parasites bcause his eosinophil count is normal...

i don't know if a normal eosinophil count means that the rabbitcannot have parasites

maybe you could pm randy and ask him that.

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

Did Pink have a full blood panel??
To be totally honest I think that a high eosinophil count is suggestive of parasites but that is not always the case nor does it isolate the parasite

He did; we're waiting on the results. (I'm hoping to have them by tomorrow.)

In the past, another vet mentioned that Emma's (and Zoe's) eosinophillevel was (at that time) "normal." So he didn't want to do parasitic treatment. But I've since learned that false negatives can abound when it comes to parasites (internal and external).

i don't know if a normal eosinophil count means that the rabbitcannot have parasites

I think that Rami on EB already mentioned that it doesn't necessarily need to be elevated in order for parasites to be present.So if nothing is found "off" with Emma's blood work, fecal culture and/or teeth, I'm going to push for parasite treatment.

I think parasites may be a strong possibilityfor Pink--even stronger than for Emma, since he was a stray.

 

[Maureen Las]

I agree with you about Pink

Iwas volunteering at the shelter the entire summer with the rabbits (including Rudy)and adopted him after he had been there several months. hewas one fat rabbit so parasites don't necessarily make a bun thin.

I would bring greens to all the rabbits and I never had a caretaker tell me they were cleaning up diarrhea from him the next day. ...

that is hard to believe because at that time they considered the rabbits to be nuisances

As soon as i got him home igave him his greens. and the next AM there was frank diarrhea all over his area... I was really shocked.
i tried greens a few more days and then quit them
If he had not been neutered I would never have known...,I would have eliminated the greens and left it at that. An initial exam for a bun doesn't include labwork soI would not have had it done .
he would still have a tapeworm now:shock:

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

I agree with you about Pink

...I would bring greens to all the rabbits and I never had a caretaker tell me they were cleaning up diarrhea from him the next day. ...

...As soon as i got him home igave him his greens. and the next AM there was frank diarrhea all over his area... I was really shocked. i tried greens a few more days and then quit them

Yes, it would seem that vital info. on shelter buns somehow falls by the wayside.

An initial exam for a bun doesn't include labwork soI would not have had it done.

The vet suggested that I get a base panel for Pink on his first wellness visit. I didn't get it because I: 1)thought it would be extraneous, and 2) didn't want to spend anymore money than was absolutely necessary.

he would still have a tapeworm now:shock:

:shock:is right!